Author Topic: just how accurate can timing be set without a timing light ?  (Read 14654 times)

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Offline Gordon

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Re: just how accurate can timing be set without a timing light ?
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2008, 01:27:55 PM »
Am I the only one who's been crazy/stupid enough to adjust the timing while the bike is running?  Requires three hands or so to hold the strobe, loosen the screws, move the plate, and tighten the screws.  Only did this once but seemed to work ok.

mystic_1

That's how I do it, except I just loosen the plate screws enough to be able to move it but still tight enough to hold it in place.  That's also how I set the points gap.

Offline mystic_1

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Re: just how accurate can timing be set without a timing light ?
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2008, 01:31:30 PM »
Am I the only one who's been crazy/stupid enough to adjust the timing while the bike is running?  Requires three hands or so to hold the strobe, loosen the screws, move the plate, and tighten the screws.  Only did this once but seemed to work ok.

mystic_1

That's how I do it, except I just loosen the plate screws enough to be able to move it but still tight enough to hold it in place.  That's also how I set the points gap.

+1 I did the points gap also on that occasion, using a dwell meter.  Seemed pretty accurate.


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Offline markjenn

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Re: just how accurate can timing be set without a timing light ?
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2008, 02:27:03 PM »
The problem with using a dwell meter is that, unlike car with points and distributors, dwell affects timing on motorcycles.  So you can have dwell exactly on spec and the timing might be way off.  And timing is way more important than dwell.

Some background on terms and principles for those who don't know much about old-style points ignitions.  Dwell is basically the percentage of time the coils are receiving 12v current, measured as some number of degrees of crank (or cam if the points are cam driven) rotation.  The principle of a battery-coil ignition system is that the primary windings in the coils receive current for some time where they reach "saturation" and current flow stabilizes.  Then the points open and the sudden collapse of the magnetic field causes a huge voltage surge in the secondary windings, firing the spark plug.  The exact spot where the points open and the magnetic field collapses determines the timing.

With old cars with points ignition, dwell and timing were relatively independent.  You use a dwell meter to set points gap and ensure the coils received the correct amount of current to reach saturation.  (You could also just set points gap, but using a dwell meter is more accurate and easier.)  Then you timed the engine by rotating the distributor.  Points-gap/dwell and timing were independent adjustments.

Not so with our bikes.  When you vary the points-gap/dwell on a SOHC Honda (and almost all motorcycles with points ignition), you're directly affecting the timing because there is no downstream distributor to control timing - the plugs fire when the points open.  So while getting points gap within spec initially with a dwell meter is fine, this is just to get things roughly in spec - you have to check timing after setting points-gap/dwell.

Honda does provide some ability to independently adjust timing without affecting dwell by rotating the entire backing plate (with both sets of points), or on some models by providing either individual back plates for each set of points or having one set of points mount on an adjuster and the other be adjusted by the entire backing plate.  If you rotate the entire backing plate, you're affecting timing on both sets of points and if you rotate the backing plate on one set of points only, it only affects the timing for that one side.

So there are a lot of things to fiddle with.  My experience is that if you have high-quality OEM Honda points, you can simply do the following:

1.  Rotate the backing plate(s) to the center of their adjustments.
2.  Fit the points and set gap with feeler gauges.  This will generally get the timing close enough to be able to start the engine.
3.  Use a timing light to set idle timing by using the base plate(s), keeping in mind that the overall plate changes both sides.  If the bike doesn't have a separate base plate for one side, then set one side with the base plate and the other with points-gap but be sure to do it in this order.
4.  Check advanced timing.
5.  Confirm points gaps are within spec.

Almost all the time, with the baseplates in the middle of their ranges, you can get points-gap/dwell well within spec with correct timing.  But the key thing is that you always have to time the motor as the last step because changing points-gap/dwell affects timing.

I think inductive timing lights are the only way to go, but I'm tool junkie.  A ohm-meter or continuity light will work for low-speed timing, but you can't check advanced timing.  Eyeballing when points open/close?  Maybe this will get the engine running acceptably to some, but to me this would be like using vice-grips to remove bolts because you're too cheap to buy a proper wrench.

- Mark
« Last Edit: May 21, 2008, 02:29:30 PM by markjenn »

Offline bryanj

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Re: just how accurate can timing be set without a timing light ?
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2008, 10:46:42 PM »
Years ago I had an apprentice who tried to tell me it was impossible to get points gap correct without a dwell meter----took him to my Ford 3.0 ltr V6 and removed the contacts; filed and replaced them and gapped with feelers then timed by sight.

He got out his dwell meter and strobe to find the dwell was exactly in middle of spec and timing spot on mark.

Having booted him arround the car park several times i carefully explained that PRACTICE, EXPERIENCE and CARE will allways get things right whilst numbnuts needed backup
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Offline 754

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Re: just how accurate can timing be set without a timing light ?
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2008, 11:10:38 PM »
I pissed a few bikes and cars off with my bike. I used to set the gap with a feeler on stock Honda points, and set timing by watching it open by eye....

Sure used to bug a guy with a 78 F, that he could never catch me :D

it may not be the best way to do it, but i sure liked the results..
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Offline mystic_1

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Re: just how accurate can timing be set without a timing light ?
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2008, 11:30:31 PM »
I suppose the bottom line is,

It's not necessarily the tools, but the person wielding them that matters.

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Offline greenjeans

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Re: just how accurate can timing be set without a timing light ?
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2008, 05:22:24 AM »
Update.....5/22

I ended up replacing the plug wires and caps with new ones.  Re-checked the tappets & cam chain. 
Timed it as best I could again just using my test light.   I've put almost 2 tanks of gas through it now
and it really seems to be loosening up and running better.  I'm going to drain the oil and drill some additional
holes in the clutch basket this weekend (mine has none) as it is kinda hard to find neutral sometimes.

Starts 1st kick or with just a slight touch on the starter button.  For the most part it runs like a champ, 1st gear struggles just a bit from 1000-3500 rpms and then pulls like a train.  Other than that, it really has good power in the other gears.  These bikes are FAST & FUN.

It still is very cold-natured and takes a while to warm it up, but that's no biggy.  I still can't get it to idle
under about 1200 rpms - just kinda sounds loud (like chain noises ?) and very rough when the rpms get that low.

Are tachs alwasy accurate ?  I mean, could 1200 rpms on the tach be off, or lower than it reads ?  When I have
it idling at 1100-1200 rpms it sounds pretty smooth.  Not that I could tell what 1200  rpms sounds like by ear,
but it is quiet and seems lower than 1200 rpms as compared to some other bikes I've come across lately.

Thanks for all the help fellas.
Yep, I'm the kid that figured out how to put things back together...eventually.

Offline bryanj

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Re: just how accurate can timing be set without a timing light ?
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2008, 06:07:46 AM »
Maybe not set timing by eye on these but there is nothing wrong with putting a spare plug in the lead, resting it on the head and watching(or listening) for the spark
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

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Offline Soos

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Re: just how accurate can timing be set without a timing light ?
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2008, 06:27:50 AM »


Are tachs alwasy accurate ?  I mean, could 1200 rpms on the tach be off, or lower than it reads ?  When I have
it idling at 1100-1200 rpms it sounds pretty smooth.  Not that I could tell what 1200  rpms sounds like by ear,
but it is quiet and seems lower than 1200 rpms as compared to some other bikes I've come across lately.

Thanks for all the help fellas.


I'm guessing they can be a bit off yes.

I have a dyna2000 on my '79cb650 with the RPM limiter set at 6800.
The tach reads between 7200 and 7400. I am using the stock tachometer and not a digital one hooked to they dyna2000(yet).

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Offline Gordon

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Re: just how accurate can timing be set without a timing light ?
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2008, 06:33:17 AM »

I have a dyna2000 on my '79cb650 with the RPM limiter set at 6800.



6800?  What's the redline on that bike?

Offline greenjeans

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Re: just how accurate can timing be set without a timing light ?
« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2008, 07:11:30 AM »
I'd be curious to see how close I got just using a test light.  I'll probably pick up a timing light in the near
future, just so I have one.....I was just exited to finally get this thing running smooth enough to enjoy the
great weather we've been having lately.
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Offline Soos

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Re: just how accurate can timing be set without a timing light ?
« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2008, 08:41:22 AM »

I have a dyna2000 on my '79cb650 with the RPM limiter set at 6800.



6800?  What's the redline on that bike?

9500 or so, but it's being broken in with new(usedcb750) pistons.

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Offline SHORTROUND

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Re: just how accurate can timing be set without a timing light ?
« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2008, 09:05:05 AM »
you can but one at pep-boys for about $20. sometimes cheeper if they're on sale.

Offline brianzenk

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Re: just how accurate can timing be set without a timing light ?
« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2008, 03:52:41 PM »
Thanks Bill Silver for writing this about Honda points “Honda has found that the proper maximum gap is .012-.014" measured at the WIDEST point on the point cam. This gap determines the coil saturation time... it is also called point dwell in automotive circuits. The point gap determines how long the coil primary windings can saturate the coil with a magnetic field. If the gap is smaller the points stay closed longer, which makes a larger magnetic field for the coil. Wider gaps mean that the points have to open earlier, thus reducing the coil saturation time. If the coil saturation is not long enough then the output will be lower and you get a high speed misfire. Points that don't open wide enough can overheat because they are working all the time drawing current through the circuit. You set the gap using a feeler gauge. Once the gap is set, then you can move the backing plate so that the points just open at the F mark. Points opening causes the magnetic field to collapse in the coil inducing a high voltage spike that travels out the plug wire to the spark plug.”
The point gap setting for the cb550K is .012in - .016 in. I set the gap on my bike to .013. Prior to changing the points out that had been there 32 years the point gaps were .06in on cylinder 1-4 and .10in on cylinder 2-3. The bike ran great with pitted and burnt points. Using the light bulb method to determine timing is great if your battery has a full charge. Using an Ohm meter to determine when the points open seems to be a good method of finding that exact timing event with nothing on. The spark method would also work if you were stranded with out a meter in the middle of the desert. I did try adjusting the timing with the bike running and holding the timing light and a screw driver, probably an unsafe practice. I spent two days tinkering with it before I finally figured out how to do the static method as Clymer suggested. The timing light was a good way to check the other set of advance reference marks at 2500 RPMs.  All this is a weird form of fun.
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Offline mystic_1

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Re: just how accurate can timing be set without a timing light ?
« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2008, 05:08:23 PM »
All this is a weird form of fun.

Totally :D

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Re: just how accurate can timing be set without a timing light ?
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2008, 05:28:12 PM »
Just set your points as dwell changes timing, timing doesn't change point gap. All that is needed is a bulb with two leads soldered on it or a test light. When bulb just starts to flicker you are there. Piece of cake and it will run perfect.