Topic: '77 550K -Clutch will not disengage-

[gretjenhelene]

Well, I've read through a lot of the other posts; "clutch issues", "CLutch!!! What am I missing" and "What am I doing wrong"... so thanks already for lots of good advice!       Here's my story with a few more questions;

1977 550K
The clutch will not disengage.
When the ignition is off, I can move the gears through 1N2 but not 345
When the ignition is on, it grinds into 1st and so forth.
When the bike is on and in gear, I hold in the clutch and the rear wheel still spins, and the idle acts like it's going to fail without a little gas.

I adjusted the clutch cable and screw by the book as well as what seemed to work better, but not it didn't fix it. -All on the center stand-

I took out the plates and friction discs and- there was plenty of rust to be removed- wet sanded them down to shine again...

1st Q: Should I even take the time to measure the plates and reuse or should I just assume they are toasted and get new ones?

-I will measure them in the case that they are keepers-

When I put them back in I noticed that each plate/disc had a round-edged side and a sharped edge on the other side. I believe that all the rounded edges were facing away from the motor.

2ndQ: does the rounded edge matter for direction?  facing toward or away from the motor?

(Also, Just to clarify- the oil ridges on each disc are vertical, not diagonal and therefore do not have direction I presume?)

A friend told me that there are a few pins inside the clutch that could be disfunctional, so I ordered new ones, but I couldn't find pins or anything that looked similar in the clutch area. Would these pins be inside the transmission and therefore I might have to open the engine to find them? Anyone have experience with these pin-problems?

I noticed that people have spoken about measuring the springs- I'm assuming this refers to the springs under the pressure plate and not the springs that work with the gear arms? And I haven't looked/found measurement length for springs- any suggestion on where to find these lengths.

Also, under the clutch cover, loosely wrapped around the inside arm (which makes adjustments from cable to cam ramp engagement), there was a spring loosely wrapped around the arm and dangling two possible pressure-point arms. However I couldn't figure out what this spring would do, and there wasn't any signs of wear and tear showing possible usages.

3rd Q; any idea  if this spring might control the ability of the arm? how?

On another note, She won't idle.
I adjusted valves, and filed down the points (may try new ones soon). I changed the spark plugs because somebody before me thought variety might be fun?!?
I tried to match the timing but couldn't get the idle down to 1,000-1,200 to test.
I'm thinking about cleaning out the carbs next.

I guess that is all for now- if you've got answers, pass them along- thanks!
I was told "TooTired" might have some good answers- Are you out there "TooTired" ?

[TwoTired]

At times I am Too Tired but usually I am TwoTired. 

When the ignition is off, I can move the gears through 1N2 but not 345

If it's on the center stand, you should be able to get into the higher gears by rocking the rear wheel back and forth.  This get things lined up in the trans for engagement.

I took out the plates and friction discs and- there was plenty of rust to be removed- wet sanded them down to shine again...

Rust?  Dang it's oil bathed.  If there is rust on those, what does that say about other engine internals? [shuddder]

I don't think you want the steels to shine.  That would be slippery.  Some recommend bead blasting.
Check the steels for warpage.
The frictions should be no less than 2.4mm (0.0945 in) Stated on page 122 of the Honda service manual.

Service limits for clutch components are also on Pg 141 of the Honda Shop manual.
Clutch spring free length, 36.8mm std. 35.4mm service limit.
Spring strength, 22.1~33.2 @ 23mm (227.84~238.6 @ 0.90 In.)
Clutch plate warp 0.3mm Service limit (0.011)

2ndQ: does the rounded edge matter for direction?  facing toward or away from the motor?
(Also, Just to clarify- the oil ridges on each disc are vertical, not diagonal and therefore do not have direction I presume?)

I don't know if this matters.  I wouldn't think so, though.  I never paid attention to that in particular.  I just try to put things back the way the factory had them.

A friend told me that there are a few pins inside the clutch that could be disfunctional, so I ordered new ones, but I couldn't find pins or anything that looked similar in the clutch area. Would these pins be inside the transmission and therefore I might have to open the engine to find them? Anyone have experience with these pin-problems?

I'm not sure of the reference.  But, maybe he was talking about the pins on the shift drum.  That's inside, split the cases work.  I'd wait to see how it shifts before cracking the cases apart.

Also, under the clutch cover, loosely wrapped around the inside arm (which makes adjustments from cable to cam ramp engagement), there was a spring loosely wrapped around the arm and dangling two possible pressure-point arms. However I couldn't figure out what this spring would do, and there wasn't any signs of wear and tear showing possible usages.

I think you are talking about the clutch lever spring.  (See page 122 shop manual)  The arm spring rests on the clutch adjusting lever, to reduce wear on the clutch actuating rod end, I expect.

On another note, She won't idle.

Most common cause is plugged pilot jets in he carbs.  These are pressed into the carb body as the EPA didn't want end users to put in bigger ones.  Anyway, you must yank these out, clean them, and the passageway behind it in the carb body, and verify the slow air jet , pilot jet, Idle mixture screw, and carb throat delivery hole will all pass fluids between them.  Unscrew the main jet and emulsion tube while you're in there, too, for a cleaning.  The 77's PD carbs use 14.5 mm for a float height. 
The Clymer manual is good for blowing raspberries at.  Somewhere on this site is a PDF of the Honda shop manual.  I saw it earlier today, but forget where it is.  Probably in he FAQs?

Cheers,

[gretjenhelene]

tHANKS TwoTired- I'll work on it a bit and keep posting- Tomorrow I have the day off.

.g.

[neil young]

heres the 550 shop manual.....good luck
http://www.sohc4.net/files/HSMCB500550.pdf
the good thing about this  PDF file is that you can left click on what your looking for in the index and it brings you to the topic without having to scroll to it

[gretjenhelene]

Well, things are improving ... a little carb cleaner helped the idle, although I'm still going to clean out the carbs by hand.
Miraculously the starter button works again- i tinkered with the electrical cables.

But while I'm buying parts (new clutch plates, springs, and gasket) I thought I'd do something about the head oil leak...

There is a flooding leak coming from the left side of the head gasket- but someone told me to also change the "O-Rings" while I'm in there.

Which o-rings would these be? The piston rings? I have looked on Old Bike Barn, Bike bandit, Bettencourts and Chapperal without finding anything related. Can anyone speak to this? And would these be sold individually or will I have to buy an entire gasket/o-ring set?

[TwoTired]

There is an oil passage at each end of the cylinder block that feeds the cam and rockers.  In the same plane as the head gasket, are o rings that seal this passage where the head mates to the cylinder block.  It's a high heat area and the oring deteriorates with time and temp.  Lean running engines, possibly due to clogged fuel jets, run hotter and advance the hardening/cracking of these orings, which can then no longer contain the oil pump pressure.  They at first weep, and then get worse.

The orings come with a top end gasket set from Honda.

Cheers,