Author Topic: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1  (Read 12961 times)

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Offline Vinylwasp

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Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« on: February 24, 2008, 02:52:15 AM »
Guys, can anyone tell me whether the Mac or the Yamiya 4-1 from Japan are any good?

Yamiya: http://www.yamiya750e.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=35_88&products_id=670
This looks the business, but is it any good. At $350 the price looks ok.

Mac: http://www.motorcycleworld.com/enthusiasts/catalog_item_detail.asp?catalog=3196&levelcode=0&product=402482
The Mac looks really cheaply made, and the photo's don't inspire much either.

I'd like something like Carpy's standard pipe, which I've read elsewhere in the forums is like a Yoshimura, which is no longer made, but I also read that Carpy wants a $1000 USD for one.

Are there any other options? I don't really want a megaphone style like the Kerker or the 001-1301 Mac.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

ps: It needs to fit an F1 too.  ;)
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Offline KB02

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2008, 06:05:05 AM »
One can of worms?
 - Check

Can opener?
 - Check

 ;D ;D ;D

The Yamiya is basically the Yosi replica. I, too, would be interested in hearing the experiences of others. As for the MAC, I've never cared for them. They are cheaply made and cheaply sold which is why there are so many of them out there. I used to have one on a bike. I didn't care for it. I don't plan on buying another one if I have other options.

For what it's worth.

Personally, I think the best looking pipes are the Benji's Pea Shooters.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2008, 07:30:46 PM by KB02 »
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Offline 736cc

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2008, 06:16:23 AM »
  If anybody has the personal skills to hand-bend and weld-up a race pipe or knows someone that can in NY area, contact me.


Offline kghost

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2008, 07:26:57 AM »
You can build most anything if you have the patience and time....

I gave up trying to find someone at a reasonable cost and started on my own



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Offline super pasty white guy

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2008, 08:20:29 AM »
Don't know what's happening with this right now, but you might read through this.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=29969.0

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2008, 10:04:53 AM »
too bad the shipping on that yamiya pipe is so high (100 usd) i ran into a guy a few weeks ago with one and it sounds AMAZING, quality seems to be excellent. i'd #$%*can my kerker in a heartbeat to have one.

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2008, 10:14:53 AM »
I'd love to see that Yamiya chromed. I really like my Kerker but have you seen what they cost?! Plus you still have to pay shipping on those too.

KGhost,
Pipe bending/manufacture 101. How about keeping us informed of materials used, methods used, tools used?! 
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Offline mkramer1121

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2008, 11:37:27 AM »
I'd love to see that Yamiya chromed. I really like my Kerker but have you seen what they cost?! Plus you still have to pay shipping on those too.

KGhost,
Pipe bending/manufacture 101. How about keeping us informed of materials used, methods used, tools used?! 

They sell the Yamiya ones chromed for $50 more.

Offline Tower

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2008, 12:19:26 PM »
Impressive bending work kghost! 8)  I thought one of 4-stroke pipe making rules is to ensure all pipes are identical length at the collector?  Is that your understanding also?

Offline gerhed

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2008, 01:53:38 PM »
Bought my MAC about 15 years ago.
Very solid--well made--good chrome still.
Not sure how they are today.


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Offline rbmgf7

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2008, 02:18:54 PM »
  If anybody has the personal skills to hand-bend and weld-up a race pipe or knows someone that can in NY area, contact me.

so how exactly are those hand bent? i figure since it's by hand and not machine, a tube bender wasn't invlovled. was it a die and leverage? seems like a simple technique that any semi-equipped shop could make (and someone with experience).

Offline 736cc

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2008, 03:42:58 PM »
  I have the prototype; just need a builder

Offline coyotecowboy

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2008, 07:30:55 PM »
You can build most anything if you have the patience and time....

I gave up trying to find someone at a reasonable cost and started on my own





KG, I like the way you think!!  I had been on the fence about building scrambler-type exhaust for my 750 and after seeing yours, I think I'll give it a try ;D

Oh yeah, does anyone have the primary tube length to the collector and diameter on an original Yosh 4-1?  That is about the most important thing to bear in mind when designing headers, and if you have proven measurements to go off of then it will be that much easier.  Collector diameter and how the primaries are paired up (for exhaust scavenging) will affect it too.
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Offline Vinylwasp

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2008, 03:18:48 AM »
Thanks everyone, I've been in contact with 736 and the Yoshi replica project is dead, he'd had some crazy quotes to develop a replica jig.

The Yamiya looks like it's on the money but the reports I've read here are conflicting. Fuzzybutt says they rock, but someone said in the other Yoshi thread said they'd 'heard' that they weren't very good quality. The photo's on the site look good, but I'd be interested to know whether the baffle is perf sheet or gang punched tubing and what other material they use?

The Yamiya is $350 Black and $400 Chrome plus shipping, and the Kerker is $500 from Dynoman, and as I've got to ship either from Japan or the US to Australia, the yamiya will cost less in the end. There's a local company called Tranzac that make a very good megaphone style pipe is anyone's interested from Aus, but it's the Yoshi look I want with a single seat on my F1, so the Yamiya wins if the quality is ok

Building one myself is out of the question for me at present, but if you have the skills, it's nice to craft your own. Great work kghost, the scrambler style will certainly look unique. Are you using a sand technique or something else?

The only other commercial pipe I found for sale was the Motad from the UK, but it's also a megaphone. Less the VAT, the price probably isn't too bad compared with a Kerker for those who like a megaphone.

Does anyone know if you can really make DOHC pipes fit, someone said you could make the Vance and Hines fit?

cheers everyone, thanks for the help and advice.  :)

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2008, 03:33:10 AM »
well you`ve obviously done a hell of a lot more work on this than me knoll, i havent done the searches for exhausts yet, but then i`m looking at making my own.
i`d be interested in the details of diameter and length of the primary tubes of the yoshi pipes.
you can buy bends and straight pieces of different diameter exhaust pipe from suppliers easy enough.
as for the welding i would say tig is the way to go as its not as brittle as a mig weld, sand bending is an option but not easy and rather time consuming but it is the ultimate in pipes
cheers
troppo

Offline coyotecowboy

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2008, 03:55:34 AM »
From what I can see on KG's rig, he's using off the shelf header bends.  Looks like 2 90 degree bends on the #3 pipe and a 180 degree on #4 then some creative die grinder or torch work to join them up. I can't quite what size of a collector he's going into though ???
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Offline kghost

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2008, 05:52:11 AM »
Two 90 degree pieces mad into 9 to be exact.

Tig....not very good tig but tig
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Offline Tower

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2008, 08:49:56 AM »
As attractive as it sounds to do your own, there's a lot more to it than it appears.  Even disregarding the engineering and mechanical skills and facilities needed, its not without start-up costs.   A DIY bending rig is perhaps $50 -$100 in parts to make plus the mandrel jigs for another $150 - $200 per pipe size.  Add cost of pipe, welding and chroming and that first set of custom-bent chromed pipes (after you've discarded one or more prototypes) will come off your assembly line for a mere $600 - $700.  Mind you, perhaps the second set might only cost $200 - $300.

There are other ways besides bending that can be used.  One other way is water pressure shaping.  Requires good welding technique and sheet metal.  But pipes made that way are not nearly as attractive...as they have seems.

Besides, if it were that easy, everybody would be doing it and pipes would cost under $200.  ;D

Offline rbmgf7

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2008, 12:50:16 PM »
i've offen wondered about making my own exhaust here at home. this is what i came up with.

you can purchase prebent 1-3/8" tubing off of summit racing for $15 (comes as a J pipe). or, if you know a muffler shop, they can bend it for ya so all you need is the steel and pay for the bending costs (just crank out a bunch of bends at the needed radius'). mitre the amount of bend you need from the prebent steel and joint weld everything. notching with a lathe/mill/drill press is nice but if you don't have the equipment but do have patience, a grinder can work. i figure set up a jig made from lumber. i built a small dune-buggy chassis, rollcage, and all to SAE baja regulations, just using 2x4 ripped in half, drilled the tubing OD, and clampped the wood together on the tube. cheap method and the chassis came out dang near square. the only tricky parts i see are the exhaust flanges and colletor(s) (if making a 4-2 or 4-1). figure flanges would be really nice water-jetted or handy bandsaw skills suffice.

if you have a spare engine in a chassis, flip it upside down and work from the head to the end. most of this could be done at home. just need a welder and a few general tools.

Offline KB02

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2008, 01:35:33 PM »
Ahhhhhhh.... to have a welder... actually... that might be a bit dangerous for me.   :P ;D
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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2008, 10:52:51 PM »
i have my own mig and tig, have access to a bender and cheap pipe  supply at work and have been in the metal game pretty much all my working life, so it  wont be too hard for me, i wasnt looking at chroming so  i`ll save there (although i have seen plans for home done electro plating and even anodising) i was initially thinking of making them in stainless but for cost sake i figured on using normal steel for the initial job...
so i may have to do a little searching on the net to find some numbers and pictures on those yoshi pipes

Offline Tower

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2008, 03:52:41 PM »
@troppo, to get you started, here's my learned summary of header design theory for the 4-stroke 4 cylinder CB750:

1) Length and width of header, collector, and megaphone sections
From experience, optimal pipe width has been shown to be around 75% - 95% of exhaust port diameter.  At this ratio forces gases to escape with added speed and allows the sound pressure waves to have some influence as well.  Wider than this and exhaust gas speed and hence heat, is a problem.  Narrower than this and back pressure and loss of power is a problem. 

Collector pipe volume = sum of volumes of inlet pipes.  Hence, with 4 pipes, Collector diameter = 2 x header pipe diameter.

Megaphone section length adds to overall resonant length, and when combined with header section length, will determine the system's resonance characteristics. 

2) Temperature
Break mean exhaust pressure (BMEP) is a good tool to calculate average exhaust temperature (EGTav).  BMEP = K x power (Hp) / displacement (cc) x rpm, k= 447420.  BMEP x 60 = approx EGTav.   At 6000 rpm, the CB750 may have a BMEP of 6.8, which means an EGTav of 410oC.  At 410oC sound travels at about 58,000 cm/sec.  (Pipes will blue at about 600oC)

3) RPM
Pipes will resonate at precise sound frequencies.  RPM determines the sound frequency at which each cylinder is running.  Resonance is key to pipe design, and that means we must establish at what frequency a motor operates, or more precisely at what frequency we want our pipes to resonate.  I’ve chosen 6000 rpm as the target design point.

Since a burst of sound comes every 4 strokes or 2 revolutions, each cylinder's sound frequency at 6000 RPM is therefore 50 Hz. Because there are 4 cylinders, operating at 2 opposing strokes, the combined sound frequency of the exhaust system at 6000 rpm is 50 x 2 = 100 Hz.

Also note that 6000 rpm = 0.01 seconds per revolution (inverse of rpm) or about 0.005 seconds/stroke.

Putting this together, you get; that in the interval between the power stroke and the beginning of the exhaust stroke, at 6000 rpm, sound would have traveled down an exhaust pipe, a distance of about 72.5 cm (28.5") Call this the Header Tuned Length (TL).  Actual exhaust port timing is more precise than merely assuming ½ stroke (90o), but for this illustrative example its close enough.

Pipes will resonate (that sweet sound) if their length is a multiple of their resonant frequency.  From above, TL= 72.5cm and that means 2/1 or 1/1 or 1/2 or 1/3 or 1/4 etc of 72.5cm (1/1 = 28.5”, ½ =14.2”) are harmonic.  All other lengths will dampen the sound.

4) Sound pressure and pipe length
  Sound waves have pressure - they can move the air (exhaust gas in our case).  Also, sound waves can interfere with each other and can be inverted by bouncing them off of objects.   This can be accomplished by using bends, divergent cones (megaphones), pipe length and in the case of multiple pipe exhaust systems, by timing the arrival of sound from one cylinder with the port timing of another cylinder.  At 6000 rpm, a pipe of TL/2  cm would present a wave front to the opposing cylinder at precisely this moment.  Hence placing the first bend at 36cm in a header pipe length of 72 cm would achieve maximum extraction at 6000 rpm.  Thanks to harmonics, any multiple of TL will also work, just to a lesser extent. Conversely a pipe length that is not a multiple of this length, will have adverse effects.  If actual exhaust port timing were to be used, then a slight adjustment to this length would be necessary.

5) Speed of exhaust gases and pipe length
  Gases will speed up through a smaller diameter pipe and slow down in a larger diameter pipe.  Correspondingly, pressure will rise in a smaller diameter pipe and drop in a larger pipe.  Ideally, as the sound front hits the gases it speeds them up precisely when needed, and a reverse sound front slows them down precisely when needed. 

The speed of sound is generally much faster than the speed of escaping exhaust gases.  Stroke of a CB750 is 63mm.  Since all the gases must escape within the span of time the piston moves this distance, we can determine the speed of the escaping gases.  The volume of gases = 63 x 61 stroke x bore = 184.1cc (under pressure).  Under the same pressure, that volume would take up 23 ¼ cm of a 1 ¼” I.D. exhaust pipe.  At 6000 rpm, this volume of gases have about 0.005 seconds per stroke to escape, hence the speed is 23 ¼ / .005 cm/sec = 4,650 cm/sec.  This would only be true if there was no pressure differential in the exhaust pipe.  However, since gases are highly compressible, the actual speed is a fraction of this rate calculated as a ratio of pressure (about 50% actually), in any event, a far cry from the 58,000 cm/sec that sound travels at.  Seen another way, the exhaust gases could have travelled an average of about 5”- 9" down the header pipe when the sound from the next cylinder hits them and forces them to pause.

Summary
CB750 pipes tuned to 6000 rpm
Single pipe dimensions 1 3/8" O.D. - 1 1/4" I.D up to 1 ½” O.D. – 1 3/8” I.D.
Actual Header Length = resonance frequency multiple of TL = 36 cm in our example
Collector diameter = 2 1/2” to 2 3/4”
Megaphone length = resonance frequency multiple of TL = 72 cm (for example)
Total exhaust system length = 108 cm (43”)

So there you have it, 4-stroke exhaust pipe design in a nutshell. ;D

« Last Edit: February 26, 2008, 04:08:47 PM by Tower »

Offline kghost

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2008, 05:17:08 PM »
Very informative and well written.

Thank you.

Question:

Would not the reference to exhaust port diameter reflect the required Inside Diameter of the header pipe?

for reference:

The collector outlet on a stock 750 is 1.35" inner diameter or about 1 11/32.

The stock pipe is 1.15" inner diameter.or about 1 5/32.

It would see that while the collector is about median average in your calculations using a pipe mounted like the stock would put the actual below the calculated range.

I'm using an inner diameter on mine of about 1.5" or 1  1/2. This seems to be the best I can do with the stock exhaust spigot.

Course its a 2-1 system.

Would you believe the header in the picture came out at 37 cm?





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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2008, 05:24:18 PM »
I know its not a 4-1, but the Campbell X-Pipe looks the biz if you dont mind a little fit and finish work.
http://www.x-pipe.com/motorcycle.html

Offline rbmgf7

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2008, 05:47:54 PM »
i'm currently enrolled in a 300 lvl. mechanical engineering course, "internal combustion engines".  we're still getting our feet wet but i was able to understand the first half of tower's post. i have an even easier approach to tuning the exhaust; something i learned when i was in music. just make the exhaust slide like a trombone. now you can tune the exhaust until you get the desired tone you want!  :D that's the realistic engeineering approach. it's not about numbers, it's about how cool you can make your bike sound, lol.