Author Topic: Plug reading help  (Read 1360 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline KB02

  • Take it easy there, Sonny, I'm an
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,760
Plug reading help
« on: May 05, 2008, 06:31:17 PM »
2000 Ducati Monster 750. Carbureted. K&N air filter in the stock box. After market, "Racing" pipes.

I don't know. I think it's a little lean. It's not quite running so that it feels like its in tip top order yet. I had to rebuild the carbs over the winter. I ordered a jet kit for it. It came with all kinds of instructions and advise; most of which was trial and error work. Anyway, I tried staying a little low on my slow jet (stock) and think I may need to step it up one notch. What do you all think?
(Click the link for a bigger picture)
http://s152.photobucket.com/albums/s182/actorextreme/?action=view&current=plug.jpg
« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 06:32:58 PM by KB02 »
1978 CB750K Project
2000 Ducati ST2
...and a pedal bike

Join the AMA today!!

My project thread Part I: K8 Project "Parts Bike"
My project thread Part II: Finishing (yeah, right) touches on Project "Parts Bike"

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: Plug reading help
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2008, 06:45:24 PM »
Hope that's a water cooled bike.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline KB02

  • Take it easy there, Sonny, I'm an
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,760
Re: Plug reading help
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2008, 07:41:10 PM »
That would be an air cooled Duc.
1978 CB750K Project
2000 Ducati ST2
...and a pedal bike

Join the AMA today!!

My project thread Part I: K8 Project "Parts Bike"
My project thread Part II: Finishing (yeah, right) touches on Project "Parts Bike"

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: Plug reading help
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2008, 10:49:46 PM »
Plugs that white would sure make me nervous.  Especially if you are at high altitude now and go to sea level.

I speculate that your freer flowing air filter is making less vacuum in the carbs, so jets are flowing poorer than before.  And, your better scavenging exhaust is helping put more oxygen in the combustion chamber.
Both are arguments for larger jet sizes and/ or fuel metering increases.

I've no idea how this is done on Duc carbs, though.  Sorry.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline RRRToolSolutions

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,167
  • I love old Japanese bikes!
Re: Plug reading help
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2008, 04:42:59 AM »
Better get that corrected - way, way too lean/hot. You're near melt-down of the tip and piston top materials flying around the combustion chamber.

Here is the best darn site I've ever used for plug reading - You'll find color photos at the bottom for comparison.

Regards,
Gordon

http://www.4secondsflat.com/Spark_plug_reading.html


Kaws, Hondas, Yamahas, and Suzukis - especially Kaws

Offline KB02

  • Take it easy there, Sonny, I'm an
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,760
Re: Plug reading help
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2008, 05:01:43 AM »
Alright, bigger slow jet it is.

I've been running the same air/exhaust set up for years. The emulsion tubes wore out in the carbs and I had to replace them. The "Jet Kit" I bought for it came with titanium emulsion tubes (vs. stock brass tubes) and a wide variety of jets and few suggestions here and there along with several other "customer's set ups" and what worked for them. Most (if not all) of the customer's set up had one larger size slow jet. Since my problem before was the bike running too rich, I thought I'd try the stock slow jet.

I can change these out with the carbs still on the bike, but I have to remove the air box... you think that's hard to do on a SOHC?  ;)
1978 CB750K Project
2000 Ducati ST2
...and a pedal bike

Join the AMA today!!

My project thread Part I: K8 Project "Parts Bike"
My project thread Part II: Finishing (yeah, right) touches on Project "Parts Bike"

Offline RRRToolSolutions

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,167
  • I love old Japanese bikes!
Re: Plug reading help
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2008, 05:52:16 AM »
No - read the charts again - that plug shows too rich at low speed and too lean at the main. You have to read the text to understand-

No harm intended, but plug reading is very specific to the circuits.

Regards,
Gordon
Kaws, Hondas, Yamahas, and Suzukis - especially Kaws

Offline KB02

  • Take it easy there, Sonny, I'm an
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,760
Re: Plug reading help
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2008, 05:26:34 AM »
Well, after re-reading the text (admittedly, I only scanned it before) I still think it indicates a slightly lean idle circuit.

Quote
The Air/Fuel Map
Look at the porcelain and divide it into 3 areas, top, middle and bottom in about 1/3rds.

Top Area: This area is your idle circuit and for the racer real has very little meaning.  However if your car is a street driven vehicle then we need to attempt to get this portion to a dark gray/tan color by tuning the AFR with the Air Bleeds and the four corner Idle adjustments until we get a clean crisp idle and total combustion of the fuel at idle.  Keep in mind that the idle circuits are totally isolated from the rest of the carburetor and can be tuned with very minimal affect on the WOT position A/F Ratio.
1978 CB750K Project
2000 Ducati ST2
...and a pedal bike

Join the AMA today!!

My project thread Part I: K8 Project "Parts Bike"
My project thread Part II: Finishing (yeah, right) touches on Project "Parts Bike"

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: Plug reading help
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2008, 12:07:14 PM »
I'd be far more worried about mixtures when the bike is making power.  There are minimal forces and temps in the chamber at idle.  Combustion conditions are the most severe when under load at throttle positions higher than idle.

Your center electrode insulators are completely white as far into the spark plug as I can see in that picture.  This means combustion temps are very high, very deep into the plug.  These kind of temps do not occur with an air cooled motor at idle settings.  They occur when the chamber is making serious power and heat, faster than the spark plug and engine cooling fins can remove it, and thus there is electrode surface cool enough to allow deposits to form.  Such temps, far away from the combustion point of origin and closest to the heat dissipating surfaces, infer temps at the piston crown and electrode tips are near the limit of endurance.  Once these points encroach into the "glowing ember" region, you get pre-ignition, then detonation, then engine damage.  Premium fuels may save your motor as it is more difficult to ignite than regular.  But, if your CR is low enough to operate on regular fuel, you should make the upper throttle setting mixtures richer, so the chamber temps lower some.  Colder plugs may help, too, unless your cooling fins are already taxed to their heat transfer limit.  Have you driven this bike in hot weather, yet?  What is your air density?  (elevation and temp?)

It's your bike.  So, of course, do what you want.  But, don't say you weren't warned when something goes bang.

You can change you idle jet to get some soot onto the plugs at idle.  But, then at higher power settings the soot will burn off and the idle jet will not make much difference in chamber temps at those higher settings.

Good Luck!
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline KB02

  • Take it easy there, Sonny, I'm an
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,760
Re: Plug reading help
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2008, 04:51:58 AM »
Well, I put in the next size up idle jet last night and took it for a ride. It "Felt" much better. One thing I hadn't mentioned before was that I would get an occasional "miss" as I was just maintaining speed or idling. That miss is now gone and it runs much smoother.

The local elevation is under 400 ft. As is the most of my riding. I run high tes gas as that is what the owner's manual says I need to run.

I'll do some more plug readings once I get a chance to do some more ride testing, but I think it's getting better. (now I need to re-pack the pipes, too)
1978 CB750K Project
2000 Ducati ST2
...and a pedal bike

Join the AMA today!!

My project thread Part I: K8 Project "Parts Bike"
My project thread Part II: Finishing (yeah, right) touches on Project "Parts Bike"