Topic: Fuel injection conversion (edit) fixed a few things

[deuce_454]

retro rocket... why dont we all settle this debate once and for all.... you go out and attempt to kick start your bike, efi and all... if it works let us know 

[Retro Rocket]

retro rocket... why dont we all settle this debate once and for all.... you go out and attempt to kick start your bike, efi and all... if it works let us know  

I will definitely let everyone know if it works but i will keep researching it to make sure it will otherwise i'll try a different approach.  
I was just thinking, would it be possible to have some sort of primer for the injection,so when you kick it it fires enough to start the injection. I was just using the mower and it has a little diaphragm primer and it started me thinking.....


Mick

[Laminar]

retro rocket... why dont we all settle this debate once and for all.... you go out and attempt to kick start your bike, efi and all... if it works let us know  

I will definitely let everyone know if it works but i will keep researching it to make sure it will otherwise i'll try a different approach.  
I was just thinking, would it be possible to have some sort of primer for the injection,so when you kick it it fires enough to start the injection. I was just using the mower and it has a little diaphragm primer and it started me thinking.....


Mick

The way I understand it is the diaphragm primer is used to add extra fuel to a carb, so it's irrelevant on a fuel-injected system. The Megasquirt needs the engine to turn over a couple of times so that it knows WHERE the engine is in its rotation and when exactly to inject fuel.

[754]

Yeah, primer bottle, thats how I used to start my Ducati MACH 1 .. 1 squirt, and it would start..

[MJL]

Like I said, no easy way to mount the sprag to light metal rotating element..

You are the first one to post up why it is kick only, everyone else just quotes the website. So, not knowing, I called Ken.  Then I read your post.

Interesting, as i understood it,  you just wanted to know if it worked with electric start..?

Mick

I thought it would because I didn't know that the sprag was on the alternator. Now I know better.

[Sam Green Racing]

I'm not 100% sure but, if you want an alternator with a higher output and still retain the starter, how about the CB750A unit. I think it kicks out quite a bit more and might fit on Ks and Fs, you'll have to ask the experts though.

Sam.

[Retro Rocket]

The way I understand it is the diaphragm primer is used to add extra fuel to a carb, so it's irrelevant on a fuel-injected system. The Megasquirt needs the engine to turn over a couple of times so that it knows WHERE the engine is in its rotation and when exactly to inject fuel.

I understand how the microsquirt systems work, and i know what you are referring to as a primed carb but obviously we are talking injection here and i think that a series of 4 small lines going into the manifolds  would work. Priming would then squirt fuel into the manifold and be drawn in when kicking allowing the bike to fire and then the injection would take over, this seems very simple to me and i was just wondering if it would work as i see no reason why it wouldn't. Does anyone know how the injection works on modern kick only dirt bikes?

Mick

[MJL]

Why can't you have it automatically enrich when it's cold? 

I don't think that's the real issue here, if you don't spin the motor fast enough it just won't know to start.

[Retro Rocket]

Why can't you have it automatically enrich when it's cold? 

I don't think that's the real issue here, if you don't spin the motor fast enough it just won't know to start.

Well you probably could, i was addressing the issue of getting the engine to spin fast enough to have the fuel injection to take over and i think priming may work, in saying that if the engine only has to spin at 50rpm to start the kick starter will achieve this no worries. The only thing that has me worried is will it turn over long enough for the injection to take over, thats why i thought priming might be the go because it will fire up the engine which should be plenty of revs to start the injection....I'm kind of asking but it seems to make sense as well.

Mick

[bucky katt]

well you need to look no further than the newest crop of efi dirtbikes to know that you can kick start an efi motor.

[754]

How many are kick?
 My brother got a new 250 Yam  this year, it has estart, & ?kick?.. not sure..?

[Retro Rocket]

Gas Gas have been making fuel injected dirt bikes for 5 years and they are electric and kick start..

Mick

[Laminar]

Why can't you have it automatically enrich when it's cold? 

I don't think that's the real issue here, if you don't spin the motor fast enough it just won't know to start.

Well you probably could, i was addressing the issue of getting the engine to spin fast enough to have the fuel injection to take over and i think priming may work, in saying that if the engine only has to spin at 50rpm to start the kick starter will achieve this no worries. The only thing that has me worried is will it turn over long enough for the injection to take over, thats why i thought priming might be the go because it will fire up the engine which should be plenty of revs to start the injection....I'm kind of asking but it seems to make sense as well.

Mick

I was assuming the MegaSquirt was also controlling ignition. If your ignition was done via points or a Dyna then your solution may work.

[Soos]

You guys give me too much to research...

I've been thinking of going alternator, and completely re-doing the electrics.....
Multi spark ignition, and FI......
?




OFf to read a bit..


l8r

[Retro Rocket]

Why can't you have it automatically enrich when it's cold? 

I don't think that's the real issue here, if you don't spin the motor fast enough it just won't know to start.

Well you probably could, i was addressing the issue of getting the engine to spin fast enough to have the fuel injection to take over and i think priming may work, in saying that if the engine only has to spin at 50rpm to start the kick starter will achieve this no worries. The only thing that has me worried is will it turn over long enough for the injection to take over, thats why i thought priming might be the go because it will fire up the engine which should be plenty of revs to start the injection....I'm kind of asking but it seems to make sense as well.

Mick

I was assuming the MegaSquirt was also controlling ignition. If your ignition was done via points or a Dyna then your solution may work.

I have a Dyna ignition...

[750essess]

You can set a prime pulse on the microsquirt so if you werent running ignition it should kick start no problem as long as you get 50+ rpms to trigger the fuel ingection.

[MJL]

Why can't you have it automatically enrich when it's cold? 

I don't think that's the real issue here, if you don't spin the motor fast enough it just won't know to start.

Well you probably could, i was addressing the issue of getting the engine to spin fast enough to have the fuel injection to take over and i think priming may work, in saying that if the engine only has to spin at 50rpm to start the kick starter will achieve this no worries. The only thing that has me worried is will it turn over long enough for the injection to take over, thats why i thought priming might be the go because it will fire up the engine which should be plenty of revs to start the injection....I'm kind of asking but it seems to make sense as well.

Mick

I was assuming the MegaSquirt was also controlling ignition. If your ignition was done via points or a Dyna then your solution may work.

Whether MS controls ignition or not it still has to read a signal to know when to fire the injectors.

Without a knock sensor I don't see the point of having MS control ign.

[Joksa]

Whether MS controls ignition or not it still has to read a signal to know when to fire the injectors.

Normally the injection timing is not relevant, only how often and how long per cycle.

Without a knock sensor I don't see the point of having MS control ign.

Possibility to adjust your advance curve might be a good feature. E.g making the original advancer static and let the MS control the timing.

[Retro Rocket]

You can set a prime pulse on the microsquirt so if you werent running ignition it should kick start no problem as long as you get 50+ rpms to trigger the fuel injection.

Thanks Joska

[750essess]

The advantage to using microquirt to control ignition is can be referenced to manifold pressure instead of rpm. This is a more accurate representation of load often times than just rpm. Also it can set the timing at what ever advance u want independent of rpm, say for instance you have a turbo motor and need to retard timing at full throttle and high load or boost.

[Soos]

The advantage to using microquirt to control ignition is can be referenced to manifold pressure instead of rpm. This is a more accurate representation of load often times than just rpm. Also it can set the timing at what ever advance u want independent of rpm, say for instance you have a turbo motor and need to retard timing at full throttle and high load or boost.

I never knew...... thats interesting!

l8r

[Pinhead]

Yes the Mega/Microsquirt is a very flexible piece of hardware and software. If you let it control your ignition timing you can also set up vacuum advance which is good for about 20% better fuel mileage.

[MJL]

Whether MS controls ignition or not it still has to read a signal to know when to fire the injectors.

Normally the injection timing is not relevant, only how often and how long per cycle.

Right, and for that MS needs an rpm signal, most fuel injection computers read engine speed from the ignition.

[MJL]

Has anyone else beside 750essess done or started a fuel injection conversion on their bike?

[750essess]

I tried to get started on the machining for the alt conversion, but the machinist is on vacation until tuesday. I was thinking it might be easier to have him cut out the center of the original flywheel and start with that.... you machinists out there, does that sound simpler or just retarded. I have also confirmed everything fits in the cover. Another piece will have to be made to locate the stator in the cover, am going to use the three screw locations that hold the field in.