Topic: Can this be salvaged???? Updated 4/10/08

[Patrick]

As for preventing flash rust after an acid treatment, one of my local radiator shops taught me a trick that I have used successfully several times. After you remove the acid, rinse out the tank with fresh water and then dump in a relatively strong mixture of laundry detergent and water. Laundry detergent is a base, like baking soda, so it neutralizes any residual acid. Unlike baking soda, though, laundry detergent is also a detergent, so it cleans as well as neutralizes. Fill the tank with laundry detergent and water. swish is around to make sure it gets everywhere, then fill the tank the rest of the way and let it sit for a while - long enough to neutralize any acid. Then rinse with fresh water and blow it out with compressed area.

I've never had to coat any of the tanks I treated this way and I've never had a recurrence of rust, even on the tanks I left dry and empty for weeks waiting to complete the project.

Leaving bare metal isn't an option for you, Hope, but this should help prep the inside of the tank real well for the liner.

Patrick

[Hope]

..did u ride the 550 any this weekend.  If so did it start easy for ya?

1st kick on Sunday started right up.  I've put 300 miles on it since we worked on it last Saturday.  When I parked it Sunday, I started working on that general cleaning you mentioned.... and flipped up the tank to find.... well... what I snapped a picture of.  I took the tank off, and put the orange tank on, finished my cleaning and went for another ride. 

I haven't had any more problems.  Very favorable cranking in warm weather.

[Hope]

Leaving bare metal isn't an option for you, Hope, but this should help prep the inside of the tank real well for the liner.

Patrick

This is the first bare tank that I ever tried to put on a bike, and will be the last. 

[TwoTired]

since Rad said that my Kreem coat in my orange tank was the source of all that white milky stuff we found in my carbs

I still don't buy that theory.  The Kreem liner would come off in flakes or even large sheets, but it wouldn't just dissolve in the gas. 

Actually Kreem does dissolve with some gas ...depends on the additives.

I can only believe this, Tim, if the Kreem was not properly cured (fairly common with the I-want-it-done-now, unskilled users of said product), or if the additives you speak of, were MEK.

All the acid treatments remove metal as well as rust.  If you are already getting rust holes, you will likely have more of them after an acid treatment.

Phosphoric acid is the best of the bunch as it leaves a conversion layer over the remaining internal steel, that impedes future rusting.

If the metal is already thin/with pin holes, Electrolysis is the least destructive of the methods.   However, if you have rust blocking other pin holes, you'll still have more leaks after this treatment.

If you have tank holes, a tank liner of some kind is highly recommended (required?), if you are not replacing all the thinned metal.

Unless you have an immersion tank where you can fully submerge the entire fuel tank.  You will have to patch all the existing holes in the fuel tank you wish to repair before any of the treatments.
If you are using heat to make these patches, beware that a tank that is zinc coated internally (prior treatment of phosphoric acid) will release poisonous fumes, quite harmful for mammals of all kinds to inhale (This most certainly includes humans).

Cheers,

[754]

The problem is , you never know if there is a large row of pits along the seam area..or just that one spot...

so if you could actually see what it looks like, you may not even bother trying to seal it.. depending on how it looks..

[Hope]

since Rad said that my Kreem coat in my orange tank was the source of all that white milky stuff we found in my carbs

I still don't buy that theory.  The Kreem liner would come off in flakes or even large sheets, but it wouldn't just dissolve in the gas. 

Actually Kreem does dissolve with some gas ...depends on the additives.

I can only believe this, Tim, if the Kreem was not properly cured (fairly common with the I-want-it-done-now, unskilled users of said product), or if the additives you speak of, were MEK.

Looks as though I started the great Kreem debate....  which we've already had here: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=27223.0

Please keep in mind that:
1.  The gold/white tank that is rusted is bare (no treatment)
2.  The orange tank is Kreemed
3.  There was no milky stuff in the bowls when I dropped them & there was no milky stuff in the bowls when the great "Lumbee" dropped the bowls
4.  The bike has been running great since the great "Lumbee" cleaned the slow jets
5.  Rad's theory that the Kreem was broken down has been disproved because we haven't found any milky stuff to date
6.  The only additive that I used as of late was Seafoam... and Jonesy checked out the MSDS and found that there isn't anything in Seafoam to break down the Kreem

Ya'll can debate the Kreem stuff all ya'll want.  My Kreem job in 2001 was not a hack job.  I really took my time with it & it turned out good.  I went over and beyond what the instructions said to do.  Hey - it's lasted 7 years so far with no problems...

However, I am not Kreeming the gold/white tank, I will be treating it with POR15 which I have already ordered.  First, we are welding the tank as the great "Lumbee" suggested.

[Gordon]

Ya'll can debate the Kreem stuff all ya'll want.  My Kreem job in 2001 was not a hack job.  I really took my time with it & it turned out good.  I went over and beyond what the instructions said to do.  Hey - it's lasted 7 years so far with no problems...

If you didn't want to discuss it, then why did you bring it back up?

[kghost]

Well guys you may debate Kreem all you like.

I am going with the results I have seen over the last 15 yrs.

I cannot count the tanks that have been Kreemed where the liner has failed.

In fact I have yet to see a Kreem liner with any age still be attached to the tank.

It doesn't really matter if its milky, big chunks or pea soup. If its delaminated from the tank it isn't doing its job now is it?

I cannot comment what specific chemical added these days does the Kreem in.

One would have to have a sample of all gas ever put in the tank...plus a degree in chemistry.

I do know that we're talking about a produce (Kreem) thats been around virtually unchanged for a long time.

I theorize that the gasoline produced today is different substantially than gas 30 yrs ago.

Ferox, many of the peroxides, alcohols, Ethylenediamine's,  a virtual witches brew is added to modern gasoline.

Anyone know of any tests of Kreem with modern additives?

[Hope]

Ya'll can debate the Kreem stuff all ya'll want.  My Kreem job in 2001 was not a hack job.  I really took my time with it & it turned out good.  I went over and beyond what the instructions said to do.  Hey - it's lasted 7 years so far with no problems...

If you didn't want to discuss it, then why did you bring it back up?

I was just stating some facts that might not have been taken into consideration while folks are weighing the pros & cons or whether the Kreem did or did not dissolve in the gas....  so far, nothing supports the statement that the Kreem dissolved in the gas...  It seems that the shop speculated that the Kreem dissolved in the gas, but the real problem was the slow jets...

I just wanted people to take that into account. 

[Ichiban 4]

since Rad said that my Kreem coat in my orange tank was the source of all that white milky stuff we found in my carbs

I still don't buy that theory.  The Kreem liner would come off in flakes or even large sheets, but it wouldn't just dissolve in the gas. 

Actually Kreem does dissolve with some gas ...depends on the additives.

I can only believe this, Tim, if the Kreem was not properly cured (fairly common with the I-want-it-done-now, unskilled users of said product), or if the additives you speak of, were MEK.

All the acid treatments remove metal as well as rust.  If you are already getting rust holes, you will likely have more of them after an acid treatment.

Phosphoric acid is the best of the bunch as it leaves a conversion layer over the remaining internal steel, that impedes future rusting.

If the metal is already thin/with pin holes, Electrolysis is the least destructive of the methods.   However, if you have rust blocking other pin holes, you'll still have more leaks after this treatment.

If you have tank holes, a tank liner of some kind is highly recommended (required?), if you are not replacing all the thinned metal.

Unless you have an immersion tank where you can fully submerge the entire fuel tank.  You will have to patch all the existing holes in the fuel tank you wish to repair before any of the treatments.
If you are using heat to make these patches, beware that a tank that is zinc coated internally (prior treatment of phosphoric acid) will release poisonous fumes, quite harmful for mammals of all kinds to inhale (This most certainly includes humans).

Cheers,

Hope..

In reading the posts to this thread..I agreed with the comments that soldering the holes shut..then perhaps coating the interior with an approved product..would be the best approach.  But..I was also thinking that you have to be really careful either soldering or brazing previously used gas tanks..particularly with open flames..which is the way it's usually done.

A very straight forward way to seal older gas tanks I've found..is to take them to a radiator repair shop to have them boiled-out and soldered shut..much the same as with used radiators.  It's been a few years since I've had that done..but the cost was quite reasonable..perhaps $50.00 @ today's prices.

After that's done you could follow up with a tank liner...as mentioned previously here.  Incidentally, the boil-out process usually will strip the tank down to bare metal..ready for paint prep...which can be an added bonus to the process.

In any event..wanted to pass this on to you.  It's worked well for me in past.

Ichi

[Terry in Australia]

Well the tank has rusted from the inside out, so there will be large areas inside where the metal will be paper thin, and welding will only burn holes in it.

To be effective, soldering or brazing would need to be done from the inside, to fill all the craters left after acid washing or electrolysis, unless the operator intends to bash dents into the outside of the rusted area and then "fill" it with solder or braze, but that's a pretty rough way of doing things.

You could cut a "trap door" in the underside of the tank, solder the seam from the inside, and then weld the trap door back up, but that's a pretty big job, and you'd probably need to seal the tank afterwards anyway. 

Personally, I'd just Kreem or POR-15 treat it, and touch up the paint. Cheers, Terry.

[kghost]

Well I tig weld in Itty Bitty patches (not SOHC ones Heffey).

I've found...If I stick my garden hose in the tank and let the water run for about half an hr they don't blow up 

[754]

well I suggested a good way to actually see the condition of the tank insides..

 but..

it looks like most of the people would rather gamble  (and put more cash into it) on wether the tank is worth doing or not..

[Hope]

I plan to try to keep the existing paint in tack with the exception of where the rusted hole is.  With that being said, I seriously doubt it will be hauling it down to the radiator shop for the tank to be boiled out.

The tank is already drained and off the bike, so I will put it in a tub of detergent and wash all the gas out.  We're gonna weld the rusted hole and POR15.

Just waiting for the POR15 to come in... 

754 - I have a cousin who runs networks up in the attics of Walmart across the nation.  He has all kind of handy electronic gadgets, so I'm gonna check and see if he has a snake camera that you speak of so that I can insure that I am properly addressing the rust holes

[Lumbee]

...if you guys go back to the beginning of the post with the pics of the stripped tank, the integrity looks pretty good.  Even the one where she takes a shot looking down in the tank, the inside looks immaculate.  My guess is that its leaking at one of the manufacturer welded seams...and not a case where rust has simply eaten all the way through the sheet metal.  Hope, when u bring me the tank, we'll take a wire wheel and remove all the paint where its bubbled up at and see if we can tell where the leak is coming from.  To be honest we may not even need to weld anything.  If its a pin hole leak, I would just do the Por15 kit...that will take care of any pin holes...

[754]

I think they are also called bore scopes. They used to be extremely expensive.

These ones here were on sale for around 250.00, they sold hundreds and we are not in a major population area.

So it should be easy to find somone with one. Boiler repair guys would use them.

The only drawback is you cannot download the pic but you could photo the pic ith a phone camera.

It would sure be handy buying vintage bikes to see the inside condition of a tank.. one small leak can ruin a lot of $s of paintwork.

 Hope your tank, hope you got extra paint, I would patch like you said, touch up and hope for the best.. nothin to lose, but if possible try to see what you are up against.

[Lumbee]

It would sure be handy buying vintage bikes to see the inside condition of a tank.. one small leak can ruin a lot of $s of paintwork.

...thats why I recommend people line their tank before they put any $$$ in a nice paint job.  Its cheap insurance for u'r paint job...

[Hope]

It would sure be handy buying vintage bikes to see the inside condition of a tank.. one small leak can ruin a lot of $s of paintwork.

...thats why I recommend people line their tank before they put any $$$ in a nice paint job.  Its cheap insurance for u'r paint job...

like I said... this is the 1st & last time I put an untreated tank on a bike!!!

[754]

Myself, if I could actually see inside the tank (which you can now) would never bother sealing one that looks good.

 I can only imagine  how much easier it would be to sell original paint tanks, and how much better a price you would get..if you could actually show clear pics of inside the tank..

[Terry in Australia]

Well I tig weld in Itty Bitty patches (not SOHC ones Heffey).

I've found...If I stick my garden hose in the tank and let the water run for about half an hr they don't blow up 

I use boiling water with some mild dishwashing detergent Tim, it not only cleans and neutralises the inside of the tank, it softens up any crappy enamel paintwork and makes it much easier to remove. Cheers, Terry.

[kghost]

Well I tig weld in Itty Bitty patches (not SOHC ones Heffey).

I've found...If I stick my garden hose in the tank and let the water run for about half an hr they don't blow up 

I use boiling water with some mild dishwashing detergent Tim, it not only cleans and neutralises the inside of the tank, it softens up any crappy enamel paintwork and makes it much easier to remove. Cheers, Terry.

Thats probably a good idea there Terry.

I'll have to give that a try after welding the holes up....Some don't seem to hold the soapy water well....

I let them run with the garden hose so as not to blow them up lol

Never thought about washing them.

[Hope]

Isolated rust...  hopefully!

Pics of the rust spot grinded down.  Looks to be isolated.  After a tack weld, I am going to POR15 this tank & then back to the body shop

[Lumbee]

...can't see it real good in the pics here, but this is the same spot that all the CB's have at the rear of the tank where the seat rubs through the paint.  Well, over the years, that spot rusted through to the inside of the tank.  Some suggested earlier that it might have rusted from the inside out, but not the case.  When Hope had the paint work done they just applied a little bondo to the spot, and smoothed it over.  I just tapped the spot a few times with the MIG, then sanded it down.  The application of the POR 15 will take care of any other "soft" spot in the tank though I doubt there are any...

[Hope]

...can't see it real good in the pics here, but this is the same spot that all the CB's have at the rear of the tank where the seat rubs through the paint.  Well, over the years, that spot rusted through to the inside of the tank.  Some suggested earlier that it might have rusted from the inside out, but not the case.  When Hope had the paint work done they just applied a little bondo to the spot, and smoothed it over.  I just tapped the spot a few times with the MIG, then sanded it down.  The application of the POR 15 will take care of any other "soft" spot in the tank though I doubt there are any...

LOL

I snapped pictures when your back was turned.  That pic was taken just before you welded it.   

Low quality pics from a camera phone....

[Dave-and-his-550]

After you remove the acid, rinse out the tank with fresh water and then dump in a relatively strong mixture of laundry detergent and water. Laundry detergent is a base, like baking soda, so it neutralizes any residual acid. Unlike baking soda, though, laundry detergent is also a detergent, so it cleans as well as neutralizes.

I did this method and it didn't work so well...After I used 'The Works' (A full bottle) I put in a gallon of warm water with a full scoop of detergent and rinsed it out. Then I fillled it up again with 2 gallons with detergent and shook it up real good, and let it sit for at least 10 minutes. After I rinsed it out, the shinny metal finish from the Works became a dull blackened finish, I then coated it with Marvels Mystery Oil and put some fuel in there. It still rusted. Granted, I did not fill it up ALL the way, as I wasn't nearly close to hooking it up and using it, but it still rusted, even though you claim it wont when empty.

I think it was because I didn't dilute the Works cleaner, and because it is such a strong acid, the detergent did not do its job so well.

I used a powdered laundry detergent. Did you use a liquid detergent? What brand or type should I use, liquid/powdered? I'd really like some tips again, because I got my bike all reassembled, and now I just gotta get the tank cleaned and ready to go.

I can't seem to find anything with a good amount of phosphoric acid in it. I'm seriously thinking of trying a litter of Pepsi or two. 

Has anybody used Klean-Strips Rust Remover? That works great on parts, when its scrubbed out, but I don't think it'll just lift off rust from a tank unless its scrubbed...

I don't see any options other then 'The Works' cleaner again, or maybe 2 litters of Pepsi! The local shop sells Kreem but I'm not about to mess with that mess.