Author Topic: Dead battery? Fix it!  (Read 15284 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

InaneCathode

  • Guest
Dead battery? Fix it!
« on: February 27, 2008, 10:32:48 PM »
Absolutely dead battery? Battery been sitting for a while now it just wont turn your bike over? Charging system sucked your battery dry? Theres a chance you could save it, it only takes time and a couple bucks!

Make sure you're in a well ventilated area or outside on a breezy day. We're playing with various explosive gasses so its best they be dispersed :)

Get a big bucket, fill it halfway with hot water. Get a whole box of baking soda (family size, about 6 by 8 by 2) and dump the entire box in the water. Get a big stick and stir it around until its totally dissolved.

Pop the cell caps off the battery and set them aside. Using your big dishwashing gloves grab the battery and overturn it over the bucket, shake it up and down back and forth to get all the electrolye out and into the bucket. It'll either fizz or do nothing when the electrolyte hits the water.

Set the battery aside and stir the bucket around making sure to get the water up the sides of the inside of the bucket (gets all the acid off the walls of the bucket)

Now fill each cell of the battery up to the top fill line with distilled water. Make sure not to transfer any of the battery juices into the container of distilled water (via turkey baster/syringe). Its also important to note that you DO NOT want to contaminate the battery with the baking soda water, or the baking soda water with the distilled water in the container.

Leave the caps off the battery and hook the battery up to the strongest charger you can find. I use 'start' mode on my ancient roll around charger. It says it puts out 40 amps (somehow i doubt that). Make sure you hook the battery up first and then turn on the charger (trying to avoid sparks here)

I normally charge it at the highest, max smoke setting, for 20 minutes or so. Dont just time it, feel the battery on all sides with your hand (you did wipe the battery off didnt you). It will probably get warm, but when it gets hot (easily touchably hot but definitely towards the warm end of things) its time to stop. The battery will bubble during this process. Vapor will also come out of the cell ports. Nothing to worry about, just try not to concentrate it and breath it in (put your gold colored paper bags away!). The vapor is water vapor, hydrogen, oxygen, and sulpher dioxide (not 100 percent sure on the SiO2, but it is sulpher based).

Turn off the battery charger and unhook the battery. Overturn the battery over the baking soda bucket again, shaking it to get all the fluid out of the battery.

What most likely will happen at this point is the top part of the electrolyte will be inert, meaning no fizzing when it hits the water, but the bottom part of the electrolyte (thinking of the battery cell like a column of water here) will be quite energetic. Whats also likely is none of the fluid you dump out will be energetic, which means the battery is extremely sulphated, which just means things might take longer.

Repeat the above steps about five or six times. At this point the fluid coming out of the battery will at some point stop being so energetic. (Be warned this might end up taking ten times or so). This means that the sulphate is mostly gone and hopefully whats left is fresh plates, ie fresh battery.

Battery electrolyte is apparently hazmat now, so you'll have to take your battery to a battery store and have them fill it. I get mine filled for two bucks. (tell them you dropped your battery and it emptied itself or something, if you tell them what you're doing they'll probably laugh at you).

Put your battery on a slow charge (i do mine at 1 or 2 amps) for two or three hours. This will get the last of the sulphate freed up and also make sure things are operational. Check your battery voltage after this charge. It should be somewhere between 12 and 12.8 volts, possibly 13 if you charged it at a higher rate.

Put your cell caps back on, wipe off the exterior with the baking soda solution (dont get the solution in the battery!) and enjoy your fixed battery :)



[Caveats]
This wont work on ancient batteries. The plates themselves in the battery are physically destroyed. No amount of charging will put them back together again. Two years is right on the fuzzy line of being too old to try this on. Its cheap enough to try it on anything, but you might be wasting time with that 1985 vintage duracell. This process should work on shorted batteries as well, if the shorting is due to a sediment build up. Of course that sedimate is likely lead, which means your plates are destroyed which means you're wasting your time again.
Its obviously always cheaper time wise to buy a new battery, but rescuing an old one is recycling and better for the environment and better for your wallet. This method is for people with more time than money essentially.
__________________

Offline L.A. Nomad........

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 228
  • 1976 CB550 K
Re: Dead battery? Fix it!
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2008, 04:03:10 PM »
Nice trick!

But know guys who would take old motorcycle/scooter batteries and blast out the white deposites with a pressure washer. THen fill it with battery acid and they would work!



L.A. Nomad
I am a fuel-injected suicide machine! I am a rocker! I am a roller! [I’m an outta controller] I am the Chosen One! The Mighty and the Vengeance! Sent down  to strike the unroadworthy! I'm hotter  than a rolling dice!

Offline heffay

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,874
Re: Dead battery? Fix it!
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2008, 04:23:02 PM »
not even touching this one  8) ... i hope twotired does though  ;D
Today: '73 cb350f, '96 Ducati 900 Supersport
Past Rides: '72 tc125, '94 cbr600f2, '76 rd400, '89 ex500, '93 KTM-125exc, '92 zx7r, '93 Banshee, '83 ATC250R, 77/75 cb400f

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: Dead battery? Fix it!
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2008, 04:44:43 PM »
not even touching this one  8) ... i hope twotired does though  ;D

Jeez, I didn't think you hated me THAT much, Heffay!

Er, no thanks.  Science is one thing, but mysticism/anecdotal evidence simply cannot be refuted with any decisiveness.   Why, the variables alone, could fill a book.  No sir!  I'll pass.

Oh, by the way, you know you make batteries out of potatoes with copper and zinc nails?  Could be useful info if you break down in Idaho.

 I'd mention something about EDTA.  But, there is already archival info on that in this forum.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

InaneCathode

  • Guest
Re: Dead battery? Fix it!
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2008, 06:18:06 PM »
I wouldnt use edta as it would eat at both the sulphate and the lead. Of course if you use it carefully it might not but i wouldnt risk it.
I'd love it to pieces if someone tried to refute what i've successfully done several times. I don't believe in that battery store mysticism mentality of 'trace minerals' this and 'proper specific gravity' that. The motorcycle industry has enough of this back room slick-fifty type voodoo theories on how things work. Electricity is magical to alot of people, it just 'works' and they dont know why. So when the battery companies say that you MUST buy a new battery or you MUST buy their electrolyte and noone elses, you HAVE to buy a new battery, once they're dead thats it, people just do it because they dont want to anger the electricty gods.
Lead is lead, sulphuric acid is sulphuric acid, ions are ions. It works because chemically it works. If someone could explain to me why lead sulphate isnt an insulator, and why high amperage cant overcome this insulating effect i'm all ears.
You guys only use HONDA LUBE right?
What! You dont? You dont want to grenade your engine do you!?  ::)
« Last Edit: February 28, 2008, 06:23:58 PM by InaneCathode »

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: Dead battery? Fix it!
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2008, 06:51:50 PM »
I wouldnt use edta as it would eat at both the sulphate and the lead. Of course if you use it carefully it might not but i wouldnt risk it.

Interesting that Yuasa puts EDTA in their premium batteries to extend their life and improve recovery from sulfating (which all batteries do during discharge, BTW). 
But, I'm sure they don't know that much about batteries, battery construction, or the chemistry involved. ::)

Not that I'm trying to sway you away from your core belief system, mind you.  If you or anyone else wants to follow your outlined procedure, don't let me or anyone stop you.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline heffay

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,874
Re: Dead battery? Fix it!
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2008, 06:59:44 PM »
i might give it a shot... i've got a few lying around.
















is it weird that i even hang on to my hazmat?
Today: '73 cb350f, '96 Ducati 900 Supersport
Past Rides: '72 tc125, '94 cbr600f2, '76 rd400, '89 ex500, '93 KTM-125exc, '92 zx7r, '93 Banshee, '83 ATC250R, 77/75 cb400f

InaneCathode

  • Guest
Re: Dead battery? Fix it!
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2008, 08:08:59 PM »
I wouldnt use edta as it would eat at both the sulphate and the lead. Of course if you use it carefully it might not but i wouldnt risk it.

Interesting that Yuasa puts EDTA in their premium batteries to extend their life and improve recovery from sulfating (which all batteries do during discharge, BTW). 
But, I'm sure they don't know that much about batteries, battery construction, or the chemistry involved. ::)

Not that I'm trying to sway you away from your core belief system, mind you.  If you or anyone else wants to follow your outlined procedure, don't let me or anyone stop you.

Cheers,

I know how batteries work btw  ;D I'd be pretty suprised if yuasa put any significant amount of edta in their batteries as edta chemically is indescriminate to metals, it erodes them all. Theres no reason edta in their application would 'prevent' sulphation any more than it would erode the plates and cause early battery failure, which is not something yuasa batteries are known for. They make fantastic batteries, but not because they add fairy dust to their batteries, its because they're production methods and quality control are far and away better than any manufacturer. (caveat tho, they do use a good gelling agent which helps the electrolyte level) Lead is far from chemically inert. One of the reasons they use lead is its affinity to bonding with other ions (lead sulphate, lead peroxide, so on so forth). I'm sure yuasa can say they add whatever they want but chemically significant amounts of edta which i'm sure would help with recovery from sulphation as edta doesnt react with suphuric acid, but it does react with lead and in those amounts it would greatly shorten battery life, all i hear about yuasa batteries is how long they last.
I buy Shell brand gasoline sometimes, but its not because they add "V-Power!tm" fuel additives to it, much in the same way i avoid expensive brand specific oils and chemicals, i believe in quality and consistency but not snake oil.

(Btw im saying this all in the nicest way, i like debating theory, i respect your views on the subject  ;D)

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: Dead battery? Fix it!
« Reply #8 on: February 29, 2008, 01:00:22 AM »
I just checked the Yuasa Web site.  Seems they no longer tout the "Sulfate Stop" they once put in their batteries.

Oh well  :-\  I kinda liked that feature, as I certainly got extended life from them.  :'(
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

InaneCathode

  • Guest
Re: Dead battery? Fix it!
« Reply #9 on: February 29, 2008, 11:51:59 AM »
I just checked the Yuasa Web site.  Seems they no longer tout the "Sulfate Stop" they once put in their batteries.

Oh well  :-\  I kinda liked that feature, as I certainly got extended life from them.  :'(

They make epic batteries, wish i could afford them though :O

Offline Mule Train

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 38
Re: Dead battery? Fix it!
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2008, 10:25:52 AM »
so what happens to the bucket full of ol battery water? Hazmat? or just flows to the ocean?

InaneCathode

  • Guest
Re: Dead battery? Fix it!
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2008, 11:18:31 AM »
Hopefully you mixed in the baking soda at the beginning of the excersize, so the bucket doesnt contain anything besides sulpher salts, water, baking soda and CO2 :)) Its safe to pour down the drain (not if you're on a septic system tho, nothing but waste and water in those, but i digress).

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: Dead battery? Fix it!
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2008, 12:19:14 PM »
If the battery was depleted when you drained it, it also has dissolved heavy metals (plate material; lead, antimony, etc.)

If your drains go to a water treatment plant, better hope they remove those heavy metals before putting the water back in the drinking distribution.
If your private drain goes to a leach field, it goes into the ground water, you likely pump up to your faucets.  Perhaps an RO filter will remove heavy metals?

They may be small amounts, but if everyone in the world gave you a penny, you'd be pretty well off.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

InaneCathode

  • Guest
Re: Dead battery? Fix it!
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2008, 10:09:47 PM »
I'm fairly sure it'd be way way way under epa regulations even if some of the lead ended up in solution, and or you sirred the bucket up to make sure its nice and murky then dumped it.

Offline kghost

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,855
  • www.facebook.com/RetroMecanicaAustralia
Re: Dead battery? Fix it!
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2008, 10:37:13 PM »
Considering i have about 2 gallons of unused battery acid.....I may try that.
Stranger in a strange land

InaneCathode

  • Guest
Re: Dead battery? Fix it!
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2008, 11:42:04 PM »
Try which? Fixing a battery or making a giant science project volcano?

Offline kghost

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,855
  • www.facebook.com/RetroMecanicaAustralia
Re: Dead battery? Fix it!
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2008, 11:44:29 PM »
Try which? Fixing a battery or making a giant science project volcano?

Yes
Stranger in a strange land

InaneCathode

  • Guest
Re: Dead battery? Fix it!
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2008, 12:03:09 AM »
Try which? Fixing a battery or making a giant science project volcano?

Yes

Well that'd be a pretty stupid thing to do then wouldnt it  :o

Offline kghost

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,855
  • www.facebook.com/RetroMecanicaAustralia
Re: Dead battery? Fix it!
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2008, 06:56:17 AM »
Try which? Fixing a battery or making a giant science project volcano?

Yes

Well that'd be a pretty stupid thing to do then wouldnt it  :o

No  ;D
Stranger in a strange land

Offline Patrick

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,398
Re: Dead battery? Fix it!
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2009, 01:57:35 PM »
Did anyone ever try this? I have a dead battery and much more time than money right now....
1970 CB750 K0
1982 VF750S Sabre
1987 VT1100 Shadow
1979 Yamaha XS11
1969 Yamaha DT1B
etc.

Offline kirkn

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,046
Re: Dead battery? Fix it!
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2009, 11:18:01 AM »
Yep.  I have done it, before reading this thread just now for the first time.  Works fine.  I've 'recovered' three or four batteries this way.

Offline Patrick

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,398
Re: Dead battery? Fix it!
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2009, 01:31:42 PM »
I decided to give this shot since I already had distilled water and baking soda. My battery isn't really old, but it was really dead. I inadvertently left the ignition in the run position for two days. On top of that, when I pulled the dead battery I discovered that it had essentially NO water in it. I filled it with water and put it on my Craftsman charger, but the charger kicked off almost immediately, telling me the battery was bad. A real challenge.

So far I am amazed. I followed the procedure and filled it with distilled water about five times. The fifth time the damn thing took and held a charge with nothing but the distilled water and sulfate residue. I drained it again and put in fresh acid and charged it up again. I let it sit about two hours and tested the voltage. It read 12.8 volts. I plan to let it sit overnight to see if it holds the charge.

If you see no subsequent posting from me, assume the battery held the charge.

I've got a really grungy battery in the shed I'm going to try next. I still have water and acid. It would be nice to have a battery in reserve.

Patrick
« Last Edit: March 20, 2009, 01:37:34 PM by Patrick »
1970 CB750 K0
1982 VF750S Sabre
1987 VT1100 Shadow
1979 Yamaha XS11
1969 Yamaha DT1B
etc.

Offline BeSeeingYou

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,913
Re: Dead battery? Fix it!
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2009, 03:43:50 PM »
The idea behind this about removing the sulfate is a valid one.  I have some experience with large battery banks on liveaboard sailboats and also have some friends into the "lifestyle".  We periodically condition our battery banks  with  a low amp but elevated voltage charge to remove the sulfate from the plates.  Now these are deep cycle batteries that are more heavy duty than a starting battery and it requires a smart regulator that allows for voltage adjustments.  Whether a starting battery is up to this kind of treatment I am not sure.

Horridstorm

  • Guest
Re: Dead battery? Fix it!
« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2009, 06:02:27 PM »
Yep I've done the same to more than a few batteries.i have a bad habit of leaving ignitions on or overcharging.There's a local battery shop here that remanufactures old batteries and sales them as their own brand.The old guy that owns the place says it does work to an extent as long as the battery is fairly new and has a good set of plates.I guess the cheap auto chain batteries are very crude and don't last long on purpose.Very thin plates that burn through before they ever build up enough to short out.Especially lawn/cycle batteries.Make sure you do not put anything but distilled water in a battery. Anyway he makes his own plates and they are thicker.I bought an auto battery from him 8 yrs ago and it's still at 12.7 volts.It's a sealed maintenance free deal so the water/electrolyte levels are not checkable.I've since bought 4 more of their cycle batteries and have yet to have one fail.I guess you get what you pay for.

Offline tbpmusic

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 791
Re: Dead battery? Fix it!
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2009, 08:07:24 AM »
I can reply as a chemist here -

The sulfur smell given off would actually be hydrogen sulfide (H2S), rather than sulfur dioxide.

And EDTA is a commonly used "chelator", or a material that actively and preferentially attaches to and binds up heavy metal molecules (among others). This in addition to it's many other uses, like as a food preservative.
In fact, the common treatment for lead poisoning would be EDTA injections.
I used to do battery research - we had to have regular blood tests to look for lead - if our levels rose, we'd have to get EDTA injections for a while. Binds the lead and exits in your urine.....

Speaking from info gained in my research, lead acid batteries charge at a certain potential  - increase that potential and water starts to boil off. The difference between those two potentials is called the "overvoltage".
As the battery ages and gets "used up", that overvoltage decreases until finally there is no charging, only water loss.
Maintenance free or sealed lead acid batteries incorporate a calculated amount of antimony in the materials of the battery - this increases and maintaians the overvoltage at an acceptable level - results in no loss of water due to boil off, thus no need to ever add water.
I worked for the guy (John Devitt) who invented sealed lead acid batteries for the Gates Rubber company, and hundreds of lead acid batteries have gone to an early autopsy and grave at my hands, tortured to death in unspeakable ways.....

Sulfonation is a different critter entirely, and actually shorts out the battery plates.

As for this rehab process, I can't comment on that. I would just guess the effects are short-lived, but I've never actually tried it myself.
My experience is killin' 'em, not resurrecting them........
"If you can't fix it with a hammer, then it's an electrical problem"

Bill Lane
 '71 CB450 Mutant/ '75 CB200/ '81 CM200/ '71 C70M