Author Topic: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!  (Read 40712 times)

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Offline HondaMan

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Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« on: February 15, 2008, 08:14:54 PM »
Another toy from the Hondaman bench...the resistors for adding 1 ohm in series with the Dyna or Accel 3-ohm coils, so you can preserve some battery juice and make a healthier charging system on your ride.

If you use other coils, like the Gold Wing 1.5 ohm units, these resistors can be changed to other values, as appropriate. I think the 'Wings use 2.2 ohms in series with those coils (?) ...you Gold Wing gurus can jump in here with the RIGHT answer...so, if you want different OHMS, let me know when ordering (typical price: about $12 plus shipping).

This device mounts across the back of the stock coil mounts for CB750/500 and probably same for 550/400/350F rides (although I doubt the "baby Fours" can handle Dyna 3 ohm coils at all...  :-\ ). It should improve the situation with the 500/550 considerably, and the 750 will be happier with it, as well, ESPECIALLY if you are running Dyna with 3-ohm coils. The Dyna S, in particular, raises coil current consumption quite a bit over stock: adding the 3-ohm coils on top of that can really draw lots of unnecessary current from the charging system. Adding this "Resistor Pack" will help mitigate this problem, in accordance with Dyna's published recommendations. If you have the manual that came with Dyna's 3-ohm coils, it starts out with, "It is recommended that a 1 ohm resistor be inserted in series with the +12v supply to the coil(s)...". The resulting spark voltage is still MUCH higher than stock Honda coils, and the coils run cooler to boot.

« Last Edit: March 08, 2009, 08:09:38 AM by HondaMan »
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Offline 05c50

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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2008, 08:44:25 PM »
I'm no Guru, but the Gl1000 manual says 3 ohms,plus or minus 10 per cent

.....Paul
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2008, 10:36:10 PM »
Hondaman,

How will this work with 3 ohm coils and a Dyna III plus a halogen bulb ? There is no way in hell that I can pull the holy grail of 14.5V with my set up.
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2008, 12:13:05 AM »
I have no first hand experience with the GL1000 coils.  But, it was my understanding that they used the same arrangement as coil equipped autos, which also had a ballast resistor.  The ballast resistor was in circuit during the standard key-switch-on scenarios, but bypassed when the starter motor was engaged.

The starter motor normally drags the system voltage down when engaged, making the spark weak.  Low primary ohm coils make a hotter spark during such events.  While the engine is running, the high current draw is diminished by inserting a resistor in the path.

Assuming the gl coils are 1.5 ohm ( I thought they were higher than that), to make the circuit draw equivalent of the stock 5 ohm coil would require a 3.5 ohm resistor.  Not only would the resistor waste 23 watts better spent in lighting or battery restoration, but it means you are running the coils on about 4 volts, as the resistor with the coil in series becomes a voltage divider.  I'd be surprised they would make spark at that low a voltage.  But, like I say, I don't have first hand experience.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2008, 02:43:03 AM »
Woohoo! Put me down for 2 sets please Mark! (will they work with a Martek ignition and Martek coils?) Cheers, Terry. ;D
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Offline 750duo

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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2008, 03:43:33 AM »
TwoTired

I believe that the issue is with limiting the "high inrush currents" to the coil and damage to the breaker points (translation: burning up) and not wasting "23 Watts". As long as the magnetic field around the coil has built to its maximum value before the points open (di/dt) the ignition system will run much more efficiently by limiting the current in the primary winding.

Hondaman

My magnetic theory is a little rusty - fooled around with designing cd ignitions back in the late 70's. Perhaps you have a better explanation for our fellow enthusiasts.


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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2008, 04:06:15 AM »
I'm pretty dumb - are you saying that this gizmo will help my K7 750 running stock coils and dyna s?

If it will I'm up for a set too!!!!

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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2008, 05:20:07 AM »
put me down for a set too hondaman!

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2008, 11:31:52 AM »
TwoTired

I believe that the issue is with limiting the "high inrush currents" to the coil and damage to the breaker points (translation: burning up) and not wasting "23 Watts". As long as the magnetic field around the coil has built to its maximum value before the points open (di/dt) the ignition system will run much more efficiently by limiting the current in the primary winding.

Hondaman

My magnetic theory is a little rusty - fooled around with designing cd ignitions back in the late 70's. Perhaps you have a better explanation for our fellow enthusiasts.




There's several reasons for the limiting resistor in these older designs:
1. Coils were designed to run at 7-9 volts to allow for starting sags.
2. Inrush currents were limited at low RPM by the resistance, specifically to preserve the points. This was done because the coils for a multi-cylinder distributor must charge very quickly, and are designed to, on purpose: the inrush at 13.8 volts can reach 20 amps on a standard Ford coil at 600 RPM, for example.
3. The resistance, plus the condensor's capacitance and the coil's inductance, are all designed together to "tune" the peak voltage over a broader RPM band. These are all tunable items, but it's not often done, except by engineers (like me!). Example: Ford's stock ignition coils were used for the 427 SOHC engine, good to 8500 RPM, in the mid-1960s. All they did was reduce the condensor to .22uF from the normal .26uF and reduced the resistor wire to .7 ohms from 1.1 ohms stock. Points life suffered, so they added a transistorized ignition to switch it all (sound familiar?  ;) ).

That's where it came from...now, it's up to us to bring it into this century.  :)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2008, 11:32:58 AM »
I'm no Guru, but the Gl1000 manual says 3 ohms,plus or minus 10 per cent

.....Paul

Thanks, Paul! That measures favorably with the "usual" 4.0 to 4.5 ohms for all the other Honda systems I am familiar with...
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2008, 11:33:43 AM »
Hondaman,

How will this work with 3 ohm coils and a Dyna III plus a halogen bulb ? There is no way in hell that I can pull the holy grail of 14.5V with my set up.

You're gonna have to come up here and spend a Saturday or Sunday with me so we can fix that thing...
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2008, 11:34:40 AM »
Woohoo! Put me down for 2 sets please Mark! (will they work with a Martek ignition and Martek coils?) Cheers, Terry. ;D

Yep!
Uh, oh...AUS shipping again....I'll get the parts going for you, Terry!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2008, 11:35:38 AM »
I'm pretty dumb - are you saying that this gizmo will help my K7 750 running stock coils and dyna s?

If it will I'm up for a set too!!!!

Yep, sure will. PM me for a price (around $12).
mgparis@concentric.net
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2008, 11:36:46 AM »
put me down for a set too hondaman!

PM me for a delivery time: around $12 + shipping...
mgparis@concentric.net

I'm going to order parts this week to build up a whole batch of these thingies.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2008, 01:00:08 PM »
Marks has already addressed some of this.  But, I spent all that time typing, so....

TwoTired
I believe that the issue is with limiting the "high inrush currents" to the coil and damage to the breaker points (translation: burning up) and not wasting "23 Watts". As long as the magnetic field around the coil has built to its maximum value before the points open (di/dt) the ignition system will run much more efficiently by limiting the current in the primary winding.

Well, at the risk of interfering with Hondaman's business venture.  There are a few things I'd like to point out.  I've also done some circuit designs and CD ignition is the exact thing needed for bikes that have limited alternator output and require a higher spark voltage.  I've had a CD operating on my 72 ford truck since about 1980 or so.

First Stated goal was to
Quote
preserve some battery juice and make a healthier charging system
Second Stated goal was to use lower ohm primary coils, such as
Quote
Dyna or Accel
or others like the gold wing.

I'd like to point out that you don't need a resistor for each coil.  One in line with power to both will serve the same purpose, to limit current draw and make them closer to the stock 5 ohm loads that the charging system can more easily handle.

"Wasting 23 watts" speaks directly toward the first goal and is quite important to charging systems that only produce 40-50 watts at idle and 150 watts peak.

An inline resistor will reduce inrush and total current drawn by any coil it is deployed with, as well as the energy stored in he coil. The inline resistor will also reduce the voltage production capability of the low ohm coils.  Which brings up the question of just why you have low ohm coils in the first place?

The coils develop voltage potential by means of a turns ratio.  This is the number of turns of wire in it's primary winding relative to the number of wire turns in its secondary or output winding.  The higher the differential, the higher the multiplication.
Low ohm coils have less windings in the primary in order to increase this ratio.  You COULD also add more windings to the secondary to achieve this goal, however wire has resistance and more wire increases resistive losses.  So, the trade off favors reducing the primary winding of the coil.   Also, less wire is also cheaper to manufacture, as it uses less material in increases profits on a per unit basis.

For illustrative purposes, lets say a coil has a 1000 to 1 turns ratio.  Putting 12 v into the primary gets you 12,000V out the secondary  (Not really, there are other losses in a real physical design, but the principle stands.)  Putting in 9V (as in during electric start) gets you only 9000V output.

The gold wing coils are low ohms for starting purposes where the starter motor drags down the system voltage, particularly when the engine, and oil are cold.  High battery loads, lower the output voltage.  The high turns ratio still produces good spark voltage during such times because of its turns ratio, but the high current draw increases coil heating and, yes, the point contacts, too?  So, there is a ballast resistor that reduces the effective primary current draw, as well as the developed voltage potential of the coils during normal run operations.  I don't believe the gold wing needs to conserve power from a weak charging system.  The designers simply wanted it to start quickly and reliably.

If you want to mimic the Gold Wing system, get its ballast resistor (there is only one, wired in series with all the coils) and its ignition switch, from a Gold Wing and adapt it to your bike equipped with Dyna or Accell 3 ohm coils, or the GL coils.

However, it should be noted that such an arrangement is NOT a high energy ignition.  If you got your low ohm coils to get a high spark voltage, inserting a resistor in series with it's primary will also reduce the voltage output capability of said coils.

In my opinion, to get both high energy and low power consumption from the alternator, CD ignition is the way to do it.  What this does is boost the voltage going into the coil from 12v to 300-400 Volts.  This massively increases the voltage output of any coil.  And 5 ohm coils can then produce far more developed spark voltage than any Accell or Dyna coil operating at 12V, simply based on the turns ratio.
With such a system you get faster starts, and you can increase the spark gap for more efficient fuel combustion, and greater spark plug efficiency over an extended life of the spark plugs.  Further, CD systems can use a points trigger with as little  current drawn through them like the Hondaman ignition unit.  So, points longevity is vastly improved.  Wear issues are related to rubbing block, primarily.
The CD system in my truck is still using the same set of points it got when I installed the CD unit (1980-ish).  I've replaced the spark plugs once.  And the fuel economy increased 3 MPG.  Which may not sound like much, but going from 12 MPG to 15 MPG is significant. The CD unit did blow its voltage converter transistor once.  This renders the CD unit inoperative, of course.  But, happily there is a switch to convert it back to conventional at the press of a button.  The truck ran as before, though without the benefits. No reason an SOHC4 unit(s) couldn't be designed to have the same bypass switch.

What I want to know is, what happened to the coil per plug ignition system Hondaman teased us with many posts ago.  What happened to that Mark?  I thought that had enormous potential. (If you'll pardon the pun)   ;D

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2008, 01:14:55 PM »
Hondaman,

How will this work with 3 ohm coils and a Dyna III plus a halogen bulb ? There is no way in hell that I can pull the holy grail of 14.5V with my set up.

You're gonna have to come up here and spend a Saturday or Sunday with me so we can fix that thing...

You're on buddy! Think we can pull the engine and do the 900 kit in one day?  ;) Let me know whats good for you weather permitting. I have a regular gig going every other Th, Fr, Sa in Burlington with the next one being this coming week (not that I'm in a hurry). Sunday is always open if you're available. 
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2008, 01:47:04 PM »
Marks has already addressed some of this.  But, I spent all that time typing, so....

TwoTired
I believe that the issue is with limiting the "high inrush currents" to the coil and damage to the breaker points (translation: burning up) and not wasting "23 Watts". As long as the magnetic field around the coil has built to its maximum value before the points open (di/dt) the ignition system will run much more efficiently by limiting the current in the primary winding.

Well, at the risk of interfering with Hondaman's business venture.  There are a few things I'd like to point out.  I've also done some circuit designs and CD ignition is the exact thing needed for bikes that have limited alternator output and require a higher spark voltage.  I've had a CD operating on my 72 ford truck since about 1980 or so.

First Stated goal was to
Quote
preserve some battery juice and make a healthier charging system
Second Stated goal was to use lower ohm primary coils, such as
Quote
Dyna or Accel
or others like the gold wing.

I'd like to point out that you don't need a resistor for each coil.  One in line with power to both will serve the same purpose, to limit current draw and make them closer to the stock 5 ohm loads that the charging system can more easily handle.

"Wasting 23 watts" speaks directly toward the first goal and is quite important to charging systems that only produce 40-50 watts at idle and 150 watts peak.

An inline resistor will reduce inrush and total current drawn by any coil it is deployed with, as well as the energy stored in he coil. The inline resistor will also reduce the voltage production capability of the low ohm coils.  Which brings up the question of just why you have low ohm coils in the first place?

The coils develop voltage potential by means of a turns ratio.  This is the number of turns of wire in it's primary winding relative to the number of wire turns in its secondary or output winding.  The higher the differential, the higher the multiplication.
Low ohm coils have less windings in the primary in order to increase this ratio.  You COULD also add more windings to the secondary to achieve this goal, however wire has resistance and more wire increases resistive losses.  So, the trade off favors reducing the primary winding of the coil.   Also, less wire is also cheaper to manufacture, as it uses less material in increases profits on a per unit basis.

For illustrative purposes, lets say a coil has a 1000 to 1 turns ratio.  Putting 12 v into the primary gets you 12,000V out the secondary  (Not really, there are other losses in a real physical design, but the principle stands.)  Putting in 9V (as in during electric start) gets you only 9000V output.

The gold wing coils are low ohms for starting purposes where the starter motor drags down the system voltage, particularly when the engine, and oil are cold.  High battery loads, lower the output voltage.  The high turns ratio still produces good spark voltage during such times because of its turns ratio, but the high current draw increases coil heating and, yes, the point contacts, too?  So, there is a ballast resistor that reduces the effective primary current draw, as well as the developed voltage potential of the coils during normal run operations.  I don't believe the gold wing needs to conserve power from a weak charging system.  The designers simply wanted it to start quickly and reliably.

If you want to mimic the Gold Wing system, get its ballast resistor (there is only one, wired in series with all the coils) and its ignition switch, from a Gold Wing and adapt it to your bike equipped with Dyna or Accell 3 ohm coils, or the GL coils.

However, it should be noted that such an arrangement is NOT a high energy ignition.  If you got your low ohm coils to get a high spark voltage, inserting a resistor in series with it's primary will also reduce the voltage output capability of said coils.

In my opinion, to get both high energy and low power consumption from the alternator, CD ignition is the way to do it.  What this does is boost the voltage going into the coil from 12v to 300-400 Volts.  This massively increases the voltage output of any coil.  And 5 ohm coils can then produce far more developed spark voltage than any Accell or Dyna coil operating at 12V, simply based on the turns ratio.
With such a system you get faster starts, and you can increase the spark gap for more efficient fuel combustion, and greater spark plug efficiency over an extended life of the spark plugs.  Further, CD systems can use a points trigger with as little  current drawn through them like the Hondaman ignition unit.  So, points longevity is vastly improved.  Wear issues are related to rubbing block, primarily.
The CD system in my truck is still using the same set of points it got when I installed the CD unit (1980-ish).  I've replaced the spark plugs once.  And the fuel economy increased 3 MPG.  Which may not sound like much, but going from 12 MPG to 15 MPG is significant. The CD unit did blow its voltage converter transistor once.  This renders the CD unit inoperative, of course.  But, happily there is a switch to convert it back to conventional at the press of a button.  The truck ran as before, though without the benefits. No reason an SOHC4 unit(s) couldn't be designed to have the same bypass switch.

What I want to know is, what happened to the coil per plug ignition system Hondaman teased us with many posts ago.  What happened to that Mark?  I thought that had enormous potential. (If you'll pardon the pun)   ;D

Cheers,


Wonderful post, TT!  :) :)  Let's entertain SOHC4 readers with some more theory (I think you're better at this than I am, but here goes...)
Like you, I would like a CDI. But, like you, I've experienced their unreliability, and like you (or maybe it was your vendor), I added a "Back to Points" switch on the CDI when it died on my old Ford.

(BTW, the Hondaman ignitions are available with this switch, and several riders have this on theirs...)

The coil-per-plug system is still coming, limited so far by inexpensive availability of those coils. The dang things cost more that most of our fellow riders have paid for their bikes.  :( They will interface with the Hondaman ignition, when I figure out how to make it fiscally practical. A $400 ignition system hardly befits these scooters...

About the resistors: You're right, of course, that one resistor (or wire) can be used for both coils. I found a little improvement in using 2, here's why:
if the "points opening" or "open trigger" is very short, like on a Gold Wing electronic unit, one resistor (or wire) can indeed be used for multiple coils. The stipulation must be that only 1 coil at a time be fired, and its recharge time must be accomodated before the next one is fired, or at least the next one's discharge must occur before (some minimum value, like 10%) of the magnetic field in that next one begins to drop. The situation with our SOHC designs, due to the points cams' 180 degree timing, is: the coils overlap each others' charge/discharge regions. With the Honda coils, this isn't a big deal, since they charge in 1.5mS, but the Dynas charge (and discharge) much faster ( about .7mS) because of their fewer primary windings. So, if one resistor is used for 2 Dyna coils, the input voltage at the 2nd coil in the firing sequence is decreased right at the moment when the points open. While watching this phomenon on my O-scope, I noticed it caused a droop in the HV right in the range of 3500-4500 RPM on both coils (with one resistor). Above that RPM, the droop stay down, whether the resistor(s) exists or not. Since this is where most of us cruise, I thought it nicer to remove that droop, since the 2nd resistor is only about $3 more. That's why I offer it with two...  :)
And, having 2 reduces the size of the resistor. The wattage is 50% of the "apparent" power, since the current is a 50% duty cycle, like this:
[([13.8 volts/(3 ohm coil + 1 ohm resistor)]2)* 1 ohm] * 50% duty = 5.95 watts, divided as:
(1 ohm / 4 ohms) * 5.95 watts = 1.49 watt mean running heat at the resistor.
But, if the rider turns on the key, but doesn't start the bike, the heat becomes:
[([13.8 volts/(3 ohm coil + 1 ohm resistor)]2)* 1 ohm] = 2.98 watts.

In the confines of that "hump" inside the gas tank, the resistor must stay cooler than 180 degrees, so an aluminum-cased resistor, with a 60 degree/watt dissipation, can be used, since:
180 degrees/ 2.98 watts = 60.4 degrees/watt.
This will keep it from becoming too hot in a "consumer-overtested" situation. By mounting the thingies on an aluminum heatsink, it gives even more margin for the system: my bike's Vetter lowers tend to raise those undertank temps much higher because of the reduced airflow in heavy traffic. I don't want to blow me up!  :o

So, that was how it came to be: I'm (overly?) conservative in my designs.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline KRONUS0100

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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2008, 05:33:17 PM »
I must be an idot.  I don't remmeber reading that in my dyna s manual.  Could that have helped cook my stator?  How much and how do I get a set?  Thanks, Matt.
MATT
current bikes:  1976 CB750F, 1981 GS1100E
bikes owned:1981 GL1100I, 1990 GS500E, 1981 GS850, 1977 and 1979 GS750, 1974 CB750, 1975 CB750, and a 1982 GS750E

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2008, 06:41:06 PM »
Yeah, I wondered about the 15 degree overlap in points drawing double power through the resistor.  Spec is 195 degree dwell.  But, considered the stock Honda Goldwing coils are 2.4-3 ohms (per Clymer) and they worked well with the Goldwing's single ballast resistor of 3 ohms, so maybe the accell and Dyna coils were of equivalent quality.  Guess not, considering your data.

Then again, I'm just doing this from the arm chair and have no parts on hand to measure.  To be sure, a 1 ohm resistor will help diminish power draw when using 3 ohm coils on the 550 and 400, etc. by lowering the power draw from 54.6 watts drawn to 40W, saving about 15 watts to help recharge the battery.  Stock 5 ohm coil draw is about 33W.  But, you are still operating the 3 ohm coil intended to be run with 12-13V at 9-9.75V instead.  Won't this remove the opportunity to increase the spark gap?

Re: heating the gas tank hump.  Why don't you ally with Terry and have him add a feature to his oil cooler for mounting the resistor heat sink?   ;D ;D ;D

Thinking aloud;  What about making an aluminum mount with one side radiused to the curvature of the frame tube, using the frame itself to dissipate heat.  A band strap would hold it in place.

I think I'll stick with stock coils as long as I can. ;D

BTW,  Nothing wrong with being conservative in design, in my book.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2008, 07:30:30 PM »
Yeah, I wondered about the 15 degree overlap in points drawing double power through the resistor.  Spec is 195 degree dwell.  But, considered the stock Honda Goldwing coils are 2.4-3 ohms (per Clymer) and they worked well with the Goldwing's single ballast resistor of 3 ohms, so maybe the accell and Dyna coils were of equivalent quality.  Guess not, considering your data.

Then again, I'm just doing this from the arm chair and have no parts on hand to measure.  To be sure, a 1 ohm resistor will help diminish power draw when using 3 ohm coils on the 550 and 400, etc. by lowering the power draw from 54.6 watts drawn to 40W, saving about 15 watts to help recharge the battery.  Stock 5 ohm coil draw is about 33W.  But, you are still operating the 3 ohm coil intended to be run with 12-13V at 9-9.75V instead.  Won't this remove the opportunity to increase the spark gap?

Re: heating the gas tank hump.  Why don't you ally with Terry and have him add a feature to his oil cooler for mounting the resistor heat sink?   ;D ;D ;D

Thinking aloud;  What about making an aluminum mount with one side radiused to the curvature of the frame tube, using the frame itself to dissipate heat.  A band strap would hold it in place.

I think I'll stick with stock coils as long as I can. ;D

BTW,  Nothing wrong with being conservative in design, in my book.

Cheers,


Do you have more info about the Goldwing coils? I'm being told they are 3 ohm, 2.5 ohm and 1.5 ohm.  ???

When I got my Dyna 3-ohm coils, they came with an instruction sheet that said something like, "These coils may be used directly with the Dyna III amplifier, if the coils' B+ side is connected to the amplifier (?). If using the Dyna S trigger, a 1 ohm resistor should be placed in the B+ circuit to each coil."
I've always remembered the statement, partly because the Dyna III that I owned only had enough wires to hook to the trigger and the coils' (-) side. But, the Dyna III unit itself lasted less than a year and 5,000 miles before it died. So, I suppose this might have a bearing on the poor reliability of these units in their history. If the Dyna III, like the Dyna S, is only rated for 4 amps, then they won't last long with a 3 ohm coil spiking them all the time. That could explain that whole scenario with both of these devices.

The odd thing: I've never seen Dyna supply any resistors or resistance wire. The instructions I had only mentioned that I could buy it at most auto supply stores (circa 1974, maybe you could...).

Honda's coils, like those made for Kaw, Suzy and Yamaha, are all about the same: around 7-9 kV output from approximately 2-3 amps' primary draw. Most were made by Denso or NEC until sometime in the late 1980s, when other brands appeared (as cast onto the coil bodies, anyway). And, they all connected directly to +12 volts on the B+ side. That was considered unusual in the 1960s, as almost all coils (except magnetos) had resistance in series with that terminal before that.

The Dyna/Accel coils were designated for dragracing or streetracing bikes, never for commuting-touring use (circa 1970s). It's only been in the last 10 years or so that they seem to be showing up on daily riders, possibly because the coils get sold on eBay or other used parts route, and they come without the original datasheets. At least, that's my supposition, could be wrong.  ???

In any event, the SOHC bikes were not designed to cope with this particular mod. The wires are too small, at the least, and the alternators too small, outside of the 750, to handle them. But, the stock coils are also marginal in the low-RPM range, which gives us all dirty sparkplug issues unless everything else is just right. Adding HV is a good way to solve that issue.

So, toward the next step:
these "Resistor Packs" are part of the larger picture of adding the "plug-on-coil" kits, when I can round up appropriate parts. Those coils all run at reduced voltages (5-9 volts is typical), so this resistor method will apply when we get there. The resistor value itself will change (a 4-screw retrofit), but in the meantime, the current version should help some of the SOHC-ers have a "brighter" summer this year.  ;D

The only fly in the "plug-on-coil" ointment: I need to get the LED timing lights working well. There is no way to use a conventional timing light on a plug-on-coil setup, so I need to have a timing set method for the users, or there will be hell to pay!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2008, 07:31:44 PM »
I must be an idot.  I don't remmeber reading that in my dyna s manual.  Could that have helped cook my stator?  How much and how do I get a set?  Thanks, Matt.

That instruction sheet came with my 3-ohm coils, not the Dyna trigger parts.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline LMAERO_396

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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2008, 10:59:56 PM »
I definitely want a set, will incorporate it into my rewire of my CB550 project.  :)

*My Rides*
2002 Ford F-250 CC 7.3 Diesel
2008 HD Dyna Street Bob
1974 CB550 Project
1971 CB175 Project

Offline eurban

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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2008, 06:26:16 AM »
Not so sure that the Dyna III is particularly fragile.  For what its worth, mine's (installed on 78 750k) 15 years old with 10 of that running with 3ohm Dyna coils (no resistor).  When I recently added a relayed power source to my coils, I did notice that the stock coil power supply wires showing signs of heating up and their connections to the end terminals were particularly toasty.  Not sure what the amperage draw is for the 3ohm coils but I am sure it close to the capacity of the stock wiring in good shape and when they become compromised for whatever reason it is no doubt asking a bit much of them to power these coils. . . .When I installed the 3ohm coils years ago, I did it on blind faith that it was indeed a performance upgrade.  It seemed at the time to improve cold starting and the bike's ignition has performed well since.  Always having the itch to improve things, I just recently added a relay to power the coils with near battery voltage.  Bike charges well, even at idle.  So I guess my question would be, what would I gain by adding resistors to my coils?  Performance? Longevity?  What might I loose? Performance?

Offline LMAERO_396

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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2008, 07:56:42 AM »
kinda OT but what is the stock size of the CB550 wiring, 18ga?

*My Rides*
2002 Ford F-250 CC 7.3 Diesel
2008 HD Dyna Street Bob
1974 CB550 Project
1971 CB175 Project

Offline mark

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Re: Resistors for 3-ohm coils!
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2008, 08:43:40 AM »
.........
The only fly in the "plug-on-coil" ointment: I need to get the LED timing lights working well. There is no way to use a conventional timing light on a plug-on-coil setup, so I need to have a timing set method for the users, or there will be hell to pay!

Many moons ago, I had the happy task of grinding valves on a ...... hmm.... think it was a Nissan Pulsar. Anyhow... it was a twin-cam engine with coil on plug ignition. As I recall, this engine had a cam position sensor which could be adjusted to set timing.

I did some digging in the toolbox and found my timing light adaptor:

It is the end of a spark plug stuck to a short length of a plug wire, with a bead tie added to keep the coil from falling off.

Hope this helps.


Happy trails.


1976 CB550K, 1973 CB350G, 1964 C100

F you mark...... F you.