Author Topic: Aluminum valve spring retainers  (Read 6681 times)

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Andoo

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Aluminum valve spring retainers
« on: March 18, 2008, 05:39:34 PM »
Are there any detrimental side effects of using aluminum valve spring retainers?
They have the fancy Titanium one and the good old stockers.

What are the advantage/ disadvantages of the aluminum ones?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2008, 08:00:18 AM by Eightthirtysixcc »

Offline Steve F

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Re: Aluminum valve spring retainers
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2008, 06:04:32 PM »
Aluminum? On the + side--- nice and light  on the down side---hard to find the little pieces in the engine with a magnet.

Offline sparty

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Re: Aluminum valve spring retainers
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2008, 06:05:32 PM »
I think that they would be weak, prone to distortion, and need to be replaced often.  They may work on a bike that races a short circut and then has the top end rebuilt after each race.  I wouldn't trust them knowing how easily you could bend a valve at high RPMs.  Get some KPMI Ti retainers and no worries.

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Andoo

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Re: Aluminum valve spring retainers
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2008, 06:13:17 PM »
Aluminum? On the + side--- nice and light  on the down side---hard to find the little pieces in the engine with a magnet.

What is the advantage of being lighter? Does it effect the performance of the spring?

I can’t see how.

Just curious as I have seen a few old "built" engiens with these.

Offline sparty

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Re: Aluminum valve spring retainers
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2008, 06:23:37 PM »
Aluminum? On the + side--- nice and light  on the down side---hard to find the little pieces in the engine with a magnet.

What is the advantage of being lighter? Does it effect the performance of the spring?

I can’t see how.

Just curious as I have seen a few old "built" engiens with these.

Just because old "built" engines used them doesn't mean that they are any good.  Like my buddy Mike Rieck says, "Old crap is still old crap!"  They most likely used the aluminum retainers because the Ti ones were not around at the time.  Maybe Mike knows a little more.

Sparty
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Re: Aluminum valve spring retainers
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2008, 06:25:14 PM »
Aluminum? On the + side--- nice and light  on the down side---hard to find the little pieces in the engine with a magnet.

What is the advantage of being lighter? Does it effect the performance of the spring?

I can’t see how.

Just curious as I have seen a few old "built" engiens with these.

Just because old "built" engines used them doesn't mean that they are any good.  Like my buddy Mike Rieck says, "Old crap is still old crap!"  They most likely used the aluminum retainers because the Ti ones were not around at the time.  Maybe Mike knows a little more.

Sparty

Yea I figured they are no good, just wondering why some people thought they were.

Offline kayaker43

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Re: Aluminium valve spring retainers
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2008, 07:33:13 PM »
Aluminum is lighter than titanium. I used aluminum retainers for 4 seasons in a roadrace bike, I think Yoshimura sold them. They were anodized black, and showed no wear. I can't see any problem with them if made from 7075 and not some cheesy alloy?

Its a thick part not prone to flex so fatigue shouldn't be a problem? I can't think of a better material for that job? Titanium is very flexy and makes a good spring material.

Offline MRieck

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Re: Aluminium valve spring retainers
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2008, 07:50:41 PM »
R/D were the last folks I knew of that made aluminum retainers for the CB750. I'm not to fond of their stuff especially the springs. The Yosh pieces were OK and I have used them in the past. I also used the RC pieces which I think were made by Manley. The thing about aluminum is its finite life when cycled. The APE or Kibblewhite Ti pieces are stronger. Funny how Yosh now makes their top end retainers out of steel (they cost a fortune too). As a side note many new OEM retainers are aluminum (hard anodized) but stock spring seat pressure isn't that much
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Offline 754

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Re: Aluminium valve spring retainers
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2008, 10:14:05 PM »
I have an NOS set of springs with aluminum collars and locks, unanodized.. they may be Webco or?..they have an instruction sheet. will try to dig them out.

Hard anodize would make a big difference.. a bit like hardening.

All the same if I ran them, I would like to inspect them after not too long an interval..no high hour use..
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Offline kayaker43

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Re: Aluminium valve spring retainers
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2008, 06:36:24 AM »
Anodizing is just a surface thing, it doesn't harden the base material, just puts a hard coating on the surface. The two wear points would be where the spring rubs around the perimeter and mostly where the collars are located.

I wouldn't think bare aluminum would last long, but hard anodizing can be harder than steel. If they are silver it must be clear anodized, they would never leave them bare. Regular anodizing is always clear and then dyed to get a color. Hard anodizing is a bit different, thicker and harder, and I think its always a grayish color like you see on many aircraft parts,.. uses a different acid I think?

With fatigue life the number of cycles depends entirely on the deflection. below a certain deflection, its essentially infinite, but its a sharp curve. as the deflection goes up the number of cycles drops fast.

I just don't see this stout shape having deflection problems. It never sees any loads above the spring pressure unless the springs coil bind. I think the biggest concern would be wear in the valve collar area but I haven't seen any of that at all.

Seems like the best material for this job if anodized and especially hard anodized? The only thing better would be metal matrix composite (MMC), its an exotic aluminum that's way stiffer and used in F1 pistons.
 

Offline MRieck

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Re: Aluminium valve spring retainers
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2008, 07:11:18 AM »
Anodizing is just a surface thing, it doesn't harden the base material, just puts a hard coating on the surface. The two wear points would be where the spring rubs around the perimeter and mostly where the collars are located.

I wouldn't think bare aluminum would last long, but hard anodizing can be harder than steel. If they are silver it must be clear anodized, they would never leave them bare. Regular anodizing is always clear and then dyed to get a color. Hard anodizing is a bit different, thicker and harder, and I think its always a grayish color like you see on many aircraft parts,.. uses a different acid I think?

With fatigue life the number of cycles depends entirely on the deflection. below a certain deflection, its essentially infinite, but its a sharp curve. as the deflection goes up the number of cycles drops fast.

I just don't see this stout shape having deflection problems. It never sees any loads above the spring pressure unless the springs coil bind. I think the biggest concern would be wear in the valve collar area but I haven't seen any of that at all.

Seems like the best material for this job if anodized and especially hard anodized? The only thing better would be metal matrix composite (MMC), its an exotic aluminum that's way stiffer and used in F1 pistons.
 
It really depends on the spring pressure. It also depends on the design of the retainer too. If you can make the aluminum retainer big enough and not sacrifice retainer to guide clearance they'll generally be OK IMO. Early Ninja 900/1000's, Eliminators retainers weren't very stout to begin with. R/D made their retainers out of chrome moly because the cross section was so thin in order to get decent retainer to guide clearance. I have used the Kibblewhite spring kit (with Ti retainers ) on these engines but had to take .030 off the bottom of the retainer to use any type of performance cam with the OEM guides. Some 2 valve engines run a lot of pressure especially when racing. Some Harley "street" cams recommend something like 250lbs to 300lbs on the seat....sometimes more. The aluminum works OK for long periods on 4 valve stuff and the hard anodized surface helps prevent egging of the shim hole (in general). Once again it depends on the spring pressure and whether the engine is NA or forced induction. I believe NASCAR guys are using steel retainers and I mentioned the drilled Yosh ones for the new K GSXR's. The Yosh set is something like 1,300.00 for a set of 16. I have also used a set of Ti nitrided Ti retainers that came from an Erion Racing bike. I guess the main prpose of the nitriding was to once again reduce wear in the shim hole.
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Offline kayaker43

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Re: Aluminium valve spring retainers
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2008, 07:30:18 AM »
Boy I love a good logical answer instead of "aluminum sucks" like you would get on other forums. I love this place!!

A agree on all points, I'm just picturing a typical thick section non shim type retainer in my head and can't see a problem with it. The worst case would be a big diameter thin section as far as flexing and fatigue.

I guess it just depends on the size and shape which materials are best, but aluminum can be the best choice in some cases.

I love obsessing about details,... lets talk about spoke nipples next.

Andoo

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Re: Aluminium valve spring retainers
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2008, 07:59:29 AM »
But what is the actual benefit? Does aluminum allow the vales to return quicker?  The difference in weight to stock retainers is so slim. Why would people use it if there is a higher potential for malfunction.

Offline kayaker43

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Re: Aluminum valve spring retainers
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2008, 08:06:21 AM »
The advantage is always weight and a little makes a big difference. Aluminum is one third the weight of steel for a given volume and titanium is half. I even used aluminum nuts on my adjuster screws for the same reason! Less weight means higher revs before valve float or the ability to use lighter springs. spring retainers are just an easy and comparitively cheap place to save weight.

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Re: Aluminum valve spring retainers
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2008, 09:00:59 AM »
The advantage is always weight and a little makes a big difference. Aluminum is one third the weight of steel for a given volume and titanium is half. I even used aluminum nuts on my adjuster screws for the same reason! Less weight means higher revs before valve float or the ability to use lighter springs. spring retainers are just an easy and comparitively cheap place to save weight.
That's Gospel. You should see the difference between the Kibblewhite CB750 5mm conversion pieces and OEM. The retainers is much smaller and Ti and the intake/exhaust valves much lighter. The intake valve is 34mm too.
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Aluminum valve spring retainers
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2008, 01:32:19 PM »
Wow Mike, they sound like the things to have if you want a good motor ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

Sam. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;) ;) ;)
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Re: Aluminum valve spring retainers
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2008, 01:40:07 PM »
Wow Mike, they sound like the things to have if you want a good motor ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

Sam. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;) ;) ;)
.... as long as you know how to get them. ;) ;D
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Re: Aluminum valve spring retainers
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2008, 01:50:12 PM »
Wow Mike, they sound like the things to have if you want a good motor ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

Sam. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;) ;) ;)
.... as long as you know how to get them. ;) ;D

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Re: Aluminum valve spring retainers
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2008, 03:23:18 PM »
Aluminum retainers fatigue rapidly and can result in keeper "pull through" which allows the valve into the motor.

Altho we don't advertise aluminum retainers, we make them for some of the NHRA pro stock racers who need everything the lightest possible. They only run thewm for one weekend and then replace them.

We did some for Karen Stoffer when they were doing their own motors, and we anodized them pink.

Jay

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Re: Aluminum valve spring retainers
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2008, 03:27:41 PM »


We did some for Karen Stoffer when they were doing their own motors, and we anodized them pink.

Jay

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D  pink to make the boys wink  :D :D :D :D :D

Sam. ;)
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Re: Aluminum valve spring retainers
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2008, 06:30:18 PM »
I cant find any info on the set I got.

The keepers are 8mm long, stock is 6mm. This spring set had top and bottom collars in aluminum..


How much do Ti ones cost, maybe I should just make a few sets..
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Aluminum valve spring retainers
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2008, 07:05:11 PM »
I cant find any info on the set I got.

The keepers are 8mm long, stock is 6mm. This spring set had top and bottom collars in aluminum..


How much do Ti ones cost, maybe I should just make a few sets..
I think the last set I got from APE was about 160.00 or 170.00 + shipping. that was 6 weeks ago or so. Kibblewhite's are about 190.00 to 200.00. Ti prices change everyday and they ain't going down. ;)
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Aluminum valve spring retainers
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2008, 07:13:58 PM »
Think I'll be sticking with me plastic ones then ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Re: Aluminum valve spring retainers
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2008, 07:16:26 PM »
I am a huge fan of Ti exotica,but in defence of bauxite,I have RC alum. retainers ,with stainless valves and Manley lash caps,that have provided me with many thousands of miles service with no complaints.
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Re: Aluminum valve spring retainers
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2008, 07:20:36 PM »
Are you talking,
 retainers(valve locks)
 collars and locks,
 or, collars, locks, & springs... for that price?
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
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Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way