Author Topic: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1  (Read 13022 times)

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Offline coyotecowboy

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2008, 06:14:45 PM »
I know its not a 4-1, but the Campbell X-Pipe looks the biz if you dont mind a little fit and finish work.
http://www.x-pipe.com/motorcycle.html

I had been thinking something along that route too.  A friend gave me a header from an unknown modern sport bike and it has an X-pipe setup in it.  I was going to try and use my stock headpipes and go into the X-pipe and back into 2.  I was having real trouble getting committed to it because I would have to have the bike upside down to fit it right and loose the center stand to make everything fit halfway professional looking. :(
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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2008, 06:55:18 PM »
ditch the center stand and buy a motorcycle lift  ;D

Offline 754

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2008, 09:33:51 PM »
You guys might have liked the old HOOKER drag header for CB750..

3 slip fit sections for every pipe so you could change the lengths of the primary tubes..
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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2008, 11:17:51 PM »
My god, that was one hell of an explaination tower...
Thanks mate, that was exactly what i was looking for. Now all i need to do is get the first bike on the road and sweet talk the war office into letting me cafe the second one lol.
this has been a great thread with some interesting thoughts and informative links
cheers
troppo

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2008, 02:24:06 AM »
G'Day Trop, have you ever seen a Megacycle exhaust? No relation of the cam manufacturer in the US, Megacycle pipes in Cheltenham, Victoria, are probably the best pipes you can buy. I got one made for my Suzuki GS1000S (it had a Tranzac on it when I bought it in 1999, but it was buggared) and it's magnificent!

Ken, the boss, is a drag racer, so he makes pipes that not only look great, but work better. As an aside, I nearly cried when I looked in his dumpmaster and it was full of almost new GSXR, ZXR, CBRR and R1 OEM pipes though, I wanted to take them all home and carefully store them for another 20 years, and stick them on EBay one at a time, to fund my "retirement projects", ha ha!

Here's a link, don't be put off by all the modern pipes, he'll make pretty much whatever you want. Cheers, Terry.  ;D

http://www.megacycle.com.au/Default.htm
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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #30 on: February 27, 2008, 02:39:39 AM »
mmmmmmmmmm theres some very drool worthy exhausts there...
out of curiosity what did your exhaust cost?
the whole point of me wanting to do my own was that funds arent hugely available and i enjoy working with metal (and due to the job i know a little bit) so was trying for a double win, cheap exhaust and maybe a slight power gain.
pipe dreams i know but always worth a shot, but with some of the information posted in this thread, when i get round to it i may even have half a chance.
just one question for all you sohc4 boffins, what is better. 4 into one, 4 into 2 into one, 4 into 2 or 4 into 4? i`ve seen all the different setups on bikes and if i do this i want to have every bit of info i can get at hand before i start.
cheers mate
troppo
« Last Edit: February 27, 2008, 02:45:22 AM by troppo »

Offline KB02

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #31 on: February 27, 2008, 05:10:04 AM »
Okay. For the most part I followed, but I do have one question:

4) Sound pressure and pipe length
  Sound waves have pressure - they can move the air (exhaust gas in our case).  Also, sound waves can interfere with each other and can be inverted by bouncing them off of objects.   This can be accomplished by using bends, divergent cones (megaphones), pipe length and in the case of multiple pipe exhaust systems, by timing the arrival of sound from one cylinder with the port timing of another cylinder.  At 6000 rpm, a pipe of TL/2  cm would present a wave front to the opposing cylinder at precisely this moment.  Hence placing the first bend at 36cm in a header pipe length of 72 cm would achieve maximum extraction at 6000 rpm.  Thanks to harmonics, any multiple of TL will also work, just to a lesser extent. Conversely a pipe length that is not a multiple of this length, will have adverse effects.  If actual exhaust port timing were to be used, then a slight adjustment to this length would be necessary.

Should that have been 72cm? Not 2?
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Offline 736cc

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #32 on: February 27, 2008, 05:55:18 AM »
   The hand-bent Yosh pipe uses the oem exhaust flanges welded onto same diameter 1 1/4" pipe, the collector and tailpipe is 2 3/4" diameter. Whenever you install or remove the pipe, you need to spread the headers to get flanges around frame down tubes, which scratches the frame every time. If you run an oil cooler, the stock filter housing fouls the pipe unless you rotate a few degrees or machine-off the fins. Pipe needs to be dropped to change filter. Can't use centerstand. Finding a baffle that fits was very difficult to source. Running w/o a baffle this thing sounds like the meanest mf ever, and very offensive to everybody that ain't a gearhead. Even w/ the baffle its marginal. Definately has a powerband spike at hi-rpm, and changes its sound pitch like a light switch over 6500 rpm as it literally "comes on the pipe".
    Its almost too much fun, you ride the bike and throttle like a musical instrument on EVERY ride, in EVERY gear. Even at hiway speeds over 75, it starts shreiking and you just want to ride it like a wave.
   It was so conspicuous sounding and looking in orange whenever I rode past the man, I thought it'd be a good idea to re-paint bike stealth-black.


   
« Last Edit: February 27, 2008, 05:58:54 AM by 736cc »

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #33 on: February 27, 2008, 08:31:23 AM »
I always wanted the stainless steel yosh pipe.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2008, 08:34:37 AM by Eightthirtysixcc »

Offline Tower

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #34 on: February 27, 2008, 12:20:02 PM »
@KB02, the TL/2 is based on the time it takes sound to travel as well as the timing difference between cylinders.  Remember Cylinder 1 is offset by two strokes from cylinder 2.

For example
Power - Exhaust - Intake - Compression
When Cylinder 1 starts the Power stroke, the bang sends shock waves down the pipe.  At the end of its stroke the sound has travelled distance TL.  If the bend is half way down the pipe, then a reverse sound wave will travel back up the pipe towards the piston, arriving just as Cylinder 1 is starting its Exhaust stroke.  The arrival will try to "stuff" exhaust back into the chamber, thereby increasing compression until the power stroke is complete.  A sound node will follow the sound front, hopefully arriving just as the exhaust valve is fully open, that reduces sound pressure and effectively "extracts" gases faster than would otherwise take place.  In this way, the pipe prolongs the power stroke and speeds up the exhaust gases.  The duration and amount of "stuffing" and timing of sound node arrival, depend on how sharply the pipe bends and at what distance it is away from the port.

Continuing, the bang from cylinder 1 also travels up the pipe of Cylinder 2 and will arrive just as Cylinder 2 enters its Power stroke.  If the exhaust port of Cylinder 2 is shut by then, there is no stuffing or scavenging effect, however, if there is port timing overlap, then this wave front will (hopefully) push gases back into the chamber that would otherwise have been sent unburned into the exhaust pipe. Essentially, overstuffing the chamber just prior to the power stroke. If timed just right, the effect of course is a bigger bang.  And therein is the art of tuning.

Also consider the bends have produced "echoes" that reverberate within the pipes.  The echo effects also produce sound fronts and nodes of their own and interfere either constructively or destructively with other sound energy.  These secondary (and even tertiary) echos may still have enough energy to add to or subtract from the primary effects.  Again, only final tuning can really optimize these complex interactions.

Finally, because we have 4 pipes to consider, (not just the 2 in my example), that allows the pipe design to vary the lengths of complementary pipes in order to maximize the arrival of sound waves across more than one tuned length.  This gives the system a broader optimal range.  Pipes tuned in this manner don't have just one sweet spot but indeed can target peak horsepower and peak torque or can target for example, 6000 rpm and 9000 rpm (the actual targets have to be carefully examined so that the TL of one pipe doesn't take away from the resonance of another in the target power range)

Pipes, especially stainless pipes, make me hot!

But, now you're getting into the advanced course.  ;D
« Last Edit: February 27, 2008, 12:28:48 PM by Tower »

Offline KB02

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2008, 05:34:14 AM »
Right, but how did you get a TL (Tuned Length) of 2cm? That's a very short pipe.
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Offline Tower

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2008, 07:27:28 AM »
@KB02, I should have more clearly indicated TL=72.5cm.  Sorry if you got the impression it was 2cm.  Perhaps you misunderstood the formula TL/2 ? i.e 1/2 x TL = 36cm - the position of the first bend.

Offline KB02

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2008, 11:56:53 AM »
OKAY... now I get it.  :) Thanks!   ;D
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Offline Tower

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2008, 12:36:08 PM »
@kghost, sorry I missed your question.  So, in response to your port vs pipe diameter question...

If the exhaust port ID of your stock CB750 is 1.35", then the optimal exhaust pipe ID is between 1.02" - 1.28". 

In other words, the widest pipe you want is 1 5/16". Any wider, and the exhaust gases will heat up the engine and pipe too much (among other bad things).    Conversely, the smallest diameter pipe you want is 1 1/16". Any narrower than that and resulting back pressure will reduce power.

However, if your motor is not stock: has more compression, or larger pistons, or longer stroke, etc, etc., then doing a porting job to widen the port and allow bigger pipes is a good idea.  e.g. an 836 motor would be ok with 1 3/8" pipes.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2008, 12:46:25 PM by Tower »

Offline KB02

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2008, 02:17:36 PM »
And one last question: In calculating the tuned length (TL), do you include the silencer, or not?
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Offline Tower

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2008, 03:08:15 PM »
@KB02, For most purposes, in a multi-cylinder 4-stroke application, the tuned length is calculated as the distance sound travels in the time interval between ignition and opening of the exhaust port.  This distance, is important for timing sound fronts across cylinders, it essentially refers to header length only (since header pipes are typically connected only at the collector). 

If crossover pipes are used, then the calculation must match pipe length up to the crossover plus 1/2 the length of the crossover pipe.  Distance is measured at the centre of the pipe.

A second calculation, the distance sound travels while the exhaust port is open, produces TL1.  Actual Header Length for a target rpm band, is somewhere between TL and TL1 (but that's another level of complexity).  Suffice it to say that if your system is designed based on TL, then the actual power band will be slightly higher than design target band, but not by much (i.e. something like 6500 rpm instead of 6000 rpm)

A silencer enters the picture for purposes of calculating resonance harmonics, not for port timing, but instead for creating a charming sound. So, although TL refers to header tuned length, the Exhaust System Length should be a multiple of TL for that sweet sound, hence the silencer should also be a multiple of TL.

Hope this helps.

Offline 754

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2008, 07:31:31 PM »
By all indications my unequal length turbo header should make my bike slower.. but I picked up a few tenths, cuz I could lower it 3 inches..

I am starting to believe though that smaller primaries make torque... and I like that.. a Lot!!!
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Offline Vinylwasp

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #42 on: February 29, 2008, 01:13:16 AM »
Ok, I took a punt and ordered the Yamiya.
I'm working on the premise that it'll sound like one of Carpy's bikes, and that the F1 engine isn't any different to the K externally, so the pipe should hang under the bike just as well. I'll post some photo's once it arrives.  I'm a little worried about the aluminium pipe hanger/rear brake reservoir mounting block, but I might re-engineer that somewhere down the track and cut the rear footpeg mounts off the frame. Maybe ;)

For those of you in Aus, it ended up costing $520 AUD shipped to Sydney. Can't wait for it to arrive and replace the pig-ugly standard F pipe.  ;D
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #43 on: February 29, 2008, 01:42:47 AM »
mmmmmmmmmm theres some very drool worthy exhausts there...
out of curiosity what did your exhaust cost?
the whole point of me wanting to do my own was that funds arent hugely available and i enjoy working with metal (and due to the job i know a little bit) so was trying for a double win, cheap exhaust and maybe a slight power gain.
pipe dreams i know but always worth a shot, but with some of the information posted in this thread, when i get round to it i may even have half a chance.
just one question for all you sohc4 boffins, what is better. 4 into one, 4 into 2 into one, 4 into 2 or 4 into 4? i`ve seen all the different setups on bikes and if i do this i want to have every bit of info i can get at hand before i start.
cheers mate
troppo

G'Day Trop, I think I paid about 600 bucks for that one, but that was a few years ago. Not cheap I know, but they hand make them to fit your bike, and the difference between the Megacycle's performance and that of the Tranzac was like night and day!

I'll get them to make one up for my next CB750 , they look a lot nicer than the Yamiya pipe, in my opinion. I do like this NOS Japanese after-market pipe I picked up for my K1 at the Bendigo swap meet last year though, it's reasonably quite, but works really well with my "tuned" 836 engine! Cheers, Terry. ;D

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Offline CrisPDuk

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #44 on: February 29, 2008, 03:16:26 AM »
I went with Benji's pipes because they fit with the overall look I'm after with my work in progress 550, that they help it rev better, and sound awesome is a bonus 8)



736cc - Benji told me that he gets his header pipes mandrel bent, could it be worth contacting him to see if his supplier can replicate the Yosh ones?

Terry - Have you got any better shots of that tank on your K1, the paint looks seriously 8)
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #45 on: February 29, 2008, 03:32:29 AM »
Thanks Crispy, I think it's pretty cool too. I bought the tank from a guy here (Chris in Boston) a few years ago, it was painted by a guy called Wojohowitz in 1974 (It's signed) and he did a brilliant job, there are more colors in it than first meets the eye, but it's hard to take a pic as it tends to "flare" in bright sunlight. All I did was clear coat it with 2K clear, to add some protection and give it some shine. I'll try to get a clear pic tomorrow. Cheers, Terry. ;D
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Offline 736cc

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #46 on: March 01, 2008, 03:33:40 PM »
  I'm making ONE MORE attempt to clone THE PIPE, this time using cutting-edge technology. A coordinate measuring machine (CMM or falo arm) could be used to measure it in 3D. This would allow designing the pipes with a CAD solid package such as Unigraphics NX3. The model is than transferred via an IGES file to a out sourced CNC pipe bender.
  It'd be nice if I had an inside contact in any of these steps.
  Man, this things got the sexiest curves.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2008, 03:35:52 PM by 736cc »

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #47 on: March 01, 2008, 03:41:19 PM »
Are you doing it as another "business venture" Andy? While I'm not a fan of the looks of that pipe, it seemss like Yamiya are already doing it for a reasonable price? You might be better off trying to do a deal to buy a few of theirs and sell them in the US? Cheers, Terry. ;D
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Offline kayaker43

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #48 on: March 01, 2008, 07:43:18 PM »
My 550 Yosh racing header has real short primaries. Its a bad match for a stock cam, expect to lose low end with it. The 750 yosh header pictures look shorter too but not as radical. The 550 header also isn't quite as curvy looking.

Someone should start a sticky to collect dimensions from popular headers for us homebuilders.

I ran the Yosh TT100 "Daytona" cam in my 550 with a few headers and it seemed great but it REALLY woke up when I fitted the Yosh racing header. Apparently they know their business.

Offline Tower

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Re: Pipe dream, an agressive looking performance 4-1
« Reply #49 on: March 01, 2008, 10:01:04 PM »
@736cc, the collector on that sexy pipe looks a bit off.  It should be a cone from around 3 3/8" inside diameter (specifically, collector i.d. = 2.414 x o.d. of header pipe) and fitted/molded around the header pipes, down to about 2 3/4" (specifically, i.d. = 2 x o.d. of header pipe) at the silencer end.  The collector on the pipe you're showing looks like is was made from straight pipe rather than cone.  Straight pipe will work fine as long as its wide enough (i.e. 3 3/8")

The length of the collector cone is not important (5" - 6" is a workable length)

Also, optionally, a dispersion cone inside the collector welded in between the 4 pipes speeds gases through the collector.