Author Topic: Anybody Had Any Hands on Experience with a “Brazilian”  (Read 2063 times)

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Offline dave400

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Anybody Had Any Hands on Experience with a “Brazilian”
« on: February 26, 2008, 10:21:10 AM »
Brazilian made Honda bikes, ;D I’ve read the finish and quality is not the same as the jap made bikes but I’m not sure about the reliability aspect and any input would be helpful…

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Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: Anybody Had Any Hands on Experience with a “Brazilian”
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2008, 11:48:06 AM »
Honda is still made in Brasil, but just a few models mainly for the local market. I was in Curitiba a couple of years ago and only small commuters and the CB600 Hornet was available -well, the 750 shadow too and a couple more, got some brochures as a souvenir-. The reason was the outrageous import duties. An imported CBR600RR that retails at 12.000 euro retails in Brasil at maybe 24.000 euro or so. Furthermore, the standard of living there is either too high or to low, meaning that only the very wealthy can afford an imported bike.

Commuter bikes are built on a budget. Can you believe they have still drum brakes? Even basic cars only have electric windows as an option, but many of then run in alcohol.

Quality? I remember that argument about american vs mexican Fender guitars. Does it take a genius to sand a wood body? If you dwelve into the reasoning, americans with a higher standard of living will find boring and unpleasant those jobs and may tend to make them loosely. The same goes with bike building. Does it take a genius to assemble a bike given the instructions? As long as the quality control makes its duty, nobody should be able to tell an american from a brazilian or japanese bike. That being said, things like reflectors, wheels etc are farmed out in the country of the factory, so it is important that such parts stick to the overall quality.


For instance, I have a modern Suzuki GZ250 bought in 2000, built in Japan. Later, the spanish Suzuki factory started to produce GZ250's. I have bought some spares through eBay, and it's funny to get a front fender via USPS and see the sticker reading "Fabricado en España"....

Offline 333

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Re: Anybody Had Any Hands on Experience with a “Brazilian”
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2008, 02:33:14 PM »
Looking at the title of this thread, I was afraid it could be ripe for deletion, given what it could have been about!

I was going to admit bragg about a couple of them.  But I'm not talking about bikes.
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Offline SteveD CB500F

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Re: Anybody Had Any Hands on Experience with a “Brazilian”
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2008, 02:43:42 PM »
I had a CG125 BR-J (1992 made in Brazil)

The engine was all that you could expect of a Honda pushrod 125. It started every time, it used very little fuel and didn't seem to mind being ridden flat out everywhere. My son reckoned it would do 70 (yeah, yeah...)

The paint and chrome were crap. It was rusty as hell and bits dropped off it.
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Anybody Had Any Hands on Experience with a “Brazilian”
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2008, 03:28:03 PM »
Honda is still made in Brazil, but just a few models mainly for the local market. I was in Curitiba a couple of years ago and only small commuters and the CB600 Hornet was available -well, the 750 shadow too and a couple more, got some brochures as a souvenir-. The reason was the outrageous import duties. An imported CBR600RR that retails at 12.000 euro retails in Brazil at maybe 24.000 euro or so. Furthermore, the standard of living there is either too high or to low, meaning that only the very wealthy can afford an imported bike.

Commuter bikes are built on a budget. Can you believe they have still drum brakes? Even basic cars only have electric windows as an option, but many of then run in alcohol.

Quality? I remember that argument about American vs Mexican Fender guitars. Does it take a genius to sand a wood body? If you delve into the reasoning, Americans with a higher standard of living will find boring and unpleasant those jobs and may tend to make them loosely. The same goes with bike building. Does it take a genius to assemble a bike given the instructions? As long as the quality control makes its duty, nobody should be able to tell an American from a Brazilian or Japanese bike. That being said, things like reflectors, wheels etc are farmed out in the country of the factory, so it is important that such parts stick to the overall quality.


For instance, I have a modern Suzuki GZ250 bought in 2000, built in Japan. Later, the Spanish Suzuki factory started to produce GZ250's. I have bought some spares through eBay, and it's funny to get a front fender via USPS and see the sticker reading "Fabricado en España"....
I went out to buy a modestly priced Guitar. I examined the American Fender which was pricey but well made and finished. the Mexican and Japan Fender. I remember when you just bought a Fender! The Mexican Fender was very poorly finished and the tuning machinery looked really cheap and flimsy. The Japanese was slightly better finished. I finally bought a Yamaha Pacifica which had very good fit and finish and good tone.
I would not discount the American worker. One of our competitors tried to make Railcar bodies in Brazil. The body panels were very badly fitted and welded. On further inspection some critical bracing was omitted. They had to default in the contract. Our Bodies are made in Nebraska and come in with very few flaws and are on par with the bodies built in Japan.
I would be wary of bikes built for a local market as their budgets, needs, and level of a acceptance may differ from yours and mine. Granted, commodity parts may be common across a product line and across all geographies. The manufacturing process and quality control may differ widely.
Having said that we found the 150 HP electric traction motors coming out of Germany with 2" shaft bolts untorqued, so country of origin does not always guarantee quality.
Most products here say Hencho en (the Country of origin). I do own a LLama pistol and it is nicely made.
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Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: Anybody Had Any Hands on Experience with a “Brazilian”
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2008, 12:34:31 AM »
Bobby, I won't deny what you say but there are hidden reasons about quality. So you say that the mexican guitar was poorly finished. Does it mean mexicans doesn't know how to paint or clearcoat? I dare to make the assumption that mexicans, having less education than americans, are more used to manual labour. Does it mean that the mexican guitar was poorly finished because not enough time was allowed to the worker? Not likely, because being the hourly wage much lower in Mexico than in the US, it would make sense to cut corners in the alloted time of the american factory, not the mexican factory. The only reason for the mexican guitar to cost less and have lower quality is to justify the outrageous price of the american guitar. With different pricing policies you reach the people who is willing to pay 3K for a guitar and the people who is only willing to pay 1K. Now seriously, what's in a guitar to make it worth 3K? Wood is cheap, paint is cheap, lacquer is cheap, CNC machines a guitar in a couple of minutes.


Rusted chrome? Anything will rust in a humid environment. But it is true that when a bike builder farms out the wheels and buy to the cheapest supplier, the supplier will try to save as much as possible, keeping above the standard or even below as long as the bike manufacturer never notices.


The only place where you can get decent routine-manual labour like bike assembly or clothes manufacturing is in developing countries. People in developed countries will get bored after a month and search for a different job. We are so used to farm out unpleasant labours like housecleaning, lawn mowing and the like that it is unthinkable we would stick to a boring, intensive job. At least that's what i think.

Offline 333

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Re: Anybody Had Any Hands on Experience with a “Brazilian”
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2008, 09:02:26 AM »
Now seriously, what's in a guitar to make it worth 3K? Wood is cheap, paint is cheap, lacquer is cheap, CNC machines a guitar in a couple of minutes.

Geez, where do I start?  Maybe by saying that while I am not a luthier, I have studied the subject.  I am in total awe of these people.
So, yes.  A CNC machine can cut a guitar in a matter of seconds.  But a CNC router isn't used to make $3K guitars.  You are paying for "hand crafted" at that price.  And even with the lower priced guitars, cutting the wood out is only a small part of it.  Assembly is key.  And while you're right in that wood is cheap, the right wood is not so cheap.  Then there's the finish, and this goes for a finish on anything(guitars, cars, BIKES!).  It's a little more work than just spraying on lacquer.  Sand, spray, repeat.  Over and over.  The better the finish= more coats.  In the case of guitars, the finish effects the sound as well as the looks.

I believe your assumption about why the Mexican guitar is cheaper is wrong.  While I've not met any of the people involved, Mexican or American, I have seen documentaries  on the American builders.  They have an unbelievable passion for what they do.  That level of passion put into anything produces a great product.  I can only speculate that the Mexicans are more like factory workers
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Offline dave400

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Re: Anybody Had Any Hands on Experience with a “Brazilian”
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2008, 09:17:32 AM »
I had a CG125 BR-J (1992 made in Brazil)

The engine was all that you could expect of a Honda pushrod 125. It started every time, it used very little fuel and didn't seem to mind being ridden flat out everywhere. My son reckoned it would do 70 (yeah, yeah...)

The paint and chrome were crap. It was rusty as hell and bits dropped off it.

Thanks Steve, that’s what I’m thinking about them. I don’t care about the cosmetics as long as the engine is built well because I need a reliable hack for work and I’ve been offered a Brazilian 450 twin……..I’m sure if I tried to play a guitar made in any country of the world, it would just sound bad fella's!  ;) ;D

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Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: Anybody Had Any Hands on Experience with a “Brazilian”
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2008, 10:02:39 AM »

I believe your assumption about why the Mexican guitar is cheaper is wrong.  While I've not met any of the people involved, Mexican or American, I have seen documentaries  on the American builders.  They have an unbelievable passion for what they do.  That level of passion put into anything produces a great product.  I can only speculate that the Mexicans are more like factory workers

I feel we are hijacking the subject, but let's dwelve a little bit more anyway. I'm not talking "luthiers", I'm talking "mass production". Fender, Gibson, are mass produced. Obviously, good wood and nice-looking grain have a scarcity factor that makes it expensive, but to the point of costing 3 grand? Then, how much would the furniture cost? Painting a guitar is expensive? Then, how much does it cost to paint a bike? They may be worth 3K when where completely hand built- mass production only made it cheaper to produce, but it doesn't mean the manufacturer would pass through the discount on the sales price, because they knew what was the maximum price people was willing to pay. It works with any product. Is a GAP shirt worth what it cost? I don't think it makes any difference whether it is made by a soulful american or an spiritless philippino.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2008, 10:04:32 AM by Raul CB750K1 »

Offline SteveD CB500F

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Re: Anybody Had Any Hands on Experience with a “Brazilian”
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2008, 10:56:09 AM »
Dave, the beauty of the CG was that nobody stole it (or even looked at it) - even when I left the keys in it.

Also, my son Chris threw it up the road more than once at the cost of a couple of indicator lenses and a good kick to get the rest back into shape.

I eBayed it for twice what I paid.

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Offline 333

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Re: Anybody Had Any Hands on Experience with a “Brazilian”
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2008, 11:15:56 AM »
The point I'm trying to make is that, regardless of brand, a $3k guitar is not mass produced.  Yes Fender, Gibson, Martin mass produce some of their guitars.  Martin offers a few models in kit form.  The local WoodCraft Shop offered a class about 3-4 years ago.  For about $800.00 you could, over an 8 or 10 week class make one of these kits, and have a guitar for about half the cost of buying one already built.

Let's talk furniture.  Look carefully at your dining room table.  Or a large coffee table.  You will find seams where multiple planks of wood have been "joined" to make a single smooth surface. (If you don't find a seam, you might have a table made of particle board(wood chips formed with glue)covered with a plastic overlay)  Then look at the average $300.00 to $500.00 guitar.  The front of the body in particular.  You'll find a seam or two there as well.  You won't find one on a $3k guitar because it is made from a single piece if wood.  From a very large and very old tree.  And from that age and size comes cost.
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Offline dave400

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Re: Anybody Had Any Hands on Experience with a “Brazilian”
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2008, 11:29:58 AM »
Dave, the beauty of the CG was that nobody stole it (or even looked at it) - even when I left the keys in it.

Also, my son Chris threw it up the road more than once at the cost of a couple of indicator lenses and a good kick to get the rest back into shape.

I eBayed it for twice what I paid.

Result!

 Steve, the theft thing was my plan for finding a reliable rat bike, given my location and I got it for a ton unseen so I'll see how I get on  :o
    
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Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: Anybody Had Any Hands on Experience with a “Brazilian”
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2008, 12:00:58 PM »
First thing first, I agree about a rat bike. My first bike -I still have it- is a Suzuki GZ250 Marauder. I have been able to buy many parts cheap, including a full bodywork, and replaced the original parts that are stored for the future. Now my bike looks tatty -even when the engine has been carefully run in and is well cared for- and I park it knowing that burglars will rather put their eyes in other bikes.


Back to the "quality" topic, I know 99.99% of furniture today is made of wood chip -"aglomerate" in spanish- or planks done with smaller planks. Furniture manufacturers look for big turnout, so they choose rapid-growing, cheap trees, like pine. Pine trunks are thin, even for adult trees, so there is no way to make a table out of a single plank. And bigger trees takes generations to grow and are expensive -and loved by environmentalist-, so had it not been for cheap furniture nobody could afford "quality" furniture. But the cost of lathing a table leg out of pine or mahogany is the same, in the same way that the cost of machining a guitar body out of wood chip or mahogany is exactly the same; the cost of painting a wood chip or mahogany guitar is exactly the same, only the raw material differs. Where is the difference? The same manufacturer target two different kinds of people: those who are willing to spend 3 grand in a guitar, and those who are only willing to spend 1 grand in a guitar. To justify the bigger price, they need to make the quality of the cheaper one lower, like adding to the expensive one two more layers or clearcoat -that costs pennies- in the same way than adding froth to your Starbucks coffe raise the price in one buck or so: they target to those who are price-sensitive and to those who arent. But the difference in price between the regular coffee and the coffee with froth, cinammon and powder chocolate is negligible.


I visited Gibson factory in Memphis in 2002 and it was a regular plant, not looking like that "traditional" artisan workshop. Sure enough, in the factory shop there was a $6K Les Paul, with an outstanding "tiger eye" wood grain. I doubt it sounded better than another Les Paul half the price. Is the scarcity of the wood grain worth $3K. The price tag was there for those with pockets deep enough to pay the price. Get a professional guitar player make a blind test on different guitars, including chinese guitars, without touching the headstock or body so he can't guess the brand, and you will be surprised of the outcome.


At the end of the day seems that everything ends in Harley, but the Milwaukee factory is the perfect example of a product targeted at those less price-sensitive.


« Last Edit: February 27, 2008, 12:03:47 PM by Raul CB750K1 »

Offline sandcastcb750

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Re: Anybody Had Any Hands on Experience with a “Brazilian”
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2008, 01:00:52 PM »
I have been to Brasil and probably will go again this year.

First, the quality of the Honda's are probably about the same. The CG described is what the Brazilians call "cento e vinte e cinco" or 125. There are hardly any big (250cc and bigger) bikes there because gas is very expensive and vehicles cost a lot. 70 mph may be possible but I was thinking that 100kph /62 mph was tops.

125s are the car for a lot of people. I have seen these 125s running flat out on "cento e um" highway 101 which is the main drag north and south in Brasil. These riders perform amazing feats as they pass trucks and pull back into safety just prior to getting killed.

Honda made the new 400s in Brasil during the eighties. Brasil doesn't want imported motors and parts. So, choices are few. The want it made there.

It is illegal to bring motorcycles and motors into Brasil with some exceptions. They will confiscate your bikes and motors if you do so because they don't want you to import particularly older usable bikes.

Until recently, all post 1974 CB750s were illegal in Brasil, and any Honda CB750 you find newer than 1974 has heated documents. Currently, if you are a collector, belong to a club and the bike is original and 30 years or older, you can apply to have the bike sent to Brasil. The taxes will kill you. 100% tax based on their assessment. I have a friend who has two bikes, a 1975 and 1976 ready to to Brasil. $13,000 tax and the cost is climbing as the dollar to Brazilian Real $R worsens. Shipping is extra, a lot extra.

So, that CG 125 is what they have and can afford in Brasil.

Offline BobbyR

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Re: Anybody Had Any Hands on Experience with a “Brazilian”
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2008, 03:36:17 PM »
Bobby, I won't deny what you say but there are hidden reasons about quality. So you say that the mexican guitar was poorly finished. Does it mean mexicans doesn't know how to paint or clearcoat? I dare to make the assumption that mexicans, having less education than americans, are more used to manual labour. Does it mean that the mexican guitar was poorly finished because not enough time was allowed to the worker? Not likely, because being the hourly wage much lower in Mexico than in the US, it would make sense to cut corners in the alloted time of the american factory, not the mexican factory. The only reason for the mexican guitar to cost less and have lower quality is to justify the outrageous price of the american guitar. With different pricing policies you reach the people who is willing to pay 3K for a guitar and the people who is only willing to pay 1K. Now seriously, what's in a guitar to make it worth 3K? Wood is cheap, paint is cheap, lacquer is cheap, CNC machines a guitar in a couple of minutes.


Rusted chrome? Anything will rust in a humid environment. But it is true that when a bike builder farms out the wheels and buy to the cheapest supplier, the supplier will try to save as much as possible, keeping above the standard or even below as long as the bike manufacturer never notices.


The only place where you can get decent routine-manual labour like bike assembly or clothes manufacturing is in developing countries. People in developed countries will get bored after a month and search for a different job. We are so used to farm out unpleasant labours like housecleaning, lawn mowing and the like that it is unthinkable we would stick to a boring, intensive job. At least that's what i think.

No I do not think Mexican workers or Brazliian workers are less competenet than Americans. When I had some stonework done at my home I had some fellows from Equador do the work. their price was good, but they were truly craftsman. The Americans were all going to use precast blocks, which I could buy in Home Depot and pile up myself. The Central Americans cut and fitted rough stone piece by piece. The flagstone walkway was tricky as I wanted something out of the ordinary, they did a killer job.
Back to the point on quality. It takes time to get an assembly faiclity running smoothly and your quality control in place. Remember I said the Japanese Fender was not much better than the Mexican.
When I looked at the Yamaha, all of the elements came together. When comparing the Japanese Fender against the Japanese Yamaha, the Yamaha was better finshed. What occured to me was that Yamaha has been making musical instruments in Asia for decades, their assembly lines and proceses were stablized.
I own several pistols and one of my favorites is a LLama automatic and it functions well and it is well finished. Spain has a long tradition of making firearms and experience does count.
If I were to look at a Mexican Fender today, it may look perfectly fine. Like I said before experience does count. Except for Harley ;D
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Offline 333

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Re: Anybody Had Any Hands on Experience with a “Brazilian”
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2008, 03:53:22 PM »
Raul-I now realize that we were talking about 2 different types of guitars.  I'm talking acoustic, you're talking electric.  The Les Paul hollow body was(is) a milestone work of art.  I saw a documentary on him last year, quite a man.  He was still playing in small clubs as of last year.
Are you saying that the Les Paul is also made in Mexico?  And were you making a point about ease of painting, or is there someone that makes guitars out of particle board?  Maybe in a solid body, but it would have to be way heavy.
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Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: Anybody Had Any Hands on Experience with a “Brazilian”
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2008, 05:06:26 AM »
Les Pauls are not made in Mexico from what I know. Maybe Epiphone Les Pauls, but I don't know. I do know Fender had a mexican plant. I agree with you, acoustic -or spanish-guitars are a different subject. I know some chinese guitars are made of chipwood, and hey, as long as they are solid enough it doesn't make much difference with the distortion know cracked way open!!!  ;D


Llama pistol? First time I heard about it, but truth be told, I don't have much knowledge in firearms either....

Yamaha.... they are good at everything they do, and as you say, they have been building musical instruments for a century. I have a Samick guitar and Samick also makes fishing equipment.


Back to the original point, one of the most regarded two strokers, the Yamaha RD350, was built during some time in Brazil, and that bike is a bad ass. Haven't heard about anybody complaining about the "brazilian" version. Long story short, get that bike and ran it like if you stole it!

Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: Anybody Had Any Hands on Experience with a “Brazilian”
« Reply #17 on: February 29, 2008, 08:29:28 AM »
Just in case you are interested, I came across a full article about the CG125.... in the official Honda history webpage. Seems that the little commuter bike was important for the factory after all.

http://world.honda.com/history/challenge/1975cg125/index.html


Offline dave400

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Re: Anybody Had Any Hands on Experience with a “Brazilian”
« Reply #18 on: February 29, 2008, 09:10:23 AM »
Just in case you are interested, I came across a full article about the CG125.... in the official Honda history webpage. Seems that the little commuter bike was important for the factory after all.

http://world.honda.com/history/challenge/1975cg125/index.html



Interesting story of the production of the 125 bike, the bike I’ve bought was a complete flop and not many got sold in Europe so production of them stopped from what I’ve read.

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Offline sandcastcb750

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Re: Anybody Had Any Hands on Experience with a “Brazilian”
« Reply #19 on: February 29, 2008, 10:59:08 AM »
That article by Honda was pretty factual about Brazil.

Manaus / Amazon is the place where things come and go tax free.

Offline sandcastcb750

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Re: Anybody Had Any Hands on Experience with a “Brazilian”
« Reply #20 on: February 29, 2008, 11:02:18 AM »
125 a flop?

Go to Brazil and you will see tons of them, everywhere.

Offline dave400

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Re: Anybody Had Any Hands on Experience with a “Brazilian”
« Reply #21 on: February 29, 2008, 11:19:14 AM »
125 a flop?

Go to Brazil and you will see tons of them, everywhere.


I bet the 125’s are all over the place in Brazil, 125’s are a popular bike here also, I’ve bought a 450 made in Brazil and they didn’t sell well at all in Europe so because of the finish so production stopped from what I can gather and Honda replaced it with a 500 twin that was made in ? I’m not sure probably Japan..

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Offline sandcastcb750

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Re: Anybody Had Any Hands on Experience with a “Brazilian”
« Reply #22 on: February 29, 2008, 11:31:31 AM »
I can't remember the number, but, 100km per liter seems the economy of the 125? It is really high though. Maybe somebody knows exactly.

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Re: Anybody Had Any Hands on Experience with a “Brazilian”
« Reply #23 on: February 29, 2008, 04:12:08 PM »
if im not mistaken they still use the lil CG for a training bike up here..
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Offline 333

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Re: Anybody Had Any Hands on Experience with a “Brazilian”
« Reply #24 on: February 29, 2008, 04:35:58 PM »
Much like all the bikes I've owned, I do miss the CB125S.  Both of them.
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