Author Topic: 67mm Henry Abe piston ring instalation questions (Read 7901 times)

fang · « **on:** April 24, 2008, 02:57:30 PM »

Hello all.
For My 67 Henry Abe Piston kit, I have some questions about the piston rings. My kit did not come with ann instructions regarding piston rings. Fist, I have these pistons:

(Thank you Axle for the picture.)

The rings have two top rings and a 3-piece oil ring. Here are my questions:
1. With the top two rings, which one goes on top? I am assuming that the top of each ring is stamped. Both rings have a small "T" stamped near the gap on one side, so that probably is the top side. But I am not 100% sure about which one is the top ring. One ring is a L-profile ring, and I am assuming this is the bottom ring. Any thoughts or comments?

2. The 3-piece oil rings. Any tips on assembling these? I thought that the ends were supposed to lock together somehow, but they don't look like they can do this. Any thoughts or comments on this?

I will do my best to take and post some pictures of the piston rings ASAP.

Thank you!
Peace and grease
-fang

Big Jay · « **Reply #1 on:** April 24, 2008, 03:13:50 PM »

You didn't show the rings, but I would guess that one of the top rings is black, and one is chrome, kind of a dull silver color. If so, the chrome ring goes on top. The small T faces up in the motor

Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er · « **Reply #2 on:** April 24, 2008, 05:14:41 PM »

Fang,

Glad to see you're back at the 900 again. My NOS Henry Abe kit like your's has 1 piece oil rings. The rings are in induividual packaging with HA-67 STD labeling. Wish I had your 3 piece rings! Stagger the gaps in the 3 pieces when you install them. You will have a gap in each of the 3 pieces. I believe you are supposed to install the middle ring then the outer rings. Who did you get to do the cylinders and how much did they charge you?

Jerry

Big Jay · « **Reply #3 on:** April 24, 2008, 07:00:24 PM »

The clearances on those Abe instructions are way too loose for the 900 (890) kit.

Jay

Gamma · « **Reply #4 on:** April 24, 2008, 07:57:10 PM »

These Wiseco instructions might be of use to you, particularly for the oil ring.
(Although the 'engine front' label on illustration 1 looks wrong).
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z293/galaxy8155/WisecoRings2.jpg[/img]]

Gamma · « **Reply #5 on:** April 24, 2008, 07:58:41 PM »

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z293/galaxy8155/WisecoRings1.jpg[/img]]

Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er · « **Reply #6 on:** April 24, 2008, 08:03:09 PM »

Quote from: Big Jay on April 24, 2008, 07:00:24 PM

The clearances on those Abe instructions are way too loose for the 900 (890) kit.

Jay

Jay,

Those are the instructions that came in my NOS kit. They do seem loose to me also but I'd always thought that 70's tech might need to be different that today's tech. What would you recommend the clearances be bored to using those nos 70's cast pistons? Using their .001" (from the range of .001 to .0015) per inch of piston it actually comes out to .00263".

Jerry

Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er · « **Reply #7 on:** April 24, 2008, 08:12:10 PM »

Gamma,

Any way you could rotate those scans?

We need those added to the FAQ or other appropriate library on this site. Any moderators or Glenn out there that might make this happen?

Andoo · « **Reply #8 on:** April 24, 2008, 10:54:05 PM »

I would put that kit on a shelf and keep it as a token. Buy a set of forged wisco pistons and enjoy the performance and reliability.

Gamma · « **Reply #9 on:** April 25, 2008, 05:41:52 AM »

Here we are.
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z293/galaxy8155/WisecoRings1-1.jpg[/img]]

Gamma · « **Reply #10 on:** April 25, 2008, 05:43:33 AM »

fang · « **Reply #11 on:** April 25, 2008, 11:11:38 AM »

Here is the piston ring's "L-profile" which I was mentioning earlier. Sorry no pictures of the piston rings at the moment. It was late and I was motivated, so I went ahead, made an educated guess and just buttoned the motor up last night. Since the piston rings are currently hidden somewhere up inside the motor, it is easier to just draw an approximation of what I remember it looks like. However, for the life of me, I can't remember which side of the ring was the top.

Was the mark on the grooved or ungrooved side? Either way, I know I put the marked side on top. Both of the top rings are marked/stamped "T" for top. Here is the picture:

This ring is a dull iron color. The other ring was shiny black with chrome outer edges. This does not look like a top ring to me so I put it in as the second ring. IF I got it wrong, then whatever. I'll just pop them out and swap them, but we all know that will be easier with the motor still on the bench.

To put this all in perspective, you might ask, "why the big rush?" Well, I'm motivated... and I have a deadline. Several months ago I made an agreement with my amazing wife: If the bike is not together by the end of May I have to sell it all, as is, probably just for parts, and I don't want to do that. There is more to it than just that, but you will have to trust me that this was a good/fair/generous deal. I now have only a few days to keep my end of it!

So, last night I stayed up late and buttoned up the motor and bench set the timing. It took a few hours, but now it is more or less ready to go, assuming the piston rings are not in backwards. Early on, before I started getting tired, I shot a quick picture of me torquing my con rods, plastigauging the new bearings for clearance. Happily they (and the crank bearings) all are a very perfect 0.0009" - 0.0012". It is a good feeling to jump head first in to a well-planned, long anticipated project and have it start off so well.

Here is the motor as I left it last night:

There is still a lot to do, but this was a good place/time to stop and go to bed.

SO, WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT PISTON RING? I put it in as ring #2.

Peace and grease
-fang

Gamma · « **Reply #12 on:** April 25, 2008, 12:03:10 PM »

I'd have put the shiny black one with chrome edges on top position and the one you've drawn, in position 2.
Also don't overlap the corrugated oil ring.

This just my opinion, hopefully others will comment.

fang · « **Reply #13 on:** April 25, 2008, 01:35:47 PM »

+1. That is exactly what I did.
-fang

Big Jay · « **Reply #14 on:** April 25, 2008, 03:36:11 PM »

That was correct.

Big Jay · « **Reply #15 on:** April 25, 2008, 03:38:21 PM »

Quote from: RxmanGriff on April 24, 2008, 08:03:09 PM

Quote from: Big Jay on April 24, 2008, 07:00:24 PM
The clearances on those Abe instructions are way too loose for the 900 (890) kit.

Jay

Jay,

Those are the instructions that came in my NOS kit. They do seem loose to me also but I'd always thought that 70's tech might need to be different that today's tech. What would you recommend the clearances be bored to using those nos 70's cast pistons? Using their .001" (from the range of .001 to .0015) per inch of piston it actually comes out to .00263".

Jerry

I have set those up at ./0015 to .002" Never a problem Some of those kits had one piece oil rings, and those loose tolerances are asking a lot from that ring to control oil when the piston is rocking in the bore.

Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er · « **Reply #16 on:** April 25, 2008, 10:18:54 PM »

Jay,

My kit has the 1 piece rings but the intent is to ship the pistons off to Total Seal to have them cut for 3 piece rings as I did for the 1080 pistons. Thanks for the clearance info too. What will it take to get you guys to resleeve, etc for the 900 pistons considering I have the sleeves in the kit?

Big Jay · « **Reply #17 on:** April 26, 2008, 10:55:25 AM »

http://www.aperaceparts.com/machining.html

Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er · « **Reply #18 on:** April 26, 2008, 12:35:09 PM »

Quote from: Big Jay on April 26, 2008, 10:55:25 AM

http://www.aperaceparts.com/machining.html

Jay,

Would this need only the LC250 & LC150 procedures?

Thanks again,
Jerry

MRieck · « **Reply #19 on:** April 26, 2008, 01:59:25 PM »

Quote from: RxmanGriff on April 26, 2008, 12:35:09 PM

Quote from: Big Jay on April 26, 2008, 10:55:25 AM
http://www.aperaceparts.com/machining.html

Jay,

Would this need only the LC250 & LC150 procedures?

Thanks again,
Jerry

I'll chime in....yes Jerry

fang · « **Reply #20 on:** April 26, 2008, 03:08:44 PM »

Hijacked!

-fang

Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er · « **Reply #21 on:** April 26, 2008, 04:56:02 PM »

How's the bike coming Fang?

fang · « **Reply #22 on:** December 29, 2008, 01:24:46 PM »

Time to wake up the ghost! I kind of stalled out on this motor. He he he.

It turns out that I pinched one of the 3-piece oil rings as I assembled the thing (it was late at night). This created two problems:
1. It ruined the oil ring
2. It damaged the piston -- But I did not realize this until MUCH later.

When I realized I damaged the ring I went on a search for a replacement set of rings. When I finally found a set I bought them and was sad to see they had the big fat single piece oil rings.... Oh well. That was a few months ago.

When I went to assemble the motor two or three weeks ago I gave everything a thorough inspection and discovered that when the oil ring got pinched it actually broke the metal of the piston. About a 1.5" length of metal came off from between the rings. A picture would be easier to see, but the piston metal "rib" between the oil ring and the middle ring came off.

I was VERY saddened by this.

But I also was pretty motivated. So I went through boxes of stuff and found a set of old cylinders and a set of pistons and rings, cleaned it all up, and carefully measured it all. I eventually found a set that would work together, and I put the 900cc big bore motor together with a set of stock 736cc pistons and cylinders, with a stock cam too.

So that is that for now. The bike is running strong, but is blowing a TON of smoke. DANG! I guess I need a replacement Henry Abe 67mm piston ASAP. Until then, I guess I will continue to drive the bike a little, hoping the smoke will magically just go away.

peace and grease,
-fang

Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er · « **Reply #23 on:** December 29, 2008, 07:05:06 PM »

Welcome back. Your Abe pistons are the same as mine but mine came with the 1 piece oil rings. Wish we could ID your 3 piece rings to get replacements however I know you now need another piston too. That really sucks. All else fails I will have the pistons cut and fitted with 3 piece rings before assembly.

paulages · « **Reply #24 on:** December 30, 2008, 02:02:31 AM »

Quote from: fang on December 29, 2008, 01:24:46 PM

Time to wake up the ghost! I kind of stalled out on this motor. He he he.

It turns out that I pinched one of the 3-piece oil rings as I assembled the thing (it was late at night). This created two problems:
1. It ruined the oil ring
2. It damaged the piston -- But I did not realize this until MUCH later.

When I realized I damaged the ring I went on a search for a replacement set of rings. When I finally found a set I bought them and was sad to see they had the big fat single piece oil rings.... Oh well. That was a few months ago.

When I went to assemble the motor two or three weeks ago I gave everything a thorough inspection and discovered that when the oil ring got pinched it actually broke the metal of the piston. About a 1.5" length of metal came off from between the rings. A picture would be easier to see, but the piston metal "rib" between the oil ring and the middle ring came off.

I was VERY saddened by this.

But I also was pretty motivated. So I went through boxes of stuff and found a set of old cylinders and a set of pistons and rings, cleaned it all up, and carefully measured it all. I eventually found a set that would work together, and I put the 900cc big bore motor together with a set of stock 736cc pistons and cylinders, with a stock cam too.

So that is that for now. The bike is running strong, but is blowing a TON of smoke. DANG! I guess I need a replacement Henry Abe 67mm piston ASAP. Until then, I guess I will continue to drive the bike a little, hoping the smoke will magically just go away.

peace and grease,
-fang

very sad to hear about the piston damage. for future reference, the tech dept. at hastings has been very helpful to me helping match single rings from a broken set. i forget the lady's name, but call over there with your specs and she'll help you find the right ring if they make anything like it. guess it doesn't do you much good with a damaged piston though.

fang · « **Reply #25 on:** February 09, 2010, 10:52:34 PM »

Bump

How about blowing off the dust for some serious necro posting?

I am putting this motor together again. It has been on the back burner for ever, push aside for flashier new things. But it will be coming together real soon. Digging through the old posts, I think I first started talking about how I thought "I would be done with this motor in a about a week" maybe in early 2006? I am pretty sure I started collecting parts to build this motor back in the 1990's.... Not bad for "I think I'll be done in a week!" lol

Meanwhile I have a 2nd 900cc motor that I will be buttoning up first. It is pretty and I purchased it more or less finished. I'll toss some pics here real soon.

I think I have a bike to sell soon, and if all goes well I will be finishing up this epic motor some time REAL soon (after that). Possibly as soon as early 2012.

peace and grease,
fang

Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er · « **Reply #26 on:** February 10, 2010, 08:19:05 AM »

Quote from: Jerry Rxman Griffin on December 29, 2008, 07:05:06 PM

Welcome back. Your Abe pistons are the same as mine but mine came with the 1 piece oil rings. Wish we could ID your 3 piece rings to get replacements however I know you now need another piston too. That really sucks. All else fails I will have the pistons cut and fitted with 3 piece rings before assembly.

Fang,

I found off the shelf rings for our Abe pistons at Total Seal thanks to Ed and have the item numbers at home if you should need them. I actually started disassembly last week. Hope to pull the engine in the next year or 2

Jerry

Ricky_Racer · « **Reply #27 on:** February 10, 2010, 10:01:58 AM »

Jerry, could you please post the Total Seal info for the record? I picked up one of the NOS ring/gasket packages for my HA900 but it'd be great to have newer rings as an option. Thanks! RR

Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er · « **Reply #28 on:** February 10, 2010, 11:34:16 AM »

Quote from: Ricky_Racer on February 10, 2010, 10:01:58 AM

Jerry, could you please post the Total Seal info for the record? I picked up one of the NOS ring/gasket packages for my HA900 but it'd be great to have newer rings as an option. Thanks! RR

Will do when I get back home. Not sure if these will fit both style pistons but my pistons are the lighter weight pistons with the inset skirts. Also these are the 3 piece oil rings. Maybe we can get this info placed in a permanent post. FAQ?? Or where else could they go? Do we have a special parts only place?

Jerry

fang · « **Reply #29 on:** February 10, 2010, 11:37:11 AM »

I did buy some 3-piece oil rings from somewhere about a year ago. I need to go back and verify from whom they were purchased. Either way, they are sitting in the box with about a dozen HA pistons and other misc stuff waiting for me to assemble.

Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er · « **Reply #30 on:** February 10, 2010, 04:37:33 PM »

Total Seal piston rings for Henry Abe 900cc kit:

Top ring - Total Seal part number 203778

Middle ring - Total Seal part number 201336

Oil ring 3 piece - Total Seal part number 001549

Again, please note, Henry Abe made 2 piston sets. These numbers are for the lighter weight pistons that do NOT have the full skirt. They MAY work for the full skirted pistons.

Hope this will help.

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Author Topic: 67mm Henry Abe piston ring instalation questions (Read 7901 times)

Andoo