Author Topic: My long-overdue Spark Advancer post...  (Read 18579 times)

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Offline HondaMan

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My long-overdue Spark Advancer post...
« on: May 09, 2008, 09:05:03 PM »
I know, I promised this 2 years ago, before I was enshrined in the Thoughts of Hondaman thingy...maybe this should be added to that, so it won't remain so open-ended.  :-[

Below is a pix of the 2 different spark advancers I referred to: the one on the left is the K1-K2 advancer, until late 1972-early 1973 (K3 series bike arrived), when the one on the right (manufactured by TEC) appeared. This later one remained in production until the end of the 750K series. I don't know if it is the same as the "F" bikes' advancers.

The left spring on the K2 unit is a little deformed from my rebending of the end, after cutting off 1/2 turn of the coils. It still pulls the weights fully closed, though. The K2 advancer is smaller, lighter, and has lighter weights, and the spin diameter of the weights is smaller by 2mm. It has smaller diameter wire in the springs (.030"), and the diameter of the spring itself is 1mm smaller, as compared to the K3-later version. The K3-later one has .036" diameter wire in the springs.

Sharp viewers will note the difference in the points cam index markings: they are NOT interchangable, but the springs and weights are. In fact, they are 180 degrees opposite each other in the cams.

You can tune your advancers with these tips: using the K3 weights on the K2 advancer will net 18 degrees advance, while vice-versa makes about 36 degrees advance angle, presuming you don't bend the stops in or out. Using the K3 springs on the K2 advancer will slow down the spark advance, peaking at around 3300-3500 RPM instead of the stock 2500 RPM. Vice-versa: the full advance comes on about 2000 RPM.

Another thing that's not immediately apparent: the K2 in this pix has the ramps "stoned down" for gentler opening of the points, while the K3 unit actually has steeper-than-before opening ramps. The former was done for my RR hi-RPM excursions, and WILL increase points wear unless you use the Transistorized Ignition because of the slow opening: but it will also make for much more solid sparks, with no points bounce, to the end of a stock tach. It idles poorly if you do this without electronic assist, too. Honda steepened the ramps to reduce points wear and increase electrical life while lowering the effective redline, at the same time they were shortening the valve guides and installing seals on the intake guides to increase the oil change interval (sales team at work, here...). The drag on the valves made the Warranty engineers worry about pistons and valves, so the steeper opening ramps, along with lighter points springs on Honda's own points, caused points bounce pretty reliably at about 9000 RPM. This became a cheap rev limiter for the conservative-minded engineers. We modified a LOT of things on the points systems to get past this artificial wall that was not there on the K0 bike.  ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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uptworedline

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Re: My long-overdue Spark Advancer post...
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2008, 09:42:31 PM »
are there any benefits of using the TEC ones over the stock advancers?

Offline mystic_1

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Re: My long-overdue Spark Advancer post...
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2008, 10:22:08 PM »
Wow what a timely post.  I was just looking at advancers yesterday.

I have a K0, they have a different advancer than the rest, don't they?  If so, how can I identify it.

thanks

mystic_1
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: My long-overdue Spark Advancer post...
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2008, 09:04:32 AM »
Wow what a timely post.  I was just looking at advancers yesterday.

I have a K0, they have a different advancer than the rest, don't they?  If so, how can I identify it.

thanks

mystic_1

The earliest sandcast K0 had a 450 Honda advancer plate with different weights and springs. They can be ID'd by looking for slots in the backing plate. The first "real" K0 plate was solid, except for a little hole near the 1-4 side, much like the K2 one above. The springs were lighter than the K2 above, and the opening ramps were slower, like my modified K2 unit. K0 advances then came in 2 distinct "flavors", the fast-advance (earlier ones) and slow-advance (later ones). These things changed a lot in the K0, and were a source of confusion to us Honda wrenches at the time.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: My long-overdue Spark Advancer post...
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2008, 09:05:35 AM »
are there any benefits of using the TEC ones over the stock advancers?

The TEC units, unmodified, reduce HP a litle and limit RPM above 9000. They start and idle better, though, because of the steeper ramps.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

eldar

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Re: My long-overdue Spark Advancer post...
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2008, 10:21:27 AM »
So what then do you think would be a "safe redline?

Offline HondaMan

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Re: My long-overdue Spark Advancer post...
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2008, 10:38:14 AM »
The simple answer to that is: whatever your valve springs will provide. That's sort of a whole different topic, though.

My K2 will easily reach 11,000 today (used to run at 14k peak), except the cam is advanced too far (about 6 degrees) to let it produce much HP above 8500 at the moment (a leftover from the 55 MPH speed limit days). I'm using stock springs, sandblasted in 2002, tested to be even, and with valve guide clearance of .0015" to .0018", using no seals, and the longer guides on the intake side. The clearance notches in the pistons have been deepened .010" to .015", and the seats have been recut about .005" deeper than new ones. There are .005" shims underneath the spring cups to compensate. And, all of my springs are .15" longer than stock, with stock wire strength (I've even forgotten where I got this set, it was in 1973, I think). They still have .025" coil bind clearance at full .335" lift, but my cam is worn down to where the max intake lift lobe is .303" (stock is .313"), some exhausts are only .288" (stock is .295"), so no problem there.  :-\  Terry sent me a new(er) cam last year, hope to install it this year. It will be fun to see what some added lift might do for it, with the hemi-ed head.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline mystic_1

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Re: My long-overdue Spark Advancer post...
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2008, 08:37:15 AM »
Here's the advancer from my diecast K0, date of mfg 2/70.  It is as you describe, same base plate as the K2 but different weights and the springs feel light compared to a K3(?) advancer that I have lying around.

On a side note, I notice that my weights have a coating of some sort that seems to be separating.  This this anything to worry about?

mystic_1
« Last Edit: May 11, 2008, 10:29:55 AM by mystic_1 »
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Offline 754

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Re: My long-overdue Spark Advancer post...
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2008, 11:40:40 AM »
Geez Eldar, looks like this year is gonna feel like you got a hotter cam..eh!!.................. :o
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eldar

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Re: My long-overdue Spark Advancer post...
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2008, 08:55:15 PM »
Cause of the "safe" redline? I will probably ride about the same.Maybe the next winter I will make some changes. I know most tachs show a lower then limit redline, I suppose contributed to keeping down warranty work, so I figured I had to ask what HM thought.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: My long-overdue Spark Advancer post...
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2008, 09:02:32 PM »
Here's the advancer from my diecast K0, date of mfg 2/70.  It is as you describe, same base plate as the K2 but different weights and the springs feel light compared to a K3(?) advancer that I have lying around.

On a side note, I notice that my weights have a coating of some sort that seems to be separating.  This this anything to worry about?

mystic_1

No, they used a cheesy "canodize" black oxide on them, which eventually peeled off. Yours are surprisingly unrusty!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline 754

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Re: My long-overdue Spark Advancer post...
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2008, 10:19:41 PM »
Re tach readings..
It dont much matter if it is accurate or not, once you determine the sweet spot you like to shift at, that is what you use..


 Would not matter if it was A-N or 1 -74...it just becomes a point on a dial..
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My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

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Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline markb

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Re: My long-overdue Spark Advancer post...
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2014, 09:42:13 AM »
I know this is an old post but I have questions about the early sandcast advancer.  Below are pictures of ones I have taken out of my sandcast engines.  The left one is from E100.  The right one is like I have from three later sandcasts.  The E100 one has the slots like mentioned by Hondaman.  But it has the centered tabs and the heavier weights like the K3-K4 advancers in the photo at the beginning of this thread.  I saw some 450 advancers on ebay and some had slots but they did not have the centered tabs like E100.  It almost seems like some kind of hybrid assembly.  I don’t think I’m going to able to save the one that was on E100 and maybe it wasn’t original anyway. Has anyone seen one like E100?



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Offline ekpent

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Re: My long-overdue Spark Advancer post...
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2014, 10:01:13 AM »
Looks like you have discovered another different part from early to later Sandcast maybe Mark. Bet the Guys are lovin' it on the Sandcast site as you dig through that bike.

Offline dave500

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Re: My long-overdue Spark Advancer post...
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2014, 11:42:04 AM »
I know this is an old post but I have questions about the early sandcast advancer.  Below are pictures of ones I have taken out of my sandcast engines.  The left one is from E100.  The right one is like I have from three later sandcasts.  The E100 one has the slots like mentioned by Hondaman.  But it has the centered tabs and the heavier weights like the K3-K4 advancers in the photo at the beginning of this thread.  I saw some 450 advancers on ebay and some had slots but they did not have the centered tabs like E100.  It almost seems like some kind of hybrid assembly.  I don’t think I’m going to able to save the one that was on E100 and maybe it wasn’t original anyway. Has anyone seen one like E100?




drop it in some watered down molasses for a fortnight.

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Re: My long-overdue Spark Advancer post...
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2014, 02:32:36 PM »
...Or drop in in some Evapo-Rust if you don't have any molasses around.
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Offline Whaleman

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Re: My long-overdue Spark Advancer post...
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2014, 02:40:03 PM »
I know I could save it if time and money was no object. The holes in the weights may need to be bushed if the gaps were too loose after removing the rust. Dan

DH

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Re: My long-overdue Spark Advancer post...
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2014, 05:52:52 PM »
...Or drop in in some Evapo-Rust if you don't have any molasses around.


My thoughts exactly fwiw. Good stuff, just check its progress periodically. Hope you are able to save it.

Offline kmb69

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Re: My long-overdue Spark Advancer post...
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2014, 01:26:08 PM »
I know this is an old post but I have questions about the early sandcast advancer.  Below are pictures of ones I have taken out of my sandcast engines.  The left one is from E100.  The right one is like I have from three later sandcasts.  The E100 one has the slots like mentioned by Hondaman.  But it has the centered tabs and the heavier weights like the K3-K4 advancers in the photo at the beginning of this thread.  I saw some 450 advancers on ebay and some had slots but they did not have the centered tabs like E100.  It almost seems like some kind of hybrid assembly.  I don’t think I’m going to able to save the one that was on E100 and maybe it wasn’t original anyway. Has anyone seen one like E100?
Mark,

Sorry, I have not had time to check and post until now. But I think the E100 advancer is ORIGINAL. Why you ask? Because it is identical (except for the oxidation) to my E69!!!

Keith


Offline markb

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Re: My long-overdue Spark Advancer post...
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2014, 01:34:02 PM »
OK then.  It looks identical to the later F2 ones too.  Is there any other markings on yours besides the timing marks?  I'm going to try to clean it up enough to see if there are any other markings.  Thanks for checking!
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Offline kmb69

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Re: My long-overdue Spark Advancer post...
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2014, 01:56:36 PM »
Not so sure that's what a F2 looks like. I have an original F2 bike that I will check when I can. I think 4pots1969 jumped to an incorrect conclusion. The picture in the CMSNL parts list may be, who knows, how old. The part number in the CMSNL listing is not unique to a F2. CMSNL is certainly NOT the last word on this kind of stuff.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: My long-overdue Spark Advancer post...
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2014, 04:35:47 PM »
Mark, I'd be interested in knowing if it has the 40+ degree advance angle of the other K0 bikes?
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline markb

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Re: My long-overdue Spark Advancer post...
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2014, 04:49:16 PM »
I'm not sure if it's 40 degrees but it's definitely the same as the three later sandcast ones.  I put one of the later ones on the crank and lined up the 1-4 T mark with the mark on the cases.  Then after I cleaned up just enough to see the same marks on the E100 advancer l put it on the crank and the T mark lined up exactly.
1969 CB750 sandcast #97 restored - Sold Restoration thread link
1969 CB750 sandcaxt #576 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #1553 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #1990 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #5383 restored - Sold Restoration thread link
1970 CB750 K0 restored - Sold
2010 H-D Tri Glide Ultra Classic (Huh?)

Offline HondaMan

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Re: My long-overdue Spark Advancer post...
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2014, 05:02:35 PM »
Cool, thanks for checking it!
 :)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline markb

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Re: My long-overdue Spark Advancer post...
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2014, 05:50:31 PM »
So do you think that makes it an old version or newer version?
1969 CB750 sandcast #97 restored - Sold Restoration thread link
1969 CB750 sandcaxt #576 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #1553 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #1990 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #5383 restored - Sold Restoration thread link
1970 CB750 K0 restored - Sold
2010 H-D Tri Glide Ultra Classic (Huh?)