Author Topic: I am considering a complete set of engine bolts and screws. ??  (Read 3992 times)

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Offline heffay

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what do you recommend?
Today: '73 cb350f, '96 Ducati 900 Supersport
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Offline mark

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Re: I am considering a complete set of engine bolts and screws. ??
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2008, 09:06:04 PM »
metric.
1976 CB550K, 1973 CB350G, 1964 C100

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Offline heffay

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Re: I am considering a complete set of engine bolts and screws. ??
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2008, 09:10:19 PM »
and thank you cracker jack.   :P
Today: '73 cb350f, '96 Ducati 900 Supersport
Past Rides: '72 tc125, '94 cbr600f2, '76 rd400, '89 ex500, '93 KTM-125exc, '92 zx7r, '93 Banshee, '83 ATC250R, 77/75 cb400f

Offline mark

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Re: I am considering a complete set of engine bolts and screws. ??
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2008, 09:27:18 PM »
well gee..... nobody came up with a helpful answer so maybe an unhelpful answer was better than nothing?

There are a mess on fleabay but they either have a bunch of weird sizes and not enough of the right sizes.... or..... seller is in Outer Mongolia and shipping costs 4X as much as the hardware. bah.

I seem to recall a member mentioned on the part source page?


Cheers.


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F you mark...... F you.

Offline heffay

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Re: I am considering a complete set of engine bolts and screws. ??
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2008, 09:32:36 PM »
was thinking allen... just trying to think of all the hard to reach spots though... and, how much more or less difficult they might be if they were allens.   ???
Today: '73 cb350f, '96 Ducati 900 Supersport
Past Rides: '72 tc125, '94 cbr600f2, '76 rd400, '89 ex500, '93 KTM-125exc, '92 zx7r, '93 Banshee, '83 ATC250R, 77/75 cb400f

Offline mark

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Re: I am considering a complete set of engine bolts and screws. ??
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2008, 09:40:51 PM »
lots more options available for getting allens out of tough spots than those cursed oddball cross-point screws ??? ??? ???

1976 CB550K, 1973 CB350G, 1964 C100

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Offline DammitDan

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Re: I am considering a complete set of engine bolts and screws. ??
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2008, 09:44:04 PM »
Allens or hex bolts would be so much nicer on the carb bowls, especially...
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Offline kghost

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Re: I am considering a complete set of engine bolts and screws. ??
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2008, 09:45:14 PM »
Be different go with a Robertson...as a homage to our neighbors in the north  ;D
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Offline DammitDan

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Re: I am considering a complete set of engine bolts and screws. ??
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2008, 09:51:25 PM »
You mean the Russians?  Shouldn't it be a Robertski then?

Or is that too far north  ;D
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Offline kghost

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Re: I am considering a complete set of engine bolts and screws. ??
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2008, 10:39:17 PM »
Yeah like across the pole .... :o

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Offline Klark Kent

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Re: I am considering a complete set of engine bolts and screws. ??
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2008, 10:55:04 PM »

wpnssgt_usaf's 550 build thread had a couple links to bolt set sources.
-KK
-KK

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www.blindpilotmovie.com

download the shop manual:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=17788.0
you'll feel better.

listen to your spark plugs:
http://www.4secondsflat.com/Spark_plug_reading.html

Offline heffay

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Re: I am considering a complete set of engine bolts and screws. ??
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2008, 07:13:58 AM »
now those are some nice options... those lockhart phillips bolt sets come in silver, gold, blue, black or red!! 

that decision alone might just add another year to my build thread   ;D

i agree w/ you guys on the allens... i really hate stripping screw heads or simply just having to put all my force at a screw to keep the driver in the slot instead of being able to use all that force toward the twisting of the screw. 

Today: '73 cb350f, '96 Ducati 900 Supersport
Past Rides: '72 tc125, '94 cbr600f2, '76 rd400, '89 ex500, '93 KTM-125exc, '92 zx7r, '93 Banshee, '83 ATC250R, 77/75 cb400f

Offline Cvillechopper

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Re: I am considering a complete set of engine bolts and screws. ??
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2008, 07:36:52 AM »
I just ordered a set from this place for the 350 rebuild.  I'll let you know how they are when they get here (just ordered on Tuesday) but I like the organization of the sets.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=021&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=310030910703&rd=1

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Offline cb750k7

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Re: I am considering a complete set of engine bolts and screws. ??
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2008, 07:48:43 AM »
Hi,
I have ordered a set last week, from
http://www.stainlesscycle.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=46

They charged a decent price for S+H ($11) overseas.

Will let you know when the set will arrive.

Cheers

Jona
Found real friends here !!!

Offline heffay

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Re: I am considering a complete set of engine bolts and screws. ??
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2008, 09:10:56 AM »
wow... both of you very recently.

i'm not seeing a set for the cb400f.
Today: '73 cb350f, '96 Ducati 900 Supersport
Past Rides: '72 tc125, '94 cbr600f2, '76 rd400, '89 ex500, '93 KTM-125exc, '92 zx7r, '93 Banshee, '83 ATC250R, 77/75 cb400f

Offline TwoTired

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Re: I am considering a complete set of engine bolts and screws. ??
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2008, 09:47:02 AM »
i agree w/ you guys on the allens... i really hate stripping screw heads or simply just having to put all my force at a screw to keep the driver in the slot instead of being able to use all that force toward the twisting of the screw. 

Then learn not to bugger your screw heads with worn out and ill fitting drivers.  ;)

The phillips screw head was originally designed to cam-out (instead of break-off), in manufacturing procedures with unskilled laborers who over-torqued on installation with power drivers.  It was far less costly to replace the screw, than drill out or restore threads in the host device.

If you look closely at a new phillips screw, and a new driver tip, you will see that the mating surfaces are vertical in the plane that provides rotational force.  Worn bits aren't vertical anymore and wear the screws mating surfaces into a ramp as well.  When either the screw head or the driver tip develop a ramp where is should be vertical, cam out is virtually guaranteed, (without large insertion force pressures, that is).
Further, there is a very good reason why drivers come with numbers like #1, #2, #3, etc.  Using the wrong one to remove a screw will bugger the head AND increase wear the driver. 

For those of you #$%*ing about buggered screw heads, ask yourself if you'd rather helicoil the base castings instead of replacing screws.  Or, are you using a properly set torque driver on everything?
If you are using the torque-till-it-yields-and-back-off-1/8-turn method of installation, better stick to those crosspoint screws and develop a larger expletive vocabulary.  :)

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Cvillechopper

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Re: I am considering a complete set of engine bolts and screws. ??
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2008, 10:25:55 AM »
i agree w/ you guys on the allens... i really hate stripping screw heads or simply just having to put all my force at a screw to keep the driver in the slot instead of being able to use all that force toward the twisting of the screw. 

Then learn not to bugger your screw heads with worn out and ill fitting drivers.  ;)

The phillips screw head was originally designed to cam-out (instead of break-off), in manufacturing procedures with unskilled laborers who over-torqued on installation with power drivers.  It was far less costly to replace the screw, than drill out or restore threads in the host device.

If you look closely at a new phillips screw, and a new driver tip, you will see that the mating surfaces are vertical in the plane that provides rotational force.  Worn bits aren't vertical anymore and wear the screws mating surfaces into a ramp as well.  When either the screw head or the driver tip develop a ramp where is should be vertical, cam out is virtually guaranteed, (without large insertion force pressures, that is).
Further, there is a very good reason why drivers come with numbers like #1, #2, #3, etc.  Using the wrong one to remove a screw will bugger the head AND increase wear the driver. 

For those of you #$%*ing about buggered screw heads, ask yourself if you'd rather helicoil the base castings instead of replacing screws.  Or, are you using a properly set torque driver on everything?
If you are using the torque-till-it-yields-and-back-off-1/8-turn method of installation, better stick to those crosspoint screws and develop a larger expletive vocabulary.  :)

Cheers,

Very informative.  Too bad it doesn't address the problem most of us deal with or provide a potential solution.  I would wager that very few, if any, of us use "power drivers" to tighten engine case screws so we are not in need of a built-in mechanism for protecting the cases.  What we do need is something the will help reduce, when the time comes to remove said case cover screws, the number of them that strip due to insufficient rotational force to break the hold that time, heat, and inevitable minor corrosion have caused.
Use your cross-points if you like.  They're antiquated and only useful if you prefer form over function.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.  Aristotle

Offline TwoTired

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Re: I am considering a complete set of engine bolts and screws. ??
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2008, 12:13:07 PM »
i agree w/ you guys on the allens... i really hate stripping screw heads or simply just having to put all my force at a screw to keep the driver in the slot instead of being able to use all that force toward the twisting of the screw. 

Then learn not to bugger your screw heads with worn out and ill fitting drivers.  ;)

The phillips screw head was originally designed to cam-out (instead of break-off), in manufacturing procedures with unskilled laborers who over-torqued on installation with power drivers.  It was far less costly to replace the screw, than drill out or restore threads in the host device.

If you look closely at a new phillips screw, and a new driver tip, you will see that the mating surfaces are vertical in the plane that provides rotational force.  Worn bits aren't vertical anymore and wear the screws mating surfaces into a ramp as well.  When either the screw head or the driver tip develop a ramp where is should be vertical, cam out is virtually guaranteed, (without large insertion force pressures, that is).
Further, there is a very good reason why drivers come with numbers like #1, #2, #3, etc.  Using the wrong one to remove a screw will bugger the head AND increase wear the driver. 

For those of you #$%*ing about buggered screw heads, ask yourself if you'd rather helicoil the base castings instead of replacing screws.  Or, are you using a properly set torque driver on everything?
If you are using the torque-till-it-yields-and-back-off-1/8-turn method of installation, better stick to those crosspoint screws and develop a larger expletive vocabulary.  :)

Cheers,

Very informative.  Too bad it doesn't address the problem most of us deal with or provide a potential solution.  I would wager that very few, if any, of us use "power drivers" to tighten engine case screws so we are not in need of a built-in mechanism for protecting the cases.  What we do need is something the will help reduce, when the time comes to remove said case cover screws, the number of them that strip due to insufficient rotational force to break the hold that time, heat, and inevitable minor corrosion have caused.
Use your cross-points if you like.  They're antiquated and only useful if you prefer form over function.

 ???
Apparently, you missed the points about using the proper un-worn screwdriver matched to the screw type?
...And the point that they are designed to cam out if abused, rather than damage casework?  This is a safety mechanism that can work to your advantage.
An impact driver will remove screws already damaged by ignorant attackers.  And, here's a solution for you, DON"T REUSE THOSE DAMAGED SCREWS!!!

Did you also miss the point that you can provide far more torque during installation with the allen head type?  And yes, I've gotten bikes with allen heads already "upgraded" and many of the threads in the cases were stripped from over-torque.

Use your allens if you like.  But, also invest in a helicoil kit, or a torque driver, too.  If you can't manage phillips or other cross point screws (still being used prominently on modern equipment) using allen heads it not going to cure all your "mechanical understanding woes".  Cross points have been used by successful mechanics since the 1930's.  Why is it you are not able to master them?

BTW, I have two S.S. allen screw kits ready to use on a CB550.  But, I know to use the proper driver for them and how much torque to put on them, just like the cross points.  I also know, if any unskilled attacks are made on the bike in the future, stripped cases are likely.

Finally, if you paid any attention to posts, you would know that I'm a form FOLLOWS function guy.   I'm more interested in how it works rather that how it looks.  Cross points work for those that understand them.  Perhaps allens are just easier for you to "understand"?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Cvillechopper

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Re: I am considering a complete set of engine bolts and screws. ??
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2008, 12:39:29 PM »
i agree w/ you guys on the allens... i really hate stripping screw heads or simply just having to put all my force at a screw to keep the driver in the slot instead of being able to use all that force toward the twisting of the screw. 

Then learn not to bugger your screw heads with worn out and ill fitting drivers.  ;)

The phillips screw head was originally designed to cam-out (instead of break-off), in manufacturing procedures with unskilled laborers who over-torqued on installation with power drivers.  It was far less costly to replace the screw, than drill out or restore threads in the host device.

If you look closely at a new phillips screw, and a new driver tip, you will see that the mating surfaces are vertical in the plane that provides rotational force.  Worn bits aren't vertical anymore and wear the screws mating surfaces into a ramp as well.  When either the screw head or the driver tip develop a ramp where is should be vertical, cam out is virtually guaranteed, (without large insertion force pressures, that is).
Further, there is a very good reason why drivers come with numbers like #1, #2, #3, etc.  Using the wrong one to remove a screw will bugger the head AND increase wear the driver. 

For those of you #$%*ing about buggered screw heads, ask yourself if you'd rather helicoil the base castings instead of replacing screws.  Or, are you using a properly set torque driver on everything?
If you are using the torque-till-it-yields-and-back-off-1/8-turn method of installation, better stick to those crosspoint screws and develop a larger expletive vocabulary.  :)

Cheers,

Very informative.  Too bad it doesn't address the problem most of us deal with or provide a potential solution.  I would wager that very few, if any, of us use "power drivers" to tighten engine case screws so we are not in need of a built-in mechanism for protecting the cases.  What we do need is something the will help reduce, when the time comes to remove said case cover screws, the number of them that strip due to insufficient rotational force to break the hold that time, heat, and inevitable minor corrosion have caused.
Use your cross-points if you like.  They're antiquated and only useful if you prefer form over function.

 ???
Apparently, you missed the points about using the proper un-worn screwdriver matched to the screw type?
...And the point that they are designed to cam out if abused, rather than damage casework?  This is a safety mechanism that can work to your advantage.
An impact driver will remove screws already damaged by ignorant attackers.  And, here's a solution for you, DON"T REUSE THOSE DAMAGED SCREWS!!!

Did you also miss the point that you can provide far more torque during installation with the allen head type?  And yes, I've gotten bikes with allen heads already "upgraded" and many of the threads in the cases were stripped from over-torque.

Use your allens if you like.  But, also invest in a helicoil kit, or a torque driver, too.  If you can't manage phillips or other cross point screws (still being used prominently on modern equipment) using allen heads it not going to cure all your "mechanical understanding woes".  Cross points have been used by successful mechanics since the 1930's.  Why is it you are not able to master them?

BTW, I have two S.S. allen screw kits ready to use on a CB550.  But, I know to use the proper driver for them and how much torque to put on them, just like the cross points.  I also know, if any unskilled attacks are made on the bike in the future, stripped cases are likely.

Finally, if you paid any attention to posts, you would know that I'm a form FOLLOWS function guy.   I'm more interested in how it works rather that how it looks.  Cross points work for those that understand them.  Perhaps allens are just easier for you to "understand"?


TT, I respect that you have a great deal of knowledge about these old machines.  You have provided very detailed information to those that ask.  I do, however, have a problem with your all-encompassing assumption that everyone (or at least certain persons) on this forum are incompetent.  Your assumptions lead you to make insulting statements (intended or not) like the one above.  Furthermore, your "holier than thou" attitude wears on me as it does on others.

Back to the point...  Cross points, even in a perfect world having been torqued exactly, will be more difficult to remove after years of use than a more modern design screw such as a torx or allen head.  This usually requires that they be replaced (see, I do understand).  I usually try not to use parts that have a high likelyhood of needing to be replaced if a hardier, equally suitable alternative is available.  It has nothing to do with lack of mechanical understanding.  It is about using the part that provides the longest life and least waste and/or frustration.

You admitted to using them yourself but attack others that plan to do so.  I just don't understand where the hostility originates.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.  Aristotle

Offline nickjtc

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Re: I am considering a complete set of engine bolts and screws. ??
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2008, 01:02:35 PM »
Now now chaps. Let's be friends. You both have very valid arguments. A concours-type restorer wouldn't think of using allen heads because they weren't original on the bike when new. But allens do make the job easier, if torqued correctly. An impact driver is a very inexpensive addition to the tool box and in my experience can shift all but the most stubborn cross heads.

Alternatively there is the tip I read in a recent classic bike mag, for removing stubborn domed cross heads: tap around the head of the screw, at an angle, with an appropriately sized drift and it will shock the threads away from each other, rather than in to each other using an inpact driver.

This outfit seems to appear in the British classic bike press quite frequently:

http://www.inoxgrp.co.uk/homepage.htm
« Last Edit: March 14, 2008, 03:39:31 PM by nickjtc »
Nick J. Member #3247

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Offline Hope

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Re: I am considering a complete set of engine bolts and screws. ??
« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2008, 02:11:58 PM »
I recommend a good set of used rusty bolts.



Offline techy5025

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Re: I am considering a complete set of engine bolts and screws. ??
« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2008, 02:19:43 PM »
I would argue that it is easier to torque an allen head screw to the correct value as opposed to a phillips head. Do any modern motorcycle engines use phillips heads?

I dread removing the allen's from my K0. They had never been touched. Maybe I should warm up the drill and the impact tool!

Jim
........
1969 750 K0 (Reborn)
1969 Sandcast 750 K0 (Reborn)
2003 CBR600F4I
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: I am considering a complete set of engine bolts and screws. ??
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2008, 02:44:08 PM »
CC,
The pot calls the kettle black?  You mean you didn't intend:
Quote
Use your cross-points if you like.  They're antiquated and only useful if you prefer form over function.
to be an insult?  Certainly read like a "holier than thou" comment you so abhor.

More to the point:
I have no problem with anyone who can use materials in the proper way.  Certainly allens can be employed in the correct manner.  However, we also have quite a few new or improperly trained home mechanics viewing this site.  These persons do not yet have the skill level to understand proper torque application.  Most things are in the "tight as you can possibly get it" category.  Screwdrivers have a torque lever of about 1/2 inch.  Allen wrenches have a torque arm of 4 or more inches and with this you can easily exceed the proper torque for a screw AND it's threads in soft aluminum.
Newbies making their foray into building their first cafe, for example, see "trick" things on other bikes and then apply them to their project.  The blanket replace-all-cross-points-with-allens recommendation, I feel, is a bit irresponsible. 

You are advocating "upgrading to a hardier screw" but NOT advocating upgrading the screw threads, as well.  The screw is only half the fastening system.  OK, you've had difficulty removing cross points installed by previous mechanics, and you curse them.  I have too.  But, even difficult to remove cross points are easier to deal with than replacing threads in engine cases.   Yes the allen screw came out easily, AND it's still good!  But, the case is F'd.  Do you think a newbie would prefer to wrestle with a screw or learn to helicoil (or replace their engine cases)?

I'm just trying to help save as many of these nice old machines as I can.  When that's no longer a goal of this forum, then it's time to move on and lament it's loss.  I don't have stock in ANY machine screw company.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Cvillechopper

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Re: I am considering a complete set of engine bolts and screws. ??
« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2008, 02:53:56 PM »
CC,
The pot calls the kettle black?  You mean you didn't intend:
Quote
Use your cross-points if you like.  They're antiquated and only useful if you prefer form over function.
to be an insult?  Certainly read like a "holier than thou" comment you so abhor.

More to the point:
I have no problem with anyone who can use materials in the proper way.  Certainly allens can be employed in the correct manner.  However, we also have quite a few new or improperly trained home mechanics viewing this site.  These persons do not yet have the skill level to understand proper torque application.  Most things are in the "tight as you can possibly get it" category.  Screwdrivers have a torque lever of about 1/2 inch.  Allen wrenches have a torque arm of 4 or more inches and with this you can easily exceed the proper torque for a screw AND it's threads in soft aluminum.
Newbies making their foray into building their first cafe, for example, see "trick" things on other bikes and then apply them to their project.  The blanket replace-all-cross-points-with-allens recommendation, I feel, is a bit irresponsible. 

You are advocating "upgrading to a hardier screw" but NOT advocating upgrading the screw threads, as well.  The screw is only half the fastening system.  OK, you've had difficulty removing cross points installed by previous mechanics, and you curse them.  I have too.  But, even difficult to remove cross points are easier to deal with than replacing threads in engine cases.   Yes the allen screw came out easily, AND it's still good!  But, the case is F'd.  Do you think a newbie would prefer to wrestle with a screw or learn to helicoil (or replace their engine cases)?

I'm just trying to help save as many of these nice old machines as I can.  When that's no longer a goal of this forum, then it's time to move on and lament it's loss.  I don't have stock in ANY machine screw company.



I'll apologize for returning the insulting nature of the discussion.  It was in poor form and not my standard approach. 
I would agree with much of what you've said in the above post.  There are many unexperienced people viewing the site.  Understanding that, would it not be better to offer your advice and warnings about over torquing than to imply that others simply don't know how to use cross points?  I think it would have been more easily accepted by everyone.  Just my opinion.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.  Aristotle

Offline DammitDan

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Re: I am considering a complete set of engine bolts and screws. ??
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2008, 02:57:28 PM »
Hey I just wanted allen screws on the carbs because it's near impossible to get a phillips driver in there to drop the bowls  :D
CB750K4