Author Topic: Ultimate motor  (Read 33459 times)

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Offline lordmoonpie

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Re: Ultimate motor
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2008, 07:03:48 AM »
Quote
for those of us un-enlightened (myself), what is the Hy-Vo?

The hy-vo type chain uses rivetted plates to make the chain instead of traditional plate and rollers. On a conventional chain the sharper sprocket teeth engage with the spaces between the rollers, the hy-vo chain engages on the inner edges of the plates on fatter and less sharp sprocket teeth. The big advantage of the hy-co chain is that it's much stronger in comparison to a standard chain for the same size...
1994 Ducati 888 SP5
1951 Ducati 50cc Cucciolo
1981 Yamaha XV750 SE

Offline andy750

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Re: Ultimate motor
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2008, 07:08:13 AM »
Is there a downside to using the hy-vo chain?

Great info BTW!!

Thanks
Andy
Current bikes
1. CB750K4: Long distance bike, 17 countries and counting...2001 - Trans-USA-Mexico, 2003 - European Tour, 2004 - SOHC Easy Rider Trip , 2008 - Adirondack Tour 2-up , 2013 - Tail of the Dragon Tour , 2017: 836 kit install and bottom end rebuild. And rebirth: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173213.msg2029836.html#msg2029836
2. CB750/810cc K2  - road racer with JMR worked head 71 hp
3. Yamaha Tenere T700 2022

Where did you go on your bike today? - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=45183.2350

Offline MRieck

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Re: Ultimate motor
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2008, 07:13:56 AM »
Is there a downside to using the hy-vo chain?

Great info BTW!!

Thanks
Andy
It's heavy and not as efficent as a roller chain.
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline MRieck

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Re: Ultimate motor
« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2008, 07:20:24 AM »
That's exactly it Terry - I could have gone the CB750A route to get hy-vo primary but thought I'd go the whole way and get a hy-vo camchain as well so I can use all that horsepower and not worry about the chain breaking.

Of course this is where the can of worms gets opened....clearances, chain guides, cam sprocket...

It's gone together at least  ;D


Do I see Redline assembly lube?
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline bwaller

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Re: Ultimate motor
« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2008, 07:33:57 AM »
Can see a few other goodies as well, and what might be a 520 final drive sprocket.

You're a good man lordmoonpie!

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Ultimate motor
« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2008, 04:01:39 AM »
That is just magnificent Lord Moony! Rex Wolfendon here in Oz builds the most successful CB750 based "Post Classic Racers" in this country, with capacities punched out to as much as 1200CC, and 140+ reliable BHP at the back wheel.

He uses the DOHC cranks with Hi-Vo chains for both cam and primary drive, and I've never heard of one breaking, and these things are not just hotted up street bikes like ours, but full blown racers running at max revs every outing. I'll bet that engine of yours is gonna be as close as dammit to bullet proof, well done! Cheers, Terry. ;D   
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

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Offline lordmoonpie

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Re: Ultimate motor
« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2008, 05:00:50 AM »
Jeez you guys are sharp eyed!  :D

Not redline assembly lube but equivalent I guess - megacycle's own moly lube for initial startup. Yup that's a 520 drive sprocket - do you lot not miss anything?! Well maybe the lightened rocker arms are on display but that's probably too easy yes?  ;D

Yeah 've heard of Rex Wolfendon of course, he features regularly in the back pages of Classic Racer magazine where there's a permanent feature on classic racing down under. Bit of a character by all accounts isn't he?

Since I first posted questions about what I was doing I've had a few guys email me from Oz mainly about building a DOHC crank into an SOHC for sidecar racing. I imagine that the hy-vo will become useful for 1200cc engines and racing stress then! Here's a little pic of the primary too, just to keep the drool going onto that Antipodean keyboard  ;D

All you sharp eyes out there - see what you can see in this shot!!
1994 Ducati 888 SP5
1951 Ducati 50cc Cucciolo
1981 Yamaha XV750 SE

Offline 754

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Re: Ultimate motor
« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2008, 07:16:35 AM »
OOHH,
 nice gearbox, shift drum, lightened crank &  custom made rods!

 Do those cranks fit right in, or close?
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Ultimate motor
« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2008, 07:35:00 AM »
Who did your crank and put those Carrillos (I'm guessing from the bolts) on?

Yeah, please tell us more about the crank fitment and tranny.
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline lordmoonpie

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Re: Ultimate motor
« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2008, 12:49:17 PM »
The DOHC crank drops straight in no problem. I've had this machined though so it'll take a CB350 K4 rotor on the left hand end and an ignition rotor on the right hand end. That will hopefully allow me to have a self generating ignition some day soon (theory again  :D). The CB350 K4 stator then sits in a replica magnesium generator cover which cuts engine width down by a good few inches as well.

The crank is a lightened balanced standard DOHC crank - done by Basset Down Engineering in the UK who have many years of dynamic balancing experience. The conversion work for the rotors was done by a chap called Pete Rhodes again in the UK and possibly not unfamiliar in CR750 circles. The crank just drops in with standard bearing shells.

The hy-vo primary could be made from some other models' chains - both GL1000 or even a yamaha I believe but this one is custom made by Morris in the US sourced from M3.

Gearbox is close ratio Nova - not the same ratios as Daytona though as they're not so useful for standard racing. Daytona demands something a little bit special right?! This is the third CR Nova gearbox I've run in different racers and I can recommend them to anyone - superb engineers and awesome transmissions. I've just put a 6-speed box and dry clutch from them on my main racer the CB450 Bomber.

Primary drive is a cut and shut job with a GL1000 - drill out the rivets on both the CB750 SOHC and the GL1000 drive sprocket and re-assemble with the GL1000 outer ring. You can re-rivet the whole plot together but as it doesn't receive stress in that plane it's OK to tap and thread the alloy central boss and countersink the side plates to fit 16mm countersunk bolts, locktited in of course. Before doing that, I added some heavy duty cush drive rubbers to the internals - swap out the original softer rubbers for some very hard plastic equivalents, mine came from M3. They were a beggar to fit due to the lack of give in them so it'll be interesting so see what sort of cushioning effect they actually leave me with.

Underneath the primary chain what you can't see is the DOHC chain tensioner grafted onto a plate welded into the lower case to tension the primary chain. This uses the same DOHC sprung tensioner arm fed by oil pressure off the oil pump below it. That had to have a side arm welded on to allow the feed from pump to tensioner. The top crank case is just drilled to bolt in the top blade of the DOHC tensioner.

The shift drum, at this stage in the picture anyway, was an original CB750. It got changed for the custom mirror drum just before I closed the cases. The rods are indeed custom - to maintain the same squish pattern means new rods because there is a 1mm difference in stroke and 1.5mm difference in rod length between the SOHC and DOHC cranks. I worked on the principle that 1mm stroke difference is 0.5mm at top and bottom of the crank revolution so the crank big end journals must be 0.5mm further away from the centre on an SOHC crank. To cut a very long story quite long ( :)) that means the new rods had to be 1.5 + 0.5mm longer than stock SOHC. Enter the experts of British conrod design in the shape of "Arrow Precision engineering", who make rods for many top UK classic Honda racers and they delivered a set of what I can only describe as mechanical porn  ;D All I did was bolt the suckers in place.

The only other minor bit is the tensioner spring was a race kit part now obsolete so I preloaded the tensioner standard spring with a washer. It was tough getting the cases to join initially as the tensioner force exerted on the very strong hy-vo primary would lift the layshaft bearing out of its seat by half a millimetre but I got around that by holding the tensioner back with a piece of flat steel through the oil pump opening until the cases were joined and then everything sits nicely in tension....at least at standstill.

And that's it for the cases....picture shows original GL1000 primary drive on left and the hybrid CB750/GL1000 finished one on the right for comparison of shafts etc.

1994 Ducati 888 SP5
1951 Ducati 50cc Cucciolo
1981 Yamaha XV750 SE

Offline lordmoonpie

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Re: Ultimate motor
« Reply #35 on: March 31, 2008, 12:52:21 PM »
Heyyy! I've just worked out what you old timers are doing....you're making me write the whole darn thing up straight to the forum! DOH! ???
1994 Ducati 888 SP5
1951 Ducati 50cc Cucciolo
1981 Yamaha XV750 SE

Offline andy750

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Re: Ultimate motor
« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2008, 01:05:11 PM »
Yes but its a great read! Keep it coming!!

Amazing stuff...all the while Im thinking...will it run?!

cheers
Andy
Current bikes
1. CB750K4: Long distance bike, 17 countries and counting...2001 - Trans-USA-Mexico, 2003 - European Tour, 2004 - SOHC Easy Rider Trip , 2008 - Adirondack Tour 2-up , 2013 - Tail of the Dragon Tour , 2017: 836 kit install and bottom end rebuild. And rebirth: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173213.msg2029836.html#msg2029836
2. CB750/810cc K2  - road racer with JMR worked head 71 hp
3. Yamaha Tenere T700 2022

Where did you go on your bike today? - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=45183.2350

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Ultimate motor
« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2008, 03:10:19 PM »
That is beautiful mate, "mechanical porn" is an apt description indeed, I'm looking forward to seeing the finished bike! (preferably with sound...........) Keep up the good work! ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline MRieck

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Re: Ultimate motor
« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2008, 05:51:06 PM »
 I have wondered about those M3 primary pieces and considered using them in my engine. They sound like a tight fit.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Ultimate motor
« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2008, 05:58:04 PM »
Not redline assembly lube but equivalent I guess - megacycle's own moly lube for initial startup.

Question:
Have you used moly lube before with a wet clutch and not had it slip?

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Ultimate motor
« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2008, 08:14:20 PM »
Not redline assembly lube but equivalent I guess - megacycle's own moly lube for initial startup.

Question:
Have you used moly lube before with a wet clutch and not had it slip?

Cheers,

I wouldn't worry about it Lloyd, I don't know how much "Moly" is actually contained in Megacycles' assembly lube, but considering that they supply it with all the cams they make specifically for wet clutch bikes like ours, I'm guessing it's not much.

I used it when I built my 836cc engine with one of their 125/75 cams, with no clutch issues at all. Cheers, Terry. ;D 
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Ultimate motor
« Reply #41 on: March 31, 2008, 09:35:24 PM »
Same here with no problems ;)
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Offline lordmoonpie

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Re: Ultimate motor
« Reply #42 on: April 01, 2008, 05:17:39 AM »
Well there's another thing to add to the adventure on startup eh  ;D

I have a mate who runs his new motors in on a strict diet of no build lube and two minutes revving using diesel instead of engine oil. He swears by it but it sounds like too fine a line for me to try.

Anyway, here's a couple of supplementary photos today, one showing the oil pump with the take off for the tensioner and the other, well, dedicated to MRieck shall we say  ;D  ;D  ;D

1994 Ducati 888 SP5
1951 Ducati 50cc Cucciolo
1981 Yamaha XV750 SE

Offline lordmoonpie

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Re: Ultimate motor
« Reply #43 on: April 01, 2008, 05:18:38 AM »
and the oil pump...
1994 Ducati 888 SP5
1951 Ducati 50cc Cucciolo
1981 Yamaha XV750 SE

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Ultimate motor
« Reply #44 on: April 02, 2008, 04:08:41 PM »
So is the oil pump mod to assist the primary chain tensioner Lord Moony, or the cam chain? Beautiful work, BTW! ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Ultimate motor
« Reply #45 on: April 02, 2008, 04:21:19 PM »
Post 5 paragraph 5, read the bloody thread you silly old fart ::) ::) ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Sam. :D ;)
C95 sprint bike.
CB95 hybrid race bike
CB95 race bike
CB92
RS 175. sprint/land speed bike
JMR Racing CB750A street ET drag bike

Offline MRieck

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Re: Ultimate motor
« Reply #46 on: April 03, 2008, 08:36:53 AM »
Well there's another thing to add to the adventure on startup eh  ;D

I have a mate who runs his new motors in on a strict diet of no build lube and two minutes revving using diesel instead of engine oil. He swears by it but it sounds like too fine a line for me to try.

Anyway, here's a couple of supplementary photos today, one showing the oil pump with the take off for the tensioner and the other, well, dedicated to MRieck shall we say  ;D  ;D  ;D


   Thanks for the pic. That's interesting guide work. That's the 5mm conversion right? I'll post a pic of how I worked my guides for that kit....just have to wait until I get home. ;)
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Offline lordmoonpie

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Re: Ultimate motor
« Reply #47 on: April 03, 2008, 10:35:15 AM »
Yes that's right - the 5mm top end kit, another collection of mechanical porn!  ;D
The guides a re 'nucleus' valve guides. I took the standard top end kit bronze guides, which I thought were perfectly reasonable looking, to the Cylinder Head Shop and they said they were next to useless for some reason. The nucleus guides apparently create more swirl effect to help the mixture along - remains to be seen.

The oil feed is for the primary tensioner yes. The conversion that Mark McGrew does also includes an oiler bolt to spray the tensioner chain off the same oil feed. We had a good look at this and didn't think it was really necessary given the splash going on in the cases - we'll see how wise that decision turns out to be!

Carying up the barrels, here's todays picture - 10 points to the first person to identify why the gudgeon (wrist) pin is black... ;D

1994 Ducati 888 SP5
1951 Ducati 50cc Cucciolo
1981 Yamaha XV750 SE

Offline sparty

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Re: Ultimate motor
« Reply #48 on: April 03, 2008, 11:15:42 AM »
Yes that's right - the 5mm top end kit, another collection of mechanical porn!  ;D
The guides a re 'nucleus' valve guides. I took the standard top end kit bronze guides, which I thought were perfectly reasonable looking, to the Cylinder Head Shop and they said they were next to useless for some reason. The nucleus guides apparently create more swirl effect to help the mixture along - remains to be seen.

The oil feed is for the primary tensioner yes. The conversion that Mark McGrew does also includes an oiler bolt to spray the tensioner chain off the same oil feed. We had a good look at this and didn't think it was really necessary given the splash going on in the cases - we'll see how wise that decision turns out to be!

Carying up the barrels, here's todays picture - 10 points to the first person to identify why the gudgeon (wrist) pin is black... ;D



I'll try to answer.  The wrist pin is coated like my piston skirts (see Avitar).  Mine were done by Swain Tech.  They also put a Ceramic coating on the domes. (see Avitar).

Sparty
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Offline lordmoonpie

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Re: Ultimate motor
« Reply #49 on: April 03, 2008, 12:13:51 PM »
Well it's not ceramic coating - what's on your piston skirts Sparty?
1994 Ducati 888 SP5
1951 Ducati 50cc Cucciolo
1981 Yamaha XV750 SE