Topic: Clutch questions.

[cbass*gxc]

So really it is just one.  When I tighten the 4 bolts on the clutch lifter plate for a 78 cb550, do I tighten them as tight as they will go or do I leave them a little loose?  I do not remember how they were when I took them off.

[TwoTired]

The bolts are tightened in a criss cross pattern to 7.2- 10.1 ft lbs.

Chapter 1 of the Honda service manual.

Cheers,

[cbass*gxc]

Ya I got that and I have been looking at the parts list and everything I have is right and looks to be in the right order.  But when ever I lift up on the clutch lever on the right crank case cover it doesnt move.  I have tried adjusting the clutch adj lever but it still doesnt move.  I have taken the clutch apart and cleaned everything and put it back together just like it says in the repair manual and the service manual. 

http://www.mrcycles.com/fiche_image_popup.asp?fveh=2947&section=123275&year=1978&make=Honda&category=Motorcycles&dc=792&name=CLUTCH

How exactly does this clutch work?  I just erased about 5 lines explaining how I think it works then realized my way would be opposite of how it works.  I know that when you pull the clutch lever it is supposed release the friction plates and the clutch plates but how exactly does it work on this bike.  It seems that when I tighten all 4 bolts it compresses the clutch to where it cant release.

[754]

The aluminum presure plate goes in a few different ways, wiggle it when you try to install..you should feel it click as it catches the splines & drops in slightly.

 It is hanging up right now.

 Sent the plug out to you today..

[mystic_1]

OK, it goes something like this:



The clutch basket (#1) is firmly attached via a splined connection to the primary driven gear.  Power is transmitted from the crankshaft here.  The tabs on the friction plates mesh with this.

The clutch center (#3) is firmly attached to the transmission primary shaft.  The tabs on the insides of the steel discs mesh with this.

The basket and center can turn independantly of each other.

Now, the lifter plate (#9) is connected to the pressure plate (#8) and these can move in and out relative to the clutch center.  The clutch springs (#10) want to keep the lifter plate pressed outwards, which pulls outwards on the pressure plate, sandwiching the clutch discs between itself and the clutch center.  In this state your clutch is engaged.

When you pull the clutch lever, the clutch lifter mechanism presses inwards on the lifter plate (#9) causing it and the pressure plate (#8) to move inwards.  Meanwhile the clutch center (#3) stays where it is.  As a result the pressure is released from the clutch plates and your clutch is disengaged.


The most common problem I've seen when reassembling these is to not have the pressure plate's inner splines properly aligned with the clutch center.  Take just these two parts, and hold them together with no other parts involved.  The studs on the pressure plate pass through the four holes in the clutch center.  When they're together, notice the outer splines on the clutch center - they should align with the similar splines on the face of the pressure plate (not visible in picture).  Only one orientation will work - try turning the plate 90 degrees at a time until the splines line up properly, then mark the parts with a sharpie so that you can align them that way when you reassemble everything.

When the splines do not align properly, the clutch plates won't slide all the way down into the pressure plate like they should.  As a result, the clutch pack is too wide and when you tighten down the spring bolts everything locks up and won't move.  The pressure plate is already being forced inwards by the splines on the first steel plate, so it can't move any further, but because the splines are pressing against each other the clutch is 'engaged'.

hth

mystic_1



Edit:  In other words, what 754 said!  lol 

[754]

Good job explaining it,
That is what we were trying to tell the other guy on Sunday..

[cbass*gxc]

Thank you mystic.  That is how I thought it worked after taking another look at it.  So I get the pressure plate to move back and forth with out the bolts and springs in or with them in but only tightened a few turns, but once I tighten them down it doesnt move.  Are you supposed to be able to lift the clutch lever with your fingers and feel it separate or do you have to have the actual clutch lever on the handle bar and the clutch cable connected to move it?  It seems right but like I said once I start tightening the bolts I cant push it in anymore. 

I do not have a clutch cable connected yet, still waiting on it to come in.  Hopefully it will be in here the next few days and I can try it with the handle bar lever.

[mystic_1]

The spring pressure is pretty high, you're trying to compress all four clutch springs at the same time.  With the springs installed, you shouldn't be able to push the lifter plate in by hand.  The ramps and balls in the lifter cam give you some mechanical advantage.  If you install the cover and lifter arm assembly, you may be able to operate it using long channel lock pliers or the like but you run the risk of buggering the parts like that.  Best to wait for a clutch cable.  Is the old one still around?  If so hook it up for a quick test.


good luck
mystic_1

[cbass*gxc]

Well i hooked the old cable up and it seemed like it may move but I do not have the original lever so I cant test that yet.  Hopefully my cable will be here today and I can hook it up and test it.  I will post my findings.

Thanks
Jay

[Tower]

Jay, the explanations you've been getting are correct to a great extent.  There is one nuance that might be giving you misconception, and that is...the pressure plate will slide onto the clutch inner in any of the four positions - until you torque down the bolts.  The reason is that the exact alignment of these two aluminum parts is not achieved until the bolts are snugged.  Until then, there may be enough tolerance in the parts that they appear to be correctly aligned. 

When testing which of the four positions is right you must include the springs and bolts.  Two positions of the four will look like they fit.  Two will be completely out of alignment, i.e. the pressure plate teeth will scrape along the sclutch inner splines.  Of the two that look close, one will not have any lateral play.  The remaining one is the correct position.

Edit: you can pull the lever without a cable, by using a bent cottor-pin and grabbing the pin with pliers.

[cbass*gxc]

Sweet!  I guess I will just wait until I get my cable in and test it that way.  Ya tower that is why I ask these questions because I know I will get a good answer.  This makes sure I understand it completely.  I know I should probably read both manuals but I cant sit still for that long.

[754]

On a 750, run the cover and screws on finger tight, then you can put a 6 inch crescent on the arm to test if clutch works..dont force it..

[cbass*gxc]

So I spent the evening messing with it and finally got it to work.  So it looks as though it will get its first taste of sunshine tomorrow.  My cable came in the mail today and I got it installed and it seems to work good.  I will try to get some video of the first ride.

Thanks Guys

[mystic_1]

Excellent, glad you got that sorted.  Let us know how the test run goes.

mystic_1

[Tower]

Jay, don't keep us in suspense so.  What was the problem? Did you figure it out, or is it still a bit of a mystery?

[cbass*gxc]

Well I do not know exactly what it was.  I took the right side cover and clutch apart probably 5 or 6 times last night, so I couldnt tell you what exactly fixed the problem.  It got a little too late and I didnt want to piss off the neighbors so I am going to take it for a ride this evening.

One question though, when you put it in gear and pull the clutch is the tire supposed to spin freely like it is in neutral or should there still be a little resistance?  I noticed that when I put it in gear the tire wont spin at all without the clutch pulled in but when I pull it in, it spins but not freely.

[greenjeans]

That's kinda how my clutch adventures ended.....don't really have a handle on what I did different (I had the basket off at least 4 times) but finally it seems to work.   Mine will spin in gear with the clutch in, but not like it's in nuetral....discs are too close to spin that freely, I'm pretty sure there will always be a bit of a drag....I could be wrong,

We'll see what the others say.

[Tower]

As a method of last resort, remove the friction plate next to the pressure plate.  i.e. you'll have one less disk in your clutch assembly.  Don't worry about the last steel plate getting worn, as it spins exactly along with the pressure plate.  This gives you more play in the clutch.  Readjust the clutch levers as per your manual (Always remember after loosening the adjuster nut, to turn out the adjusting bolt a few turns before starting the adjustment process).

If this fixes the problem so your wheel spins freely, then its an indication your plates are either warped, or wrong size for the clutch, or you have severely mis-adjusted the lower clutch lever.  If your clutch is too mushy for your tastes, then measure all disks for thickness and warpage, re&re any that are out of tolerance, return the friction disk, and redo the adjustments one more time.