Author Topic: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!  (Read 40729 times)

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #100 on: January 13, 2015, 11:27:39 AM »
Is it really that bad to both have resistor plugs AND 5 kOhms plug caps?

I'm currently using Dyna cables with plug caps, DW-800 Grey silicone, 8mm graphite suppression core with DYNA 5 ohm coils + Hondaman ign + points.
I should not use NGK Iridium plugs with these cables? Or what negative will happen if I use reisitor and 5kohms cables/plugs?
I must use Denso X24ES-U or NGK D8EA with the surpressed wires/caps?

My carb jetting adventure has blackened some plugs. So I need to order some more.
I've learned to never use the expensive iriidium plugs until the ignition and carb float/ jetting are OK (perfect).

Actually, PeWe: that puts the resistance back to what Honda started with in 1967, and kept until the 1975 bikes came out. They used 7500 ohm caps with non-resistor plugs. The resistor-type sparkplugs are about 2200-2500 ohms, so using them with the 5000 ohm caps and the stock coils (1967-1974 types) makes it a long-spark, low-current system again.

The thing most often seen when this Resistor-cap + Resistor Plug setup is applied to a bike that had poor caps and plugs is: it starts a lot easier, especially when cold. This is due to the long-duration spark igniting the cold fuel charge for a longer time. It also extends the high-RPM burn rate, producing more torque at speeds over 7000 RPM. For some reason (urban myths?), people have long thought that the stock Honda system was a "weak spark", maybe because the color of the spark appears yellow when the plug is laid against the head in a spark test (? or something?). But, this appearance is due to our eyes' perception: a short, bright spark appears blue to us, while a longer one has a bit more time to activate our eyes' color sensors (red in particular), which tends to make the spark look orange or yellow. Typically, any arc across a given size gap is going to appear white or blue if very short, or more orange-y if longer. Speaking as an Electrical Engineer who sees LOTs of arcs and sparks in my work (intentional or not!), this has long been my 'view' of it.  :)

In the SOHC4 bikes, starting with the CB500-4 coils, the primary side of the coils changed from 4.6 ohms to 4.4 ohms, indicating a shorter, hotter spark was the goal. The spark energy was then "slowed down" at the plugs by increasing the resistance, making the duration of those coils' sparks about 1.38mS. (This is, BTW, the same as is found on the post-1975 CB750 bikes with the 10,000 ohm caps). The mechanics of how this all works is [painfully] detailed in the Electrical section of my book, and was the sole reason I spent those 2 pages depicting the life-and-death cycle of a single spark from a coil. It itemizes the 'why' behind resistance, and how it can be used to tune a coil-and-plug setup to get the spark you need. Almost every engine benefits from a long-duration spark, but with the waste-spark system we have in these bikes, there is a practical [time] limit of the spark during the overlap cycle (i.e., between exhaust-intake strokes), beyond which it starts to ignite the incoming charge for the next cycle, making it burn up the intake tract toward the carb, causing a "flat spot" in performance (often seen in pod-filter setups). In bikes like the Katana, with its 16k redline, the spark must necessarily be short (or get shortened electronically) above 12000-13000 RPM lest it burn long enough to ignite the 'leftovers' during the exhaust stroke, causing other problems. But, that's all a topic of the 'tana riders... ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Online PeWe

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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #101 on: January 13, 2015, 12:38:37 PM »
Thank you very much Mark for the detailed explanation and your experiences :-) 
I do not like additional flat spot, at least not until my carbs with pods have got correct jetting.

I'll read more in your book, resting 2m behind me in the book shelf. I started to read it from the beginning jumped to the mechanical parts and tuning, will now jump to ignition...
Aha!! Page V-20...Spark wires..
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #102 on: January 13, 2015, 05:06:44 PM »
Ok Mark, I have a question for you, this has been touched on a few times in this thread so i'll ask here. If I were to build a new wiring harness for the 750 from scratch, what gauge wires would you recommend.? We have piles of information on engine performance and what to do to help the engine cope with the alterations , on the forum but one thing that always seems to be missed out on is the actual wiring. It would be great to have a diagram with wires with gauges, relays where needed, capacitors and anything else i've left out, this would be a kind of "high performance" harness. I ask this because some of us use aftermarket ignitions, aftermarket charging systems, system control units, gps gauges and a pile of modern upgrades, it would be great to have a harness that was capable of handling everything without failing or struggling to keep up...?   
What do you think, is this worth pursuing .?
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #103 on: January 16, 2015, 11:11:20 AM »
Ok Mark, I have a question for you, this has been touched on a few times in this thread so i'll ask here. If I were to build a new wiring harness for the 750 from scratch, what gauge wires would you recommend.? We have piles of information on engine performance and what to do to help the engine cope with the alterations , on the forum but one thing that always seems to be missed out on is the actual wiring. It would be great to have a diagram with wires with gauges, relays where needed, capacitors and anything else i've left out, this would be a kind of "high performance" harness. I ask this because some of us use aftermarket ignitions, aftermarket charging systems, system control units, gps gauges and a pile of modern upgrades, it would be great to have a harness that was capable of handling everything without failing or struggling to keep up...?   
What do you think, is this worth pursuing .?

I have done something similar, but in the end it all boiled down to 2 things. Since the distribution wiring on all the electrical loads is adequate (speaking stock OEM loads, here), the only real problem with the OEM harnesses is the size of the BLACK, RED/WHITE, and GREEN main harness wire between the middle of the bike(s) and the headlight distribution. In the past I have simply either run an additional 20 AWG wire for BLACK and GREEN between the middle area and the headlight: Honda mitigated the problem post-1972 by installing the main GREEN ground at the coils, in the middle of the bike, so it didn't have to go so far (under the seat was original location) and it reduced the losses.

If building from scratch, the 1st best thing to do is to install a (flexible) 16 AWG wire for the Red/White circuit, with a high-temperature jacket that won't get brittle when it is occasionally heated up. This isn't much wire: it is only between the battery and the rectifier, and the keyswitch (pre-1973) or the fuseblock (after that). Then, increase the size of the BLACK and GREEN wires in the main harness body to the headlight to 16 AWG. All other wires can be 22 AWG for the loads they carry.

In the OEM harnesses, the splices in the BLACK and GREEN wires in the main body are aged, and were not gas-tight (i.e. airtight) style crimps. So, they have corroded a little now, and this lets them heat and cool. This cycle eventually lets them loosen a bit, and we see the heating at those junctions cause voltage drops, or even melted jackets. Instead, run an extra small-gauge wire to those locations from the main BLACK (fuse) or GREEN (Ground) junction, like to the horn or the voltage regulator, to avoid those splices. This method would actually make a thinner bundle, if you study it, and a more flexible portion where it enters the headlight bucket. Someday when I get to build a 'cafe-from-scratch' bike, this will be done: there will be few wires, but much better electrical performance.
:)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #104 on: January 16, 2015, 02:14:49 PM »
Thanks Mark, detailed and easy to understand.... ;D ;)
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline dave500

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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #105 on: January 17, 2015, 02:48:48 AM »
with that box of parts you got mick youll be starting a project thread now then?your all set to go?

Offline dave500

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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #106 on: January 17, 2015, 06:07:15 PM »
I guess we wont be seeing any photos of your bike out on the road then?

Offline dave500

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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #107 on: January 18, 2015, 12:47:07 AM »
by the time you get a bike on the road cameras will be obsolete,how long now?six years plus and still no photo or bike?

Offline kghost

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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #108 on: January 18, 2015, 01:00:56 AM »
Where's the bike mick?
Stranger in a strange land

Offline dave500

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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #109 on: January 18, 2015, 11:49:06 AM »
and I thought it was only 6.

Offline dave500

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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #110 on: January 18, 2015, 10:51:18 PM »
the suspense is killing us though mick.

Offline dave500

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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #111 on: January 19, 2015, 10:40:14 PM »
relax man!we own this property mick you know that,we have it for sale,my kids are grown up,i didn't do anything wrong in public im just hoping to see some action on your build,i mean its dragging out a bit mick,not being a smart arse but it is.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 10:46:57 PM by dave500 »

Offline dave500

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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #112 on: January 19, 2015, 11:56:06 PM »
sorry you got steamed up,wasnt being smart.