Author Topic: CB350F: On-bike carb diagnosis/repair?  (Read 2888 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline frappy

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 51
CB350F: On-bike carb diagnosis/repair?
« on: April 27, 2008, 11:41:56 AM »
Hi folks, So I got a good set of carbs off eBay and installed them yesterday. The bike ran great and now that I got those other shabbily rebuilt/tuned carbs off the bike, I finally know that she's going to be a runner (after sitting for 20 years). Hooray!

Problem now is carb #2 is leaking out the overflow. It's a constant drip every 2-3 seconds and the spark plug is sooty black (but firing fairly well as the exhaust is hot).

From what I read here on the forum: I believe that I should be looking for:
1.) misadjusted float height,
2.) binding/sticking float pivot,   
3.) cracked overflow tube,
4.) pin-hole in the float, or;
5.) leaking float valve or seat.

Here are my questions about resolving my carb #2 overflow problem:
A.) by singling out the float area, am I looking in the correct area?
B.) if so, are there any other float-related issues that I'm overlooking?
C.) is it possible to do the examination of and any/all of the necessary repairs to the above items with the carbs on the bike or should I remove the carbs to inspect/repair/adjust? 

Thanks a bunch! ;D
CB350F
MT250

Offline kghost

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,853
  • www.facebook.com/RetroMecanicaAustralia
Re: CB350F: On-bike carb diagnosis/repair?
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2008, 11:45:46 AM »
Sounds to me like your zero'd in.

I would recommend removing them..its awful hard to get two off and ajusted on the bike.

If it were the bale holders I'd say sure but with the four screws retaining the bowl....rather more challenging.
Stranger in a strange land

Offline frappy

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 51
Re: CB350F: On-bike carb diagnosis/repair?
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2008, 10:26:32 PM »
Cool, thanks for the feedback.  Before removing the carbs entirely again (even though it's easy) I'll first try removing the bowl screws with a phillips-head driver bit inserted into an appropriately sized socket and ratchet.
CB350F
MT250

Offline Gordon

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,114
  • 750K1, 550K2
Re: CB350F: On-bike carb diagnosis/repair?
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2008, 06:37:31 AM »
Cool, thanks for the feedback.  Before removing the carbs entirely again (even though it's easy) I'll first try removing the bowl screws with a phillips-head driver bit inserted into an appropriately sized socket and ratchet.


Even if you can get it sorted out with the carbs on the bike, I think you'll probably find it very difficult to get the bowl back on while keeping the gasket in place at the same time.   

Offline bozo4onion

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 368
Re: CB350F: On-bike carb diagnosis/repair?
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2008, 07:15:35 AM »
Hey Frappy, Please post results. I'm right where you are w/my 550. leaking from 1 carb. I have the same diagnostic list as you so please post when you find the problem. Float valves are pricey from Honda so I hope you (and I) just need a float adjustment. Good luck. I would remove the carbs. Not necessary to unrack them though. Is the 350 as much of a #$%* to get the carbs. off? 

Offline bender01

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,861
  • "Follow the leader.He's on a Honda"
Re: CB350F: On-bike carb diagnosis/repair?
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2008, 07:41:37 AM »
the 350 carbs are even closer than the 550 to put on and off. But ive found that a small elecrical space heater set on a milk crate while im working on the carbs softens the boots and plastic air box. It makes it much easier to put the carbs back on...
75 550 K1
74 750 K4
1968 450 K1 Super Sport
74 750k 836 project
http://www.bikepics.com/members/bender01/
So, the strategy is to lie to people you are asking for help?

I think I'll be busy going for a ride.

Good luck!
Two Tired Quote !

Offline hapsh

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 178
    • Listen to the latest tracks from JazzCancer
Re: CB350F: On-bike carb diagnosis/repair?
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2008, 07:49:38 AM »
Hey Frappy, Please post results. I'm right where you are w/my 550. leaking from 1 carb. I have the same diagnostic list as you so please post when you find the problem. Float valves are pricey from Honda so I hope you (and I) just need a float adjustment.

Usually floats have to be pretty bad to make the float hight too high all the time.  Even if they are slightly leaking because of pitting of the seat or float needle they are usually fine while the bike is running and you just have to turn off your petcock when it the engine is off.  I have had my share of leaky float valves, most of them were caused by dirty gas or sticking pivots.  My bet is on the float miss-adjusted or stuck.
'71 CB500/550, '72 CB450, '79 RD400 Daytona, '90 FZR600R

Offline bozo4onion

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 368
Re: CB350F: On-bike carb diagnosis/repair?
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2008, 11:38:02 AM »
Thanks for the tip. My box was so hard (literally  :D) I was afraid I'd scratch or cut it. Keep us posted. Seems like these bikes are so well engineered, then something like this (and the master cylinder rebuild) comes along. Clutch replacement is simple compared to the cylinder.

Offline frappy

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 51
Re: CB350F: On-bike carb diagnosis/repair?
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2008, 08:36:29 PM »
So I did a little more digging before removing the carbs.  I took the drain screw out of the bottom of the float bowl, drained out the remining fuel and then turned on the petcock.  Fuel dripped out of the drain screw hole constantly at the same rate that it dripped out of the overflow.  So that rules out items 1-4 and says it's got to be a leaking float valve/seat.  I'm sure this repair will have to be done with the carbs off the bike.  Does anyone have any tips/tricks/things to avoid when tearing into my carb to do this type of repair?  Thanks.
CB350F
MT250

Offline Gordon

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,114
  • 750K1, 550K2
Re: CB350F: On-bike carb diagnosis/repair?
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2008, 08:44:00 PM »
So I did a little more digging before removing the carbs.  I took the drain screw out of the bottom of the float bowl, drained out the remining fuel and then turned on the petcock.  Fuel dripped out of the drain screw hole constantly at the same rate that it dripped out of the overflow.  So that rules out items 1-4 and says it's got to be a leaking float valve/seat.  I'm sure this repair will have to be done with the carbs off the bike.  Does anyone have any tips/tricks/things to avoid when tearing into my carb to do this type of repair?  Thanks.

I agree that you should probably pull the carbs for the inspection/repair, but I don't see how you could diagnose the problem by just removing the drain screw.  Items 1-5 could all be possible causes for the symptom you've described. 

Offline Trevor from Warragul

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,094
Re: CB350F: On-bike carb diagnosis/repair?
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2008, 02:48:25 AM »
To cure a leaking float valve place a long thin piece of wood against the float bowl & give it a few hard taps with a hammer.  Don't laugh, I've done this with my 350/4 & it does work!
1971 Kawasaki H1A
1972 Honda CB350F
1976 Moto Morini 3 1/2 Sport
1978 Honda CBX
1997 Suzuki Bandit 1200
1999 Ducati Monster 750

Offline frappy

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 51
Re: CB350F: On-bike carb diagnosis/repair?
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2008, 10:47:34 PM »
Quote
Gordon wrote: I agree that you should probably pull the carbs for the inspection/repair, but I don't see how you could diagnose the problem by just removing the drain screw.  Items 1-5 could all be possible causes for the symptom you've described. 

You're right, Gordon - not sure what I was thinking. I spent last night pouring over a great read: Honda's Guide to Motorcycle Carburetion at http://www.sohc4.net/index.php?title=TechLibrary#Carburetor_System and I certaily jumped the gun in my diagnosis. I'll focus first on the valve and seat, then the float and pivot.  I'm on vacation this week and away from the bike, so I'll have to try these things when I get back home this weekend.
CB350F
MT250

Offline frappy

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 51
Re: CB350F: On-bike carb diagnosis/repair?
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2008, 11:58:58 PM »
Quote
morini wrote:  To cure a leaking float valve place a long thin piece of wood against the float bowl & give it a few hard taps with a hammer.  Don't laugh, I've done this with my 350/4 & it does work!

Is this a temporary fix or a permanent one? 

I ask becuase I wonder what occurred when tapping the bowl with the dowel and hammer - did it dislodge some particle that had gotten stuck between the float valve and seat?  Thanks
CB350F
MT250

Offline Gordon

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,114
  • 750K1, 550K2
Re: CB350F: On-bike carb diagnosis/repair?
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2008, 03:00:34 AM »
Quote
morini wrote:  To cure a leaking float valve place a long thin piece of wood against the float bowl & give it a few hard taps with a hammer.  Don't laugh, I've done this with my 350/4 & it does work!

Is this a temporary fix or a permanent one? 

I ask becuase I wonder what occurred when tapping the bowl with the dowel and hammer - did it dislodge some particle that had gotten stuck between the float valve and seat?  Thanks


It depends on how often you have to do it.  Normally, when tapping the float bowl stops an overflow situation it's either freeing up a sticky float hinge pin or knocking a valve needle into place that's not seating properly.  I have to do this occasionally on all my bikes, but not too often.  If you find you're having to do this on a regular basis, then it's probably time to open them up, clean/polish up the hinge pins, and possibly replace the needle valves if necessary. 

Offline frappy

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 51
Re: CB350F: On-bike carb diagnosis/repair?
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2008, 12:19:10 AM »
Quote
Gordon wrote: If you find you're having to do this on a regular basis, then it's probably time to open them up, clean/polish up the hinge pins, and possibly replace the needle valves if necessary. 

Gordon, thanks for the guidance. I just returned home from vacation and gave them a good rapping today - to no avail.  Also took a test ride and gave her a good WOT blast, but it's still leaking.  I'll have to remove the rack and open them up.  Stay tuned...
CB350F
MT250

Offline frappy

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 51
Re: CB350F: On-bike carb diagnosis/repair?
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2008, 12:20:32 AM »
Thanks to everyone for your guidance and support.  Was able to successfully sort out and rebuild the carbs on my CB350F.  I now finally have this little jewel of a bike running like she should.  Never thought it would happen, but thanks to all of you I have one sweet machine.  What a relief.  I was finally able to let myself spend some time polishing her now that I know she’s now going to run well.

For the rebuild I followed the Honda factory service manual.  I used 4 Honda float valve sets p/n 16011-329-004 as well as 4 of carb gasket sets p/n 16010-333-315.  It was $150 total for all 4 kits! Carbs were cleaned ultrasonically (not by me) and were a pleasure to rebuild.  All I had to do was minimal cleaning (way inside the carbs). 

I checked all orifices using a magnifying glass (these carbs sure are small).  I also double-checked cleanliness by squirting every air or fuel orifice with Brakekleen (green can) and then compressed air.  I then final-checked orifices again, gently, with a wire or a small pick to ensure complete cleanliness.

I checked the floats for “floatation” by soaking them overnight in gas to see if they sunk.  During reassembly I paid particular attention to the float pins to ensure they were straight and true and that they slid smoothly into place.  I also checked the floats for smooth operation with zero binding through their travel.  (I did have to use a float pin from my spare set of carbs).

After that I gently blew out the carbs again with compressed air and carefully reinstalled everything with all new rubber seals and then measured floats as listed here:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=24311.0 (thanks Bodie).  I installed the float bowls and then carefully set the chokes to open/shut simultaneously.  I also paid particular attention to set evenly the height of all 4 slides exactly the same.

I also got some tiny vacuum tubing from Honda and installed it to replace the cracked old black vinyl tubes between carbs 1&2 and 3&4, as I reattached the carbs to the rack.

I cleaned air box and manifold externals but paid particular attention to internal sealing portion of intake rubber parts.  For appearance I also cleaned all clamps with solvent and a wire brush and then polished them along with any other metal part that should be“polished” with Blue Coral metal polish.

I then reinstalled the carbs and opened the petcock, but was taken aback slightly when 2 of the carbs started leaking out the overflow tubes.  But I then remembered where y'all told me to tap the bowls to loosen sticking floats (at the bottom of their travel in dry carbs) and it worked.  No leaking carbs and she runs nearly like a top.  She idled down solidly to 1200 RPM. 

Only two issues now are:

1.) when she’s warm and from a standstill there is a slight bogging right off the line (only under 2000 RPM).

2.) need to find someone good locally with a monometer to now help me synch these carbs on the bike.

:) :D ;D
CB350F
MT250

Offline Hush

  • Finally they realise that I am an
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,761
  • "Lady, I've heard it all before"!
Re: CB350F: On-bike carb diagnosis/repair?
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2008, 12:48:35 AM »
Well done that man, found a problem, asked for help, took good advice and solved problem..........ah that it should be so easy for all of us. ;D
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!

Offline mj_honda

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 122
Re: CB350F: On-bike carb diagnosis/repair?
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2008, 06:24:35 AM »
Glad you got it up and running. Here is another little tip that might come in handy.

I had one of my carbs leaking out of the overflow after a rebuild. It would start leaking after about 30 seconds at idle but would clear up when on the go. Tapping on the bowl didn't help and I sure didn't want to take them off the bike again.

I turned the fuel all the way off and ran the bike until it quit just so I could empty everything out of the carbs. After doing this twice it fixed the float. A couple hundred miles later it is still working great.

Offline kghost

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,853
  • www.facebook.com/RetroMecanicaAustralia
Re: CB350F: On-bike carb diagnosis/repair?
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2008, 07:12:33 AM »
Good news.

A sync of the carbs will remove SOME of the bog below 2000.

However it doesn't have alot of power there anyways.

7000 to redline is the sweet spot.  ;D
Stranger in a strange land

Offline Gordon

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,114
  • 750K1, 550K2
Re: CB350F: On-bike carb diagnosis/repair?
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2008, 09:56:23 AM »
Thanks for the update! :) 

I did notice one thing that you will probably have an issue with in the near future:  That would be the use of the vacuum tubing between the carbs.  Vacuum tube doesn't hold up to fuel exposure and will quickly harden and crack.  It needs to be made for use with fuel. 

Otherwise it sounds like you did a great job!  If everyone were that thorough when cleaning/rebuilding their carbs there would be a lot fewer headaches caused by them.

And definitely do the carb synch (but make sure the rest of the engine has been tuned up first).  It's one of those procedures you didn't really know you needed to do until after you do it.  It makes a huge difference at idle and low throttle range.

Offline frappy

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 51
Re: CB350F: On-bike carb diagnosis/repair?
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2008, 12:34:18 AM »
Yes, a carb synch is definitely on the near-term agenda.

Thanks for the tips and positive feedback, folks. Really nice!!  8) 

Quote
Gordon wrote:I did notice one thing that you will probably have an issue with in the near future:  That would be the use of the vacuum tubing between the carbs.

I'm gonna mention that to the old timer at Honda that gave me the tubing for this application and see what he says. 

The hardest part will be finding some tubing with such a small Inside Diameter that will work with fuel as Honda didn't seem to have a source. 

I sure would have liked to get it right the first time, but it won't be too big deal to change ... once I find the tubing... :-\
CB350F
MT250

Offline Hush

  • Finally they realise that I am an
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,761
  • "Lady, I've heard it all before"!
Re: CB350F: On-bike carb diagnosis/repair?
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2008, 12:41:18 AM »
Not sure weather this is relevant but I found one of my floats so jammed that it had worn a dent in the corner of the float.
This may have been from sitting for so long before I got it.
I sanded the dent off and that seems to have cured the problem.
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!