Author Topic: I’m desperate, I can’t get this cb650 to idle good for nothing!  (Read 9872 times)

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Offline scott_cb650

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I’ve spent weeks searching and reading and I’m still totally frustrated.
I can’t get it to idle consistently without using the choke, even when it’s plenty hot.

I have owned this moto for three years, 1979 cb650. It is all stock, carbs, jets, pipes, filters, etc.
It runs great except for the idle.

I have always had a problem with air leaks (I think) on this bike and have had a hard time getting it to idle at a steady rate.
When it would no longer idle at all and die practically as soon as I pulled the clutch, I decided it was time to give the carbs a good cleaning, hopefully better than the two previous cleanings.
I found several places where I think it was leaking air.  My boots were cracked and the choke rod had no kind of felt washers or o-rings around them letting plenty of air in the carbs.

I replaced the air cut-off valves,
replace the carb boots with good ones,
put o-rings around the choke rods where they went through each carb and
replaced the plugs.

I also made sure the low speed, pressed in jets were plenty clean by running a thin wire through them.  I also soaked and sprayed everything else on the carbs to make sure they were clean. 

I set the pilot screws back to factory setting, which is close to where they were, 1 and 5/8 turn.

I balance the carbs with a vacuum gauge. I couldn’t get it to idle at 1050 RPM so I balanced them at a higher speed, around 1500.  Does this matter?

BUT I STILL CAN’T GET THE STUPID THING TO IDLE consistently at a low RPM.
After the RPMs drop below 2000, if falls like a rock.

If I micro-fine adjust the idle adjust screw I can get it to idle with the choke partially pulled out.  Problem then is that it takes a long time to come down to idle, if at all, when the RPM exceed 2000.

Also when the RPMs are below 2000 and I bump the throttle it bogs down and dies quicker. (I don’t know if this is flooding or an air delivery problem)

It also seems to be smoking more than normal now. (for what that’s worth)

Please let me know if you have any suggestion and I’m sorry I couldn’t make this shorter but I wanted to try and answer any question ahead of time.
Why worry about tomorrow for tomorrow has enough troubles of it's own.

Offline mattcb350f

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Re: I’m desperate, I can’t get this cb650 to idle good for nothing!
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2008, 08:07:38 PM »
Well it seems you've done everything possible to ensure that the carbs are working properly so maybe it's another problem.

The colour of the smoke (and the fact that it is now smoking) is a good clue as to what's going on. Black smoke = Rich mixture, Blue/White smoke = Buring OIL

If it's black smoke than the carbs are putting too much fuel into the engine and this would probably mean the bike is flooding out at low idle.

If it's blue smoke than the bike is burning oil from somewhere and I would suspect its comming past the rings. My 125 has poor compression and acts the same way. Won't idle down below around 2000 Rpm and only the choke will barely allow it to do 1000 Rpm, and the carb is working fine and no air leaks.

Other things to check would be valve clearance, but since you said it's started smoking I suspect this has something to do with the idle problem.

 Matt.
1974 CB350F,  1980 CB125S,  1981 XL80S
Non Honda's: 86 & 87 Husqvarna 400wr's

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: I’m desperate, I can’t get this cb650 to idle good for nothing!
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2008, 09:28:44 PM »
Have you done a compression test?

Are you certain the slow jets are clear?  And that contaminated fuel did block them again after cleaning?

Did you verify that the 4 exit holes and the passageways in the carb body between them are clear? (Air jet, IMS, pilot jet, and delivery orifice in the carb throat.)

Are you certain the slides haven't been installed backwards?  The cutaway should face the air filter.

I'm assuming you do NOT have CV carbs, btw.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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InaneCathode

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Re: I’m desperate, I can’t get this cb650 to idle good for nothing!
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2008, 09:30:30 PM »
Pause

Hows your battery voltage? It'll idle like crap if you've got low voltage.

Unpause

Offline eurban

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Re: I’m desperate, I can’t get this cb650 to idle good for nothing!
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2008, 06:01:17 AM »
If you simply ran the wire through the pilots without pulling them, then you have more work to do.  Pull your pressed in idle jets out and clean them and the passages that they were removed from.  If you are not confident with your synchronizing procedure, make sure that you bench synch the carbs first.  This should get the synch  close enough that it won't be the cause of significant idling issues.  Guage synching will be easier now.  Do a "reality" test of the level of fuel in the bowls.  Whats that?  Well if when you crack open up the drain screws, fuel flows out of the brass overflow nubs (Pre 77 750 carbs don't work like this but I bet your 650 does) then you can connect up clear tubing to the brass overflow tubes.  Put the carbs level in a vice, or if on the bike, have the bike on the centerstand and on levelish ground. Start with empy bowls. Hold or tape the clear tubing up along the carb bodies.  Open the drain screws and turn on the fuel (if your carbs are in a vice you will need to rig a fuel supply).  The level that the fuel settles out in the tubes is the actual level of fuel in the bowls.  It should be just about even with the bowl to carb body seam and identical from carb to carb.  Hopefully some of this will help!
« Last Edit: March 04, 2008, 06:08:00 AM by eurban »

Offline scott_cb650

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Re: I’m desperate, I can’t get this cb650 to idle good for nothing!
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2008, 06:53:06 AM »
Ah, good questions.

mattcb350f
I would say the smoke color is white. Kinda hard to tell since it smokes mostly at initial throttle and is hard to see in the day light. I notice it mostly from initial throttle up, then it clears.  I don't doubt that it may be burning a little oil but I'm not ready to tackle that job considering how my carb work has been.

It's been about 2 years since I adjusted the valve clearances.

TwoTired (I like that name)
Haven't done a compression test.  I'll put that at the top of the list.

"Slow jets clear? Did you verify that the 4 exit holes and the passageways in the carb body between them are clear? (Air jet, IMS, pilot jet, and delivery orifice in the carb throat.)" - Well I'm as certain as can be. I soaked, poked and blew until I could find no more to do. Every thing that was, or looked like, a hole, I cleared it. The specific terms you reference, I'll have to go back to the books to see.

Contaminated fuel? - I do worry about this since the recent mandate of 10% ethanol gasoline has caused quite a bit of problems.  I haven't found a 10 micron in-line filter yet that I can squeeze in there so I added one of the types that used the "white cloth" material wrapped around a plastic frame.  I was using a filter before the cleaning with the inside that looks like a brass cone-shaped stone.
Filter looks like this: http://www.adiesel.com/baldwinfilters/BF7863.html?cbref=31,5,BF7863

Number 2 for the list, check the "slides" and number 3 type of carbs.

InaneCathode
Battery voltage - I'm hoping it's good since I replaced the battery when I put the cleaned carbs back on.

eurban
I've tried very hard to pull those slow jets out and they won't budge.  I fear I would have to drill to get them out.

Bench synching - I really don't want to pull the carbs off again, only as a last resort.  It's a major b!tch for me to pull them.
I'm hoping I can discover the cure without pulling them, or at least wait until the dead of summer when it's too hot to ride.
It's perfect riding season now, here in the Houston area.

Fuel level test in the bowls sounds interesting except I don't think my carbs don't have drain screws.  Just a hole in the bottom connected to a shaft within the bowl. (List item number 4, check the bowl drain method)

Thanks for the questions.  I'll do my homework to find the remaining answers.

Scott
Why worry about tomorrow for tomorrow has enough troubles of it's own.

Offline cb650

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Re: I’m desperate, I can’t get this cb650 to idle good for nothing!
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2008, 08:08:45 AM »
When i put my 80 back together I had the same problem. 79/80 same carbs. (81/82 CV's)  after going through them several times I just cleaned and put on another set. Got it to idle then. Havent looked at the other set to see if I could find whats wrong with them.




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Offline mattcb350f

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Re: I’m desperate, I can’t get this cb650 to idle good for nothing!
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2008, 09:34:26 AM »
Did you verify that the 4 exit holes and the passageways in the carb body between them are clear? (Air jet, IMS, pilot jet, and delivery orifice in the carb throat.)

That reminds me, good point TwoTired. On some of the carbs I've worked on the passage ways aren't strait (can't see light through cause of bends). I run a wire in from the top and up from the bottom and figured they were clear. Still wouldn't idle. Turns out there was a little piece of crud stuck half way. Now I make sure that I see the wire come out the other end to confirm it's clear  ;)
1974 CB350F,  1980 CB125S,  1981 XL80S
Non Honda's: 86 & 87 Husqvarna 400wr's

My CB350F resto: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=30467.0
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Offline eurban

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Re: I’m desperate, I can’t get this cb650 to idle good for nothing!
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2008, 09:54:43 AM »
It is highly likely that since you didn't pull your pressed in pilots that they are still not functioning properly.  In addition to the tiny hole that runs straight thru there are holes on the sides as well.  Also any crud that you manage to dislodge from the jet will likely still remain in the passages.  There have been umpteen posts RE dealing with and removing pressed in pilots.  Do a search on this site for all the ins and outs and to build your confidence.  Bottom line is that it can and should be done if there is any reason (your symptoms are pretty typical) to suspect idle circuit impairment.  A pair of plyers (leather for padding) and a jiggle/twist/pull and they will come out. . . . . Do your bowls have a screw to drain the fuel?  When you open the drain screw, where does the fuel come out?  If it comes out a brass nub pressed into the bottom of the float bowl (which might already have black rubber line attached) then you can check your float settings as I described. I have found that inspite of measuring and setting the float levels to correct specs that the results aren't always predictable, even or correct.  Actually seeing the fuel level is believing. . . . If the riding is nice now and you don't need to fix this issue to use the bike than by all means don't remove your carbs.  However, if you want to fix your problem I would guess that pulling the carbs is in your future.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2008, 10:24:49 AM by eurban »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: I’m desperate, I can’t get this cb650 to idle good for nothing!
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2008, 10:58:29 AM »
Quote
I've tried very hard to pull those slow jets out and they won't budge.  I fear I would have to drill to get them out.
Oh they will budge.  You just have to supply mote will than they have.  Do NOT drill.
 If you don't have a set of parallel pliers, then wrap the jet body in leather and grab them with water pump pliers. Pull hard.
I check the passageways with aerosol carb cleaner.  They have small tubes for the nozzle that allow you to put pressurized cleaning liquid into those 4 holes.

The air jet is near the carb inlet entrance.
The IMS is your Idle Mixture Screw (Watch for a small spring, washer, and oring behind it.  (These are wannabe escape artists looking for an opportunity to practice their secondary vocation. Be warned.)
The slow jet is the brass thing your wrestle away from the carb body.
The carb throat exit hole is... well , right where you'd expect it.

With the parts removed the carb body, squirt carb fluid into each orifice while blocking two.  If you do this to each hole, you have verified the the carb body flow path to ALL holes.  Wear eye protection.

Finally, if you can't see light through the slow jet, fuel can't get through it either.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline scott_cb650

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Re: I’m desperate, I can’t get this cb650 to idle good for nothing!
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2008, 11:37:13 AM »
When i put my 80 back together I had the same problem. 79/80 same carbs. (81/82 CV's)  after going through them several times I just cleaned and put on another set. Got it to idle then. Havent looked at the other set to see if I could find whats wrong with them.

I've thought about that and it's looking like a better option now.
At least I can ride while I'm working on the other carb set.
Why worry about tomorrow for tomorrow has enough troubles of it's own.

Offline Soos

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Re: I’m desperate, I can’t get this cb650 to idle good for nothing!
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2008, 06:25:25 AM »
+1 on the cleaning the slow jets.
Pulling the carbs, you're going to have to anyways with a new set of carbs.
Removing 12 bolts, and pulling floats off, and main jets, pulling the slow jets, and cleaning them out  IMO is cheap compared to a good running set of carbs.


When thinking of carbs, remember, any carbs that are spaced as cb750 stock carbs will line up with the '79cb650 head.

I happen to be running a '73cb750 carbs on my '79cb650.
Have been quite pleased with them.
However, there were setup headaches such as needing to bend the cable hanger to clear the head, and finding a push cable that worked.
Turned out to be the one from my '81cb650 that worked out for me.


l8r
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(61mm)652cc 1979 cb650

Offline eurban

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Re: I’m desperate, I can’t get this cb650 to idle good for nothing!
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2008, 06:30:51 AM »
Soos-

Just curioius . . .Didn't Honda change the head castings /carb spacings on the 650 when they went from slide carbs on the 79 (80 too?) to the CV carbs on the later models?  If so then this carb compatibility (with the 750) is only for the earlier 650s?
« Last Edit: March 05, 2008, 06:38:44 AM by eurban »

Offline goon 1492

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Re: I’m desperate, I can’t get this cb650 to idle good for nothing!
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2008, 06:53:39 AM »
I know you guys are probably past the smokin thing but if it only smokes on warmup that is a valve guide problem,it will smoke until the valve guides have a chance to warmup and expand sealing the gap  that isforming between the guide and valve from wearing out and the compression test will help seal the deal with this too as bad compression=rings wearing down, other than that i'm with everybody else on the cleaning out the carbs slow jets, if they are not right it will give you nothing but poor running conditions and bad headaches. Hope this helps
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Offline Soos

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Re: I’m desperate, I can’t get this cb650 to idle good for nothing!
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2008, 06:59:39 AM »
Soos-

Just curioius . . .Didn't Honda change the head castings /carb spacings on the 650 when they went from slide carbs on the 79 (80 too?) to the CV carbs on the later models?  If so then this carb compatibility (with the 750) is only for the earlier 650s?

YES they did.

If the 650 has the older piston type carbs, 750 carbs will work, the newer CV carb heads are not able to use 750 carbs.

I have tried to match the spacing up even trying to use 750 boots, either from the SOHC or DOHC. But so far no luck. Even though the CV heads do have the intake ports more in-line with the cylinders. For those heads the VB44c carbs are best from what I have heard, as they have a screw in slow speed(idle) jet.


The '79 and '80 do use the same spacing, the european Z model, at least through '80 as well all have the same spacing on the head.
I'm not 100% sure all '80 cb650(us) models used the Piston type carbs though.
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Offline scott_cb650

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Re: I’m desperate, I can’t get this cb650 to idle good for nothing!
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2008, 07:17:04 AM »
I'm really impressed with the wealth of information from you guys.  Thanks a bunch.
Please forgive me if I can't get the answers fast enough.
With three kids (actively playing baseball and softball right now) my life is not always my own.
Therefore I am reduced to a weekend mechanic.

So far I have resolved to the fact that I'll have to pull the carbs again.  I should be getting better at it by now.  I will be scanning eBay again for something that may fit at a cheap price.

I'm still working on the answers to the following questions / tasks:
1) Results of a compression test
2) Are they CV carbs. I kinda doubt it but I need to confirm.
3) Check if the slides were assembled in the correct postion
4) Check for carb drain screws, if present, check float levels

BTW: It does smoke at low speeds, even when warm.
I'm sure the valves need work.  As mentioned, maybe the compression test will yield a clue.

More to come . . .

« Last Edit: March 05, 2008, 11:01:04 AM by scott_cb650 »
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Offline scott_cb650

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Re: I’m desperate, I can’t get this cb650 to idle good for nothing!
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2008, 07:42:56 AM »
The IMS is your Idle Mixture Screw (Watch for a small spring, washer, and oring behind it.  (These are wannabe escape artists looking for an opportunity to practice their secondary vocation. Be warned.)

Is this the same as a "pilot screw" referenced in the books?
If so, does it regulate air flow or fuel flow?

Thanks,
Scott
Why worry about tomorrow for tomorrow has enough troubles of it's own.

Offline Soos

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Re: I’m desperate, I can’t get this cb650 to idle good for nothing!
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2008, 07:50:04 AM »

I am reduced to a weekend mechanic.


I'm still working on the answers to the following questions / tasks:
2) Are they CV carbs. I kinda doubt it but I need to confirm.
3) Check the at the slides were assembled in the correct postion
4) Check for carb drain screws, if present, check float levels

BTW: It does smoke at low speeds, even when warm.
I'm sure the valves need work.  As mentioned, maybe the compression test will yield a clue.

More to come . . .




As for whether they are CV or not...
When looking down at the tops of the carbs, are there 4 round stew pot looking things on top of your carbs or 4 covers that are oval looking ?
The round covers are roughly 1  1/2"+ tall, the oval covers are about 1/2" tall.

I just looked at my '79 650 carbs, and I am wondering if i put mine on right!!!
So i'm no real help at the moment on that...


 


l8r
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Just think to yourself what would Alowishus Devander Abercrombie do?
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(61mm)652cc 1979 cb650

Offline eurban

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Re: I’m desperate, I can’t get this cb650 to idle good for nothing!
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2008, 07:51:05 AM »
Yes the IMS screw and the pilot screw would be the same thing.  This screw controls fuel so clockwise (tighten) leans and counter (loosen) richens.  If your carbs are stock then they are of the slide variety and not CVs.  As mentioned the CVs will not fit on the 79 so unless your engine / head has been swapped then you have the slide carbs. 

Offline Soos

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Re: I’m desperate, I can’t get this cb650 to idle good for nothing!
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2008, 07:51:16 AM »
The IMS is your Idle Mixture Screw (Watch for a small spring, washer, and oring behind it.  (These are wannabe escape artists looking for an opportunity to practice their secondary vocation. Be warned.)

Is this the same as a "pilot screw" referenced in the books?
If so, does it regulate air flow or fuel flow?

Thanks,
Scott


Yes it is, and i'm not 100% sure, but i think it restricts the fuel.

-=≡ Soos ≡=-
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: I’m desperate, I can’t get this cb650 to idle good for nothing!
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2008, 09:19:21 AM »
So far I have resolved to the fact that I'll have to pull the carbs again. 
I think that's a good call.

2) Are they CV carbs. I kinda doubt it but I need to confirm.
A quick glance at the bike will answer that.
CV carbs have a very round 2-3 inch diameter inverted cup siting right on top of each carb, that houses a large vacuum piston inside.  Otherwise, you'll find a simpler cover plate on non-CV carbs.

BTW: It does smoke at low speeds, even when warm.
Color of the smoke would be a problem area indicator.  White "smoke" is likely condensation turning to steam a the pipe/muffler heats up.  Depending on outside air temperature (OAT) and humidty conditions, this is very normal to see.  And, it takes a good long while to completely convert all the water at cold outside temps.  20 minutes on the freeway should do it, if the OAT is above 40-50 F.  It can take much longer to stop the steam cloud sitting in your driveway, and you would probably overheat the air cooled cylinders in the process.

If the color has a blue tint, then that indicates oil ingress.  This could be from piston rings, or valve guides, valve guide seals, or oil in your fuel.  The bluer the tint the more severe the oil ingress.  I get the impression that you haven't ridden the bike much due the idle issue.  If you have, then the higher than normal engine temps that result from a lean mixture, have impacted the fit of the various parts which could allow more oil creepage into the cylinders.  In either case, deffer addressing a perceived oil burn issue, till after you get the carbs operating properly.  Frequent use, and or normal operating temps just might make any oil tint simply stop.

If the smoke is black, that indicates unburned hydrocarbons, resulting from a too rich mixture, or poor combustion.


The IMS is your Idle Mixture Screw (Watch for a small spring, washer, and oring behind it.  (These are wannabe escape artists looking for an opportunity to practice their secondary vocation. Be warned.)

Is this the same as a "pilot screw" referenced in the books?
If so, does it regulate air flow or fuel flow?

Yes, pilot screw is another term for that part.
You gave a trick question, as on your carbs, the IMS actually meters both air AND fuel.  It does, however, behave as a fuel metering screw.

The carb's slow system is provided fuel from the metering jet (Slow, pilot, or idle; reference terms) and from the air jet at the carb entrance.  When you get your slow jet pulled you will see a small tube on the blind side with cross drilled holes.  This mixes air with the fuel from the jet and creates a froth.  The small tube is called an emulsion tube and your mains circuit has one, too, only bigger.  Anyway, the frothed fuel then travels down a carb passageway to a mixture screw which controls overall flow of the froth delivery to the exit hole in the carb throat, where it is mixed with even more air traveling past the slides (or throttle valve).

(For readers that have earlier style carbs, your carbs have the same type of slow circuit, except that instead of adjusting the total froth flow, your Idle Air Bleed screw is positioned in the path between air jet and the fuel jet emulsion tube, and meters the amount of air that can get to the emulsion tube or the ratio of air in the froth.)

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline scott_cb650

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Re: I’m desperate, I can’t get this cb650 to idle good for nothing!
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2008, 06:41:01 AM »
Still no bench time for the moto but I'm on vacation next week and hope to get to it.

Found an interesting article on carbs with a couple of good links at the bottom:
http://www.dansmc.com/carbs2.htm

Peace.
Why worry about tomorrow for tomorrow has enough troubles of it's own.

Offline scott_cb650

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Re: I’m desperate, I can’t get this cb650 to idle good for nothing!
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2008, 08:32:58 PM »
Finally got some time to pull the carbs today.
I don't think they are CV carbs.
Why worry about tomorrow for tomorrow has enough troubles of it's own.

Offline scott_cb650

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Re: I’m desperate, I can’t get this cb650 to idle good for nothing!
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2008, 08:47:02 PM »
I finally got one out!  Wah hoo!
Here's a picture of a low speed jet.

Anything I need to do besides make sure all 8 holes and clear and it's clear through the middle?

I can put a thin wire (from a wire brush) through the holes, from one side to the other but the wire won't go through the jet lengh-wise.  Carb cleaner and air does go through.

I can't see anything in the hole it came out of.  I assume I just need to make sure the walls are clean and the hole is clear.

Thanks,
Scott
Why worry about tomorrow for tomorrow has enough troubles of it's own.

Offline Soos

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Re: I’m desperate, I can’t get this cb650 to idle good for nothing!
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2008, 04:57:54 AM »
Thats about it.

Be careful re-installing them though.
No need to trash your carbs after that much effort for that little part.


Why they cheesed out and didn't make that part screw in for the '79 is beyond me.
Has anyone ever replaced the pressed in slow jet with a screw in type?
If so, what were the results?

l8r
-=≡ Soos ≡=-
Just think to yourself what would Alowishus Devander Abercrombie do?
"Brix will be shat by your neighbors." - schwebel
(61mm)652cc 1979 cb650