Author Topic: Webcam 63a  (Read 3511 times)

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Offline Gamma

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Webcam 63a
« on: April 04, 2008, 07:48:08 AM »
I know this has been flogged to death already by Sean and others but:

I have just fitted a Web 63a.  The #'s information supplied with the cam was basic and only gave me running lash .004" and Valve lift 0.340".  All other information on the Valve timing information sheet has not been filled in.

I had previously downloaded a timing card from some king gentleman on this site, I forget who.  The Valve lift on that card states 0.370", with total duration 282 and @ .050"  260. and lobe centres at 103.

The card also gives the following info: Intake open at 27 BTDC and closes at 53 ABDC
                                                  Exhaust open at 53 BBDC and closes at 27 ATDC
All carried out with no lash and at the .050" lift position.

OK.  So I fitted the adjustable sprocket and eyeballed it for centre.

I measured and got 0.340" valve lift on the top of one of those nice ti retainers that Mrieck fitted (that agrees with Webcam info).

And I am getting:     Intake open 25  Closing 43
                           Exhaust open 43  Closing 25   Or as near as dammit, All done at .050" lift.
99 lobe centres.

So I have to ask:
Does this look good? 
Should I advance the cam a couple of degrees?
Should I retard the cam a couple of degrees?
Where has all my duration gone?








Offline Gamma

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Offline Gin Rickey

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Re: Webcam 63a
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2008, 06:40:34 PM »
I'm no help with the specifics...but that motor sure looks pretty!

Offline dakeddie

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Re: Webcam 63a
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2008, 07:04:29 PM »
Hi Gamma.  I made that card... the numbers where copied from the card that came with my webcam 63a and are not the actual numbers you would measure.  The numbers you have sound right to me, but I'll have to double check with my note once I get home.

I think the whole thing stinks... I was very pissed off when I was timing my cam.  I think Webcam fudges their numbers to make the cam more marketable, although many people say that cams are a 'black magic', so who knows really.  My bike sure goes, but I often wonder if it would go better with a Megacycle cam... at least their numbers match their card!

Anyway, I'll get back to you in a bit with my numbers.  I know that I advanced my cam a degree, so I would have got 100/98 LCs.  And yes, that engine sure is a beaut!

Offline FunJimmy

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Re: Webcam 63a
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2008, 07:24:49 PM »
many people say that cams are a 'black magic', so who knows really. 

Black magic maybe, but real numbers should always be provided IMO.

You might find the article "Check your lobe centers" by Doug Meyers of Muzzy worth a read.

http://www.muzzys.com/articles/lobe_centers.html

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Offline dakeddie

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Re: Webcam 63a
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2008, 07:38:25 PM »
Gamma,

My exact numbers as best as I could measure them were..

Intake LC : 97.6
Exhaust LC : 99.6

I figured that was close enough.

Jimmy, I remember reading that article when I was timing my engine... it's a good one.  Thanks.

Offline lordmoonpie

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Re: Webcam 63a
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2008, 01:51:59 AM »
My megacycle was 1 degree out on the lobe center figures but otherwise spot on. I've always found the attached article useful for dialling in although it's aimed at SOHC cars, it works perfectly if you work your way through it methodically...

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Golden Gate Lotus Club --- All rights reserved
Please feel free to print for your personal use. Webmasters can link to this page, please reference the GGLC as the source.
T E C H

Dialing in Cams

By Tim Engel

(Ed. Tim is a member of LOON - Lotus Owners Of the North. This article appeared in the LOON Tibune. Tim Engel resides in Mound, Montana and is on the Internet at <tengel@isd.net>)

 

The character and performance of a piston engine is largely determined by it's valve timing. Variables like compression ratio, induction and porting are important links in the same chain, but, valve timing sets the personality.

At 6000 RPM, the choreography between opening and closing valves, reciprocating pistons and high velocity gases is a precision exercise. There's a fine line between an engine that sings and one that chugs... or self-destructs.

In single-cam, push-rod engines like the Ford Kent or Renault/Europa units, there isn't much that can get out of whack. Both the block's crank-to-cam distance and the timing chain's pitch are accurately controlled during manufacture.

In overhead cam engines, particularly with multiple cams and/or cylinder heads, there are a multitude of dimensions that can get out of spec during an overhaul. The crankshaft to cam distance is an amalgam of block height, head gasket thickness & crush, head height and (on 907/Turbo engines) cam carrier height. In production, every dimension has a tolerance and consecutive engines off the assembly line will have noticeable differences.

If the head, block or cam carriers are cut to true up warped surfaces or to increase compression (not a good way to do it), the distance between the cams and the crank will also be shortened. When the idler/tensioner pulls the new found slack out of the timing chain or belt, the cams will be rotated slightly out of time.

To properly time an engine's valve train, you will need:

1. An inexpensive dial indicator with a base, and various extensions.

2. A Degree Wheel and Adapter Hub (auto parts store, Ford Parts Dept.).

3. Stiff wire to make a pointer a hanger wire works well).

4. A means of making small adjustments to the cam timing.

 

For engines in which the cams are driven by dowel pins (Lotus Twin Cam Ford), offset dowel pins are available. Since you won't know what offset you need when you start the job, purchase an assortment of dowel pins before starting.

Other engines like the Lotus 907 and Turbo require special two-piece pulleys that allow the outer rim to be indexed relative to the inner hub. That's about a $175 investment.

 

First find the TRUE Top Dead Center for the fully assembled engine. Set the number 1 piston to the factory indicated TDC position. Install the Degree Wheel on the front of the crankshaft. Grind a fine tapered point on a piece of heavy wire and bend up a pointer, using any nearby bolt to mount it. Install the Dial Indicator on the cylinder head such that the plunger (with appropriate extensions) passes through the spark plug hole and rests on the piston. The plunger should be depressed by about .300" to .400" down from TDC. With a positive stop, you obviously can't keep rotating the engine in it's normal direction. It will be necessary to bring the #1 piston up to the stop-bolt and take a degree reading. Then reverse direction one revolution and make the piston back up to the stop from the other direction and take a second reading. The effect is "similar" to taking dial indicator readings at the same height on the way up and on the way down.The problem with it is that:

A) Any clearances or slack in the engine components will effect the accuracy of the readings when you reverse the direction of rotation. With a tight, fresh engine the error should be minimal. With a worn engine it may be questionable. Even so, this method is probably more accurate than using the cast-in pointer.

B) This method only simplifies determining "TDC". You will still have to use the dial indicator on the cam lobes to measure MOP (after removing the stop-bolt -- two crank revolutions per cam rev). Zero the Dial Indicator.

Using a wrench and the retaining nut for the pulley on the front of the crankshaft, take up all the slack in the timing system by turning the engine one full revolution in it's normal direction of travel. For the rest of the process, do not turn the engine backward, since slack in the drive system will introduce errors.

When the piston is at TDC, the crank/ rod journal is moving sideways relative to the cylinder bore. With bearing clearances and such, the crank can move quite a bit between the time the pistons stops going up and when it starts going down. Therefore, measurements are taken before and after TDC and averaged. Noting the Dial Indicator, turn the engine through one more revolution.

Approach TDC slowly and stop precisely .200" before TDC (It's not important where you stop, but stop accurately so you can repeat it again and again). Note the degree reading at .200" before TDC. Rotate the engine to .200" after TDC and note the degree reading.

Rotate the engine one more revolution, this time watching the Degree Wheel. Stop precisely at the degree reading that is halfway between the two readings you just took. That should be TRUE TDC. Loosen the degree wheel (be careful not to disturb the crank) and turn it until zero aligns with the pointer. Re-tighten it. Repeat the process. If there is still a difference in the degree readings either side of zero, halve that, reset the degree wheel and try again. When zero on the Degree Wheel is precisely half way between your .200" before and .200" after TDC readings, it is indicating the TRUE TDC of the engine. Permanently mark TDC somewhere on the engine for future reference (front cover/ pulley, flywheel/ block, etc.).

Now check the cam timing. Use a similar process to find the Maximum Opening Point or MOP for the cam(s). Compare the measured MOP in crankshaft degrees with the value specified for the cam. Any difference will have to be "dialed out", or "degreed" by using appropriate offset dowel pins or adjustable pulleys.

MOP is an English term. In the USA, the term is "Lobe Centers". They're equivalent so don't let them confuse you. Either way, the unit of measure is crankshaft degrees, not camshaft degrees. If the shop manual doesn't give the MOP for the cam, it can be calculated from the cam's timing specs as follows:Lotus 907 "C" Cam Specs

Intake Duration Calculation 26 BTDC Intake Opens

26 Opens before Top Dead Center

66 ABDC Intake Closes

Between Top & Bottom Center
66 BBDC Exhaust Opens

66 Closes after Bottom Dead Center

26 ATDC Exhaust Closes

272 Duration (total open degrees)

The MOP occurs half way between opening and closing. In this case, 272 / 2 = 136 from the opening point. However, we want to measure from TDC, so subtract the 26 the valve opened before TDC...136 - 26 = 110 MOP.

For the exhaust cam, the numbers add up the same, except that the process ends 26 After TDC. Subtract the 26 to get back to TDC, and the MOP is still 110. However, the difference is that the intake MOP is after TDC and the exhaust MOP is before TDC Intake MOP Calculation:

Exhaust MOP Calculation: [(26 + 180 + 66) / 2] - 26 = 110 ATDC [(66 + 180 + 26) / 2] -26 = 110 BTDC. Draw a quick graph that looks like a two humped camel centered on a vertical line. The vertical line in the center of the page is TDC. A horizontal line low on the page is zero lift. Starting on the zero lift line 1/2" to the left of the TDC line, draw a symmetric bell shaped curve that sweeps up to the right, peaks to the right of the TDC line and returns to the zero lift line. Label that curve INTAKE. For the exhaust, draw a second bell shaped curve that's a mirror image of the first one, peaking to the left of the TDC line and ending 1/2" to the right of the TDC line. The two humped camel.

The distance from either peak to the TDC line is the MOP. Events start on the left of the graph and progress to the right. Advancing the cams will shift the curves to the left. Retarding the cams shifts the curves to the right. NOTE that to advance an inlet cam, you decrease the MOP. To advance the exhaust cam, you increase the MOP. Advancing or retarding both cams an equal amount does not change the overlap.

This is easy to screw-up when you're just playing with numbers in your head. When degreeing a DOHC engine, always draw the camel and label it with degrees for Valve Opens, MOP and Valve Closes. Mark both the specs from the workshop manual and the measurements you take from the engine. It will help you avoid the dumb mistakes.

Street cams usually have a MOP of 110 to 115 . A high MOP moves the humps apart, reducing the overlap. This gives a strong low end and a weak top end. Racing cams usually have a MOP of 102 to 104. A low MOP moves the humps closer together, increasing overlap. This gives a weak low end and a strong top end. Low end torque can be improved (at the expense of high end power) by advancing both cams an equal amount... up to about 2 (careful, advancing the cams reduces valve to piston clearance). A 110 MOP becomes 108 for the intake and 112 for the exhaust. Moving both cams like amounts in the same direction keeps the overlap the same. For single cam engines it's easier... just advance the cam about 2. The intake and exhaust have no choice but to move together.

Move the Dial Indicator to one of the tappets, setting it up with the plunger as close to perpendicular to the tappet face as possible. With the valve fully closed (there should be a clearance gap between the valve and the cam), the plunger should be depressed a little more than the specified maximum lift of the cam. Zero the Dial Indicator.

It is difficult to tell exactly when the tappet starts moving down and stops moving up... like finding TDC at the piston. Therefore, watch the Dial Indicator and rotate the engine slowly until the tappet has moved about .050". Note the reading on the Degree Wheel. Continue rotating the engine until the tappet has gone all the way down and returned to the .050" point. Again, note the reading on the Degree Wheel.

In the same way that the correct MOP for the cam was calculated from the cam's opening and closing specs, use the two readings to calculate the actual MOP. For the intake, the MOP is half the total movement indicated by the degree readings minus the number of degrees before TDC when the valve first reached the .050" open point. If the first reading for the inlet cam was 16 BTDC and the second was 48 ATDC, then 16 + 180 + 48 = 244 . The midpoint is half the duration or 122 from the point where the valve opened... at 16 BTDC. The MOP, from TDC, is 122 - 16 = 106. For the "C" cam the MOP is supposed to be 110, so the intake cam is advanced 4.

Repeat the process for the exhaust valve. For the sake of illustration, assume the resulting readings show the exhaust valve to reach .050" of lift at 50 BBDC and 14 ATDC. This example still assumes the 907 "C" cam with a spec MOP of 110 .

 

Intake MOP Calculation

Exhaust MOP Calculation [(16 + 180 + 48) / 2] - 16 = 106 ATDC

[(50 + 180 + 14) / 2] -14 = 108 BTDC 4 advanced - need to retard.

2 retarded - need to advance.

Use offset dowels or adjustable pulleys to dial in the cams and then repeat the procedure to verify the results. For street engines, accuracy within 2 is adequate. For racing engines, the cams should be dialed in within 1. 1 degree resolution is possible with offset dowel pins. If you can't be perfect, try for a little advanced, since normal wear tends to retard cam timing. For the Lotus-Ford Twin Cam, Cosworth probably produces the best offset dowels. They offer dowels in increments of .006" of cam offset. For the Lotus Twin Cam, .006" offset = 1/2 of Cam Degree change. But MOP is measured in Crankshaft Degrees. Since the cam turns half of crank speed, 1/2 at the cam is equal to 1 at the crank. In the example above, the intake cam needs to be retarded 4 at the crank. That's 2 at the cam. 2 is four 1/2 increments at .006" each, or a .024" offset dowel.

When using adjustable pulleys, follow the manufacturers instructions. Some use offset dowels to key the hub and rim together and the procedure is similar to that used on the Lotus Twin Cam. Others use a multitude of dowel holes or keyways.

In the early days of emissions controls, Lotus built some engines with mild street cams set at a low MOP. The increased overlap let some exhaust back into the chamber before the valve closed. This diluted the intake charge in much the same way as Exhaust Gas Recirculation, but without the valve. The poor low end performance typical of a Low MOP/ High Overlap helps explain why Federal Lotus Twin Cams and especially 907's of the mid to late 70's couldn't peel a grape below 3500 RPM.

That said, the knowledgeable tuner could calculate the correct MOP for a given cam from the opening/closing data given in the workshop manual and re-time the engine. For a little more low end torque, advance both cams 2 beyond the theoretical MOP. Always check cam/tappet and valve/piston clearances. Amazing what you can do with a bit of knowledge.PART II

When you get around to degreeing your engine...1.) You will need a way to mount the dial indicator to the top of the head. The normal mounting accessory for a dial indicator is an articulated arm. The type that attach to any convenient, nearby bolt or stud are probably the easiest to use. Others use a magnetic base; however it isn't going to stick to an aluminum head. If that's what you have, you will need another way to attach it. For the Lotus/Ford Twin Cam engine, for example, make a small "U"-shaped tray/table out of plywood or lumber-core. Cut it large enough to bridge the spark plug valley and overlap the inner cam cover studs. The legs of the "U" only need to be about an inch wide to be strong enough. The bottom of the "U" should be wide enough to provide a mounting surface for the magnetic base... probably covering the two rear sparkplugs.

 

This configuration will provide both a solid mounting surface and easy access to the #1 spark plug hole. Set it in place on top of the cam cover studs and use a mallet to strike it smartly above each stud, making impressions on the bottom side. Flip it over and drill clearance holes for the studs, using the impressions as position guides. Remove the cam cover, set the board down over the studs such that it rests on the bearing caps and secure it with four washers and nuts. Clamp, bolt or screw the magnetic base to the table. Both the table and the indicator should be solid, as any movement will translate into bogus readings from the dial indicator. With a little creativity, a similar set up can be used for most engines.2.) The stem of the dial indicator is not long enough to reach through the head and touch the piston at TDC. Extensions are typically available, but I don't have one yet. I'm looking for an off-the-shelf item now, or I may have something beautifully machined or totally cluged. If you decide to buy your own indicator, inquire about extensions.

3.) The biggest problem degreeing the Twin Cam engine as installed in the Europa is going to be reading the degree wheel attached to the engine's front pulley. It's a two person job with someone lying under the car taking degree readings and someone else topside reading the dial indicator. I don't have a good alternative for you right now. If you have one, I'd like to hear it.

4.) To find TDC... a simpler, slightly less accurate alternative to the dial indicator is a bolt/jam-nut screwed in through the sparkplug hole. Put the piston at TDC. Run the bolt in until it touches the piston. Back the piston down out of the way. Screw the bolt in about another .200" or so and tighten the jam-nut. Now you have a positive stop for the piston at a fixed distance down from TDC. With a positive stop, you obviously can't keep rotating the engine in it's normal direction. It will be necessary to bring the #1 piston up to the stop-bolt and take a degree reading. Then reverse direction one revolution and take the piston back up to the stop from the other direction and take a second reading. The effect is "similar" to taking dial indicator readings at the same height on the way up and on the way down. The problem with it is that: A) Any clearances or slack in the engine components will effect the accuracy of the readings when you reverse the direction of rotation. With a tight, fresh engine the error should be minimal. With a worn engine it may be questionable. Even so, this method is probably more accurate than using the cast-in pointer.

B) This method only simplifies determining "TDC". You will still have to use the dial indicator on the cam lobes to measure MOP (after removing the stop-bolt -- two crank revolutions per cam rev). If the engine is still in the Europa, you're back to a two-person job again. Since you have to enlisted a helper anyway, you may as well do the whole thing the optimal way. The beauty of it is that:

C) This method is dead simple (turn it until it stops), requiring no special skills in the use of a dial indicator. You can achieve a slightly reduced level of accuracy easily with minimal chance of introducing any operator error. If you don't know what you're doing, but you insist upon doing it anyway, this may be the way to go.D) One person could "TDC" the Europa from under the car. Just use a wrench on the front pulley bolt to turn the engine back and forth while taking readings. Be sure to re-torque the pulley bolt when you're done.NOTE: .of course, you still have to deal with the dial indicator and a Europa helper to measure the cam's MOP.
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Offline Gamma

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Re: Webcam 63a
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2008, 05:33:54 AM »
Thanks Gin, for the praise and Fun Jimmy and Lord Moony for the web site info and Dakeddie for the card and your cam settings.
My initial readings were not quite accurate, (I'm getting better).  Having turned the engine lots of times and measured a lot on no1 and then no4 cylinder,  Getting:
 
Inlet      open 26     close 41       
Exhaust  open 44     close 23   all measured at 0.50" lift     This gives me an inlet lobe centre of 97.5 and exhaust is 100.5.

I am now only interested in these lobe centre figures and have spoken to Mike Rieck by PM, who advises me that its basically up to me, but retarding the cam a little from its split position will boost upper rpm performance.
So I have adjusted to:
                          Inlet open at      21 and closes at 44.  Lobe centre is now 101.5
 
                          Exhaust open at 40 and closes at 28.   Lobe centre is now 96
All done at 050" lift.
This motor will be the basis of a fast street bike, yet to be decided.  Not for popping down the shops, and not for the drag strip.

Just waiting for a warm feeling from Mike on these figures before I wrap up the top end, and start saving for the CR carbs.


Offline lordmoonpie

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Re: Webcam 63a
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2008, 07:48:38 AM »
Those figures look pretty spot on to me....but I'll bow to Mike's experience of course  ;D
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Offline dakeddie

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Re: Webcam 63a
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2008, 10:10:34 AM »
Sorry, I said I advanced my cam a degree, but actually it's retarded a degree.  At the time, everyone said to retard it a degree.  That's what Sean did too I believe.

Offline scondon

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Re: Webcam 63a
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2008, 10:33:47 AM »
Gamma, your first set of numbers(first post) look spot on to what I got when I "squared" my cam. Since this cam has a "square" profile you will get matching #'s on intake and exhaust though they will be reversed i.e.

intake open 25  Closing 43
Exhaust open 43  Closing 25

   Your new #'s look to have the cam retarded about 4 degrees. I retarded mine 2 degrees and the power starts to hit at 6500rpm and hits full "rage" at 7000rpm while still keeping a good idle. I asked Mike what the max one would want to retard a cam and I think he said 5 degrees for a pump gas engine. 4 might be a bit much unless you plan on running at high rpm most of the time, just my thought as I am no expert.

    It's easy to get lost in all the #'s and profile information but the timing of the cam is a simple matter. Square the cam, then advance the engine(retard the cam) the # of degrees you wish. My 2 degree retard has the intake opening at 23 and the exhaust closing at 27. Your #'s may not match exactly, but you get the idea.

   The webcam lift is measured at the cam lobe. By the time it goes through the rockers to the valve the measure is less. Your lift #'s are in line with what I got.
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Offline Gamma

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Re: Webcam 63a
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2008, 01:14:09 PM »
Thanks for that guys,

So at least I've moved it the right way for my needs.  And as you're both running without problems, I am considering bringing it back just a touch.

This forum is great, an absolute mine of information,  and enthusiasts.  Even I'm an enthusiast now!