Author Topic: '75 750 Carb Float Question and Labeled Unassembled Carb Picture.  (Read 1889 times)

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Offline Speedngheadphone

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I'm disassembling and cleaning out my carburetors (I don't think it would be called rebuilding since I'm not replacing anything, correct?). My Clymer Manual says "remove slow jet (check), main jet (check), need jet holder (not labeled in diagram, don't see it, can't remove it), float and float valve set.  My question is how to remove the float and valve set. maybe if I could get the float off I could figure out the valve set, but there is no screw to remove the float, only the pin/shaft that it pivots on.  I don't want to break anything.

Could anybody enlighten.

PS. I did try and search this...

and just for the hell of it, the second picture is where I found really old spider eggs on my carburetor.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2008, 09:30:38 PM by Speedngheadphone »

Offline Shenanigans

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Re: '75 750 Carb - How to/Do I need to remove float?
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2008, 03:27:05 AM »
The pin (in red) holds on the floats and has to be carefully pushed/pulled out allowing the floats to come off. This will let you get to the valve.

   This pretty much sums it up.   76' CB592 cafe. 69 750 project, 03 CBR954, 75 750 super sport.

Offline Speedngheadphone

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Re: '75 750 Carb - How to/Do I need to remove float?
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2008, 03:40:04 AM »
awesome thanks, I was doing that and got nervous about it, didn't think that was it.

Thanks again, drew on the picture and everything, superb.

tomswift

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Re: '75 750 Carb - How to/Do I need to remove float?
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2008, 03:49:43 AM »
the needle jet holder is the threaded piece with the main jet (one with big hole) at one end, and the needle jet at the other. since you have gone this far, you should come in from the throat of the carb, use a sharpened #2 pencil, and push the little "barrel" out of the throat that the needle goes into. on high mile bikes this barrel can show signs of wear (probably also seen on the needle) and should be replaced.

On some bikes the needle jet pushes up into the throat to come out...it appears you have an old Honda, with Keihin carbs...typical that the needle jet pushes out toward the float bowl

BTW...carb will run pretty lousy without this part... I have seen two bikes in the last six months that were disassembled then put together without the needle jet. I laugh every time I think of someone putting the last float bowl on their newly rebuilt carbs and seeing that tiny little piece left in the parts catcher and thinking "awww...that little piece probably doesn't matter"

Offline Speedngheadphone

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Re: '75 750 Carb - How to/Do I need to remove float?
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2008, 06:35:58 PM »
I was about to ask a question, but I labeled this picture instead, answered some of my questions in the process... So for anybody that needs it, everything isn't completely blown apart, but it's laid out...

Also couple small questions...you guys soak stuff in carb cleaner, can you get a "pour" bottle of carb cleaner? or do you just spray the can until you've got a nice jar full?  I guess either works. I didn't see a bottle of carb cleaner, only the spray can.  Maybe I needed to look harder.

Rejetting, can you explain this a bit, or point me to the thread/link that explains it.  I don't know exactly what piece it is that is changed, I'm guessing the needle jet holder (with the holes) or what?  Bit new to this, but I'll understand everything soon enough.

Thanks.

Offline bender01

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Re: '75 750 Carb - How to/Do I need to remove float?
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2008, 07:58:15 PM »
you can buy carb cleaner in a paint size can at the auto parts store.Those arent bad Id use straight simple green a tooth brush and wire to poke out the holes in the jets. after submerging in simple green for the morning wash completely with water. dry and reassemble.Oh and by the third time youll have done it right, and lots faster.
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So, the strategy is to lie to people you are asking for help?

I think I'll be busy going for a ride.

Good luck!
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tomswift

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Re: '75 750 Carb Float Question and Labeled Unassembled Carb Picture.
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2008, 09:28:53 AM »
Regarding your question about "rejetting"... to rejet is simply to change the precision porthole that allows so much gas to enter the carb flowstream in relation to a given vacuum in the carb throat. Vacuum comes when the piston pulls in air. Gas joins in through one of several passages including the choke, pilot (or idle) and primary (main).

Rejetting is done for one of 2-3 reasons. Bikes are built to run at approx sea level, outside air pressure about 14.5psi. Go up to Denver Colorado (elevation is about 5000ft above sea level - that is, you are waaaay up in the mountains) and when your piston pulls a certain amount of vacuum in the carb, less air passes through the carb because the air pressure outside is lower (about 13.5psi in Denver?...just a guess). Since the jet remained the same, now more gas jumps into the carb/flowstream in comparison to the amount of air. Thus, the flow into the engine is said to be "richer".  Thus a change to a smaller dia jet (smaller number) is needed if Denver is where you normally ride.

Bikes/cars with fuel injection don't worry about this stuff... the correction to proper fuel/air ratio is made automatically. Old style carbs were made to meter gas/air in fixed ratios... and in the '70s cars/bikes were asked to run as lean as possible to make the EPA happy. Thus, when a bike is not in perfect original condition where the carburation is concerned, it probably starts to run too lean for proper operation... and you feel it as hesitation, poor performance, hard starting, etc.

When you put that K&N air filter/filter pods on your bike you tend to push the air/fuel ratio a bit leaner. I have seen 2-3 bikes recently that would not run at all with the low restriction filters recently installed. Also, when you put the low restriction exhaust on it tends to reduce back pressure and allow air to flow more easily through the carb venturi... the higher flow speed at a given throttle opening means more air, less gas. Constant velocity carbs do a better job handling this, thus the later Hondas (Goldwing, etc) went to CV carbs instead of the mechanical linkage slides.

Best way to know where your carbs are in this air/fuel ratio thing is to pull 'em and look for yourself. Good plugs have a tan-to-brownish color, bad plugs are either too clean or too black with soot.  The bad news here is you could run properly at idle but too lean/rich at open (over 1/4 throttle) throttle OR VICE VERSA. I have a bike that regularly fouls plugs if left at idle too long, but take 'er out on the road and she runs great.

When checking idle vs open throttle ratio, one can let the bike idle for a few minutes or do what is called a "throttle chop" check.  Warm the bike up with a brief ride, let her sit for 3-4 min at idle, then turn off and check plugs. Lots of color pics on what plugs look like on the 'net, compare to know what you have. For the throttle chop test, I like to warm up the bike, stop and install brand new plugs, then immediately hop on and spin it up to say 4k rpm in about 2nd gear. Open the throttle at least 3/4, hold it till you near red line (if possible...watch those speed limits), then simultaneously hit the kill switch and pull in the clutch...in other words kill the engine quickly from mid-to-high-rpm running. Pull over, check the plugs... how do they look now? This test is a pain, but if the results are significantly different from the idle test you have a prob that needs sorting.

As for deciding which jet to use... jet numbers signify fractions of a millimeter. a #32 jet is 0.032mm in diameter. Most Hondas from the '70s will benefit from a slightly larger idle jet... so I might bump to a #35. Try to get the "Tim Allen Mindset" out of your head... bigger is not necessarily better. We are seeking optimum, not maximum... quality of air/fuel ratio not quantity.

Now...with all that said... here is the bigger picture... lots and lots of variables can affect how the bike runs. There is always the dirty air filter or the leaking inlet tube that can affect bike performance as well. Before spending time tweaking the carb, make CERTAIN that ignition system is in good shape, valves are adjusted, inlet tube O-rings are sealing, etc. 

In looking over this explanation of jetting I have omitted talk of the needle/needlejet. You can see how gas is metered out into the flow stream when the slide goes up...needle slims down, opening becomes bigger, more gas comes out. You can change the lower-to-mid throttle settings by moving the needle up and down inside the slide. when throttle is closed or wide open the needle hardly matters, but as you begin to screw it open it has an effect... and this in exactly where we use the throttle the most. Adjustment here is - lift needle higher and more gas joins the air earlier. Drop the needle lower and stifle gas flow during initial throttle opening. MOST bikes just need the needle in the middle clip setting... and now that I have said that maybe yours is the one that needs a change...but I doubt it.

Tired of typing now... good luck on all that.
TS99

Offline Johnie

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Re: '75 750 Carb Float Question and Labeled Unassembled Carb Picture.
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2008, 10:10:18 AM »
"GUNK" makes a nice carb cleaner in a gallon paint can.  Comes with a nice basket and handle to put the parts in and submerge them.  Makes for easy retrieval of the parts.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: '75 750 Carb Float Question and Labeled Unassembled Carb Picture.
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2008, 03:03:50 PM »
Excellent write up, with the exception off two or three small problems.

When you put that K&N air filter/filter pods on your bike you tend to push the air/fuel ratio a bit leaner. I have seen 2-3 bikes recently that would not run at all with the low restriction filters recently installed. Also, when you put the low restriction exhaust on it tends to reduce back pressure and allow air to flow more easily through the carb venturi... the higher flow speed at a given throttle opening means more air, less gas. Constant velocity carbs do a better job handling this, thus the later Hondas (Goldwing, etc) went to CV carbs instead of the mechanical linkage slides.
You have the right effect but the wrong causes. The volumetric efficiency of the engine is not changed with pods or exhaust changes, it draws the same volume of air it would with any air filter,  However, inlet restriction changes the carb throat vacuum that pulls fuel through the fuel metering orifices.  A deeper vacuum draws more fuel, less vacuum; less fuel.  This changes the fuel air ratio delivery.
Also a low restriction exhaust does not change flow through the carbs, the carbs are isolated from the exhaust by the 4 stroke cycle as the intake and exhaust valves aren't open at the same time.  What a low restriction exhaust does, is evacuate the cylinder better, and allow more oxygen to enter the chamber.  With more oxygen, more fuel is need to return to optimum fuel air ratio.  While the mechanism for adjusting the required change resides in the carb, it is not due to more air flow through the carb, but a change in the cylinder demand for optimum fuel ratio.

As for deciding which jet to use... jet numbers signify fractions of a millimeter. a #32 jet is 0.032mm in diameter. Most Hondas from the '70s will benefit from a slightly larger idle jet... so I might bump to a #35. Try to get the "Tim Allen Mindset" out of your head... bigger is not necessarily better. We are seeking optimum, not maximum... quality of air/fuel ratio not quantity.

I think you will find a decimal error in your jet specification.  A #100 jet is 1.00mm and #32 jet is 0.32mm.

I don't think these issues negate the underlying rational of your very good write up.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline eurban

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Re: '75 750 Carb Float Question and Labeled Unassembled Carb Picture.
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2008, 06:24:16 AM »

Also a low restriction exhaust does not change flow through the carbs, the carbs are isolated from the exhaust by the 4 stroke cycle as the intake and exhaust valves aren't open at the same time.  What a low restriction exhaust does, is evacuate the cylinder better, and allow more oxygen to enter the chamber.  With more oxygen, more fuel is need to return to optimum fuel air ratio.  While the mechanism for adjusting the required change resides in the carb, it is not due to more air flow through the carb, but a change in the cylinder demand for optimum fuel ratio.

Perhaps a bit OT here but if we are being technical . . .most "low restriction exhausts" (at least for our bikes) don't evacuate the cylinders better at all RPMs.  The 4-1s exhaust "suction wave" is only properly  hitting the combustion chamber during valve overlap (intake and exhaust valves open) at certain high RPMs where it is boosts power by helping to draw in the intake charge.  Power is increased. Larger main jets are typically required to take proper advantage of this.  At a certain lower RPM range it is a pressure wave that is hitting the chamber during overlap and power is reduced.  The intake charge can actually be pushed out through the carbs only to be sucked back in again effectively drawing in fuel again as well.  Now, particularly if you upped your main to take advantage of the high RPM suction effect, you will be overly rich in this lower exhaust pressure wave RPM range.  This is the typical power dip before the power bump tradeoff from a 4-1 exhaust and it is really not possible with our carbs to get the mix just right. 
« Last Edit: March 31, 2008, 06:57:01 AM by eurban »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: '75 750 Carb Float Question and Labeled Unassembled Carb Picture.
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2008, 09:16:44 AM »

Also a low restriction exhaust does not change flow through the carbs, the carbs are isolated from the exhaust by the 4 stroke cycle as the intake and exhaust valves aren't open at the same time.  What a low restriction exhaust does, is evacuate the cylinder better, and allow more oxygen to enter the chamber.  With more oxygen, more fuel is need to return to optimum fuel air ratio.  While the mechanism for adjusting the required change resides in the carb, it is not due to more air flow through the carb, but a change in the cylinder demand for optimum fuel ratio.

Perhaps a bit OT here but if we are being technical . . .most "low restriction exhausts" (at least for our bikes) don't evacuate the cylinders better at all RPMs.  The 4-1s exhaust "suction wave" is only properly  hitting the combustion chamber during valve overlap (intake and exhaust valves open) at certain high RPMs where it is boosts power by helping to draw in the intake charge.  Power is increased. Larger main jets are typically required to take proper advantage of this.  At a certain lower RPM range it is a pressure wave that is hitting the chamber during overlap and power is reduced.  The intake charge can actually be pushed out through the carbs only to be sucked back in again effectively drawing in fuel again as well.  Now, particularly if you upped your main to take advantage of the high RPM suction effect, you will be overly rich in this lower exhaust pressure wave RPM range.  This is the typical power dip before the power bump tradeoff from a 4-1 exhaust and it is really not possible with our carbs to get the mix just right. 

There is a difference between a low restriction exhaust and a "Tuned" exhaust you are describing.  Just because it's a 4 into 1 doesn't mean it is "tuned".  The Mac series is a prime example of an "un-tuned" 4 into 1.  What I was referring to, was inherent back pressure of any particular exhaust example be it 4 into 4, 4 into 2, or 4 into 1, and it's variance by manufacture.  Back pressure of any exhaust impedes the evacuation of the cylinder on the exhaust stroke.  This leaves some of the spent gases behind from the previous firing.  And, therefore, takes chamber room where a new oxygen rich charge ought to go.  Simply reducing the back pressure, allows for a more complete evacuation of spent gases and and more volume of oxygen to exist for the next power cycle.

The tuned pipe also relies on valve overlap in the 4-S engine.  The stock cam doesn't provide much off this, does it?  More overlap usually provides a very poor idle.  A good 4 into 1 can introduce a scavenge effect at certain RPMs.  However, at other RPMs the exhaust pulses from neighbor cylinders can actually impede cylinder evacuation, by giving a high pressure pulse just when you'd like a particular cylinder to be evacuated.  This can happen with a 4 into 2 system, as well, but not with a 4 into 4 system.
Trade-offs.

This is getting pretty far from a Float question, though.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.