Topic: Tried some things- oil light still on?!?! pics available Also probs with others.

[JAG]

Thanks guys.. I really do appreciate it!

I'll give it a shot.

JAG

[JAG]

Well to check the head is getting oil you could run the bike and remove one of the tappet covers on the valve cover...if you see oil flicking around then you are getting oil to to the head and you know the pump is working. Easy no?

good luck
Andy

Okay, I was going to attempt to re synch the carbs, because I was told from a buddy that the sluggishness from take off was probably due to getting to much fuel, and I may need to lower the slides a bit. Although it is already very hard to start cold so it seems to me that it isn't getting any fuel.

Anyways, decided to try out what Andy said and take off the tappet covers while it's running.  It's definitely "wet" inside there, but there isn't any oil flailing about by any means.. So I guess this may mean I need a oil pump, I am not entirely sure.

ON a side note, I have yet to adjust the valve tappets, I'm a bit leary of it. Is there a tell tell sign when riding, or idling if whether or not they need to be adjusted? Like excessive noise, or something of the sort to let someone know they're off a bit???

[edbikerii]

If you're not sure, just adjust them.  It is really easy and shouldn't take more than 20 minutes or so.

Well to check the head is getting oil you could run the bike and remove one of the tappet covers on the valve cover...if you see oil flicking around then you are getting oil to to the head and you know the pump is working. Easy no?

good luck
Andy

Okay, I was going to attempt to re synch the carbs, because I was told from a buddy that the sluggishness from take off was probably due to getting to much fuel, and I may need to lower the slides a bit. Although it is already very hard to start cold so it seems to me that it isn't getting any fuel.

Anyways, decided to try out what Andy said and take off the tappet covers while it's running.  It's definitely "wet" inside there, but there isn't any oil flailing about by any means.. So I guess this may mean I need a oil pump, I am not entirely sure.

ON a side note, I have yet to adjust the valve tappets, I'm a bit leary of it. Is there a tell tell sign when riding, or idling if whether or not they need to be adjusted? Like excessive noise, or something of the sort to let someone know they're off a bit???

[Bodi]

If the tappets are too loose, they make a clackety noise. Too tight and they're nice and quiet but the valves may not close fully = loss of power and burned valves & seats.
Remove the pump by the three bolts visible outside the screen circle. Don't mess with the four philips screws (2 in and 2 out of the screen).
I think you should have two dowels and three O-rings for the three connection ports, the two close together getting the dowels.
There's a 14mm hex cap on the side. Remove it. Underneath is a spring and the pressure relief valve.The spring should be about 38mm long and the valve insert and the hole should be clean and the insert should slide in freely and close the ports completely. If this sticks open or the spring is broken or substituted with something weaker you get basically exactly what you describe. The valve limits oil pressure to about 60psi... but with cold oil it's incapable of flowing enough to do that so when stuck open you have a hydraulic tachometer oil pressure gauge... you will get at least 60psi at higher RPM dropping very low at idle if it sticks open with the high RPM reading dropping as the oil warms and thins out.
Take out the three philips screws on the triangular cover and remove that. Underneath you see the engine pump rotor set. Notice there's a dot mark on the inner and outer rotors, these show the sides that should go up. Slide them out and the drive pin through the shaft should slide out and be removed: now you can pull from the gear and take the scavenger rotor set out. Same deal with the dots. The dots don't have to align, the inner rotor walks around inside the outer.
Inspect the outer edge of the outer rotor, ends of both rotors, and the outer diameter and inside surface of the housing as well as the inner faces of the caps. These should be pretty smooth: some scoring is normal but not extreme abrasion. You can check the outer rotor to housing clearances with feeler gauges. End clearance measurement requires plastigauge. The scavenger rotors can be pretty ratty and still pump oil to the tank... the engine rotor set is the important one.
Look at the working surfaces of the inner and outer rotors. If they are really badly ground up, you will get pressure loss. You can try and measure the clearance from inner lobe to outer rotor but I haven't managed to figure out how.
The two bolt cover is the anti-backflow valve. I don't know how this could drop oil pressure but you may as well look at it, the rubber seal face should look good and it should slide freely. A leak here wet-sumps the engine after a long sit.
There's a gasket between the oil pump body and the mounting plate... if this has blown out you might get enough of a leak to drop pressure with thin oil. I don't know if the gasket is available, though.
That's pretty much it for oil pump. If you don't find any obvious trouble, maybe an oil gallery has been worn into inside the engine? I don't know if the 750 grinds a loose cam chain into the gallery... anyone?

[JAG]

Wow..  Very indepth and descriptive..  Thanks so much Bodi..  Since I have those descriptions I'll drain out my fresh oil and have go at it!!

I tried to take a picture of the valve tappet, but it was to dark. Like I said before there is (oil) moisture there, but while the engine was running, and I even revved it, no oil shot up and hit me in the eye. Of course I don't know if it is actually supposed to have that much pressure or not? Should there be oil flailing out if revved and the tappet cover off??

Any ideas??

[andy750]

Oil shouldnt be spurting out even with tappet cover off but if its wet in there then likely you are ok and pump is working to some degree. But given the past history of the bike you should question why the oil pump was replaced in the first place.

If I were you Id set the valve clearances (after checking timing is spot on) and then change oil/filter, adjust camchain and then ride it. If sluggish symptons persist think about the carbs (most likely) and jets. Then run it for 300 -500 miles and check oil filter again to make sure no big pieces of metal are there. Anyway thats what I would do. if you had no oil getting to the head it wouldnt get past 5-15 miles before it siezed.....

good luck!
Andy

[gary-stidham]

have you pulled your oil pump odd the pressure relief valve could be stuck open or the spacing on the gears on the pump could be to great to produce a good pressure    just replace the pump

[JAG]

Just getting back from a vacation in the Mountains...

I haven't got around to checking the oil pump yet. The most I did was take out the screen to make sure it wasn't clogged when I switched to the 20w50- thinking it would help allieve all these problems...

If it's just a pressure relief valve, could it just be replaced or adjusted to work properly?

Like I said before I haven't tackled adjusting the tappet clearance yet. But I'll do all the things you suggest andy750. If there are pieces of metal that collect in the oil filter, what would that suggest? And what can you do to fix it?


With bodi's guidance that was given I'm going to pull it off and have a look at it more closely..  I'll post some pics if I have any questions, or get lost some where..

If I do get a oil pump how much do they usually set you back? And would it be okay to pick up a used one off of ebay?

[bryanj]

new one dont exist any more, I still say get a pressure gauge that maxes at 80psi and check pressure agin, if its low remove pump and check relief valve, if thats ok you either pull motor and do a strip/check/rebuild OR ride it till it goes bang and in the meantime find another motor and re-build that

[JAG]

The gauge shows pressure 5psi, when the engine is revved to 1800rpm. Then Oil light goes out...  How do I fix this to get the engine and oil pressure to work at 5psi, @1200rpms??

Would this be a problem in the relief valve sticking??

 Also I must be a complete idiot, because I cannot figure out how to adjust valve tappets. I still don't know why and how this has anything to do with my oil pressure, and everyone I have ever talked to about adjusting the valve clearance- they knew that they needed to, because the valves were clacking around.. Mine is not doing this. But at any rate I see that everyone says to start with cam chain:

"""How do I adjust my camchain?

Each model engine has its best method. The 750 is the easiest. It is done without the engine running. Simply turn the crankshaft to TDCC #1, then turn it about 15 degrees farther (in the running direction). At this point, the mechanical advancer's spring retaining pin will be close to the crankcase mark. Loosen the cam chain tensioner locknut and bolt, then carefully retighten both. """"

Is this talking about the #1 cylinder being at top dead center? If so does this mean I have to take off the #1 tappet cover to make sure it's up at the very top of it's stroke?

After that a person can adjust the valve tappets. Getting my info from http://www.salocal.com/sohc/tech/vlvadj/vlvpg2.htm it says to::

"""Open the points cover and turn the crankshaft clock-wise with a large adjustable wrench, or better, a 23mm socket.  In this example, I'm going to adjust the #4 exhaust valve by turning the crankshaft until #1 exhaust valve opens and stops moving.  Continue turning the crankshaft a couple more degree, hopefully, finding the middle of the top of the lobe.  If the valve starts to rise, it's ok up to about 1/32 of and inch, but no further.""

Which valve is he talking about rising? #1 or #4? What is the top of the lobe~ TDC?

[bryanj]

Like i said pray its the relief valve, if it aint your engine isnt going to last long.

Now pistons 1 & 4 rise together, likewise 2 & 3 So

With all valve caps off find the "T" mark for 1 & 4 rock the crank backwards and forwards arround this mark using the big socket

Looking at the valves on cylinders 1 & 4 one cylinder will have the valves moving the other one wont----adjust the ones that aint moving, rotate the crank 1 full turn and the ones you adjusted will now be moving so adjust the others.

Same procedure for 2 & 3 using the "T" mark for 2 & 3.

Best way to adjust cam chain is to loosen tensioner lock nut and bolt then whilst holding pressure on the crank via the big socket so that the crank is just about to turn lock up the tensioner lock bolt then the nut.

[JAG]

Okay. That sounds easy enough. I'll give it a go this afternoon.

I am also picking up a 100psi gauge on the way home. Grainger seems to not have an 80psi one, but I think a 60psi difference is definitely a better way to see where the needle lies at operating temperatures..

Is there any schematics that show this relief valve? Or can I simply follow Bodi's directions and be able to find it easy enough. Will I be able to see or know whether or not it is the relief valve sticking open? Will it look a certain way?

I'll take a picture of it, if I indeed find it, and let you guys be the judge.

I apologize for my ignorance, and I appreciate all the help, and you guys being patient, as well as indepth with me. I suppose I kind of need it spelled out to me!

[Kevin D]

Heres a couple of oil pump photos for you JAG. The relief valve cap is pointing right at you in the 209 photo and pointing to the top in the 208.


I had trouble with the leak stopper, which is shown disassembled in 208, but thats a different story.

[JAG]

Okay great! Thanks for the pictures Kevin..

I finally got another pressure gauge, unfortunately it's not an 80psi, but it's 100psi. Still a world of difference when it comes to those lower psi ratings.

I took it around the block a few times to make sure I was getting accurate readings. And sure enough it is idling at 5psi (give or take a few) at 1400rpms. So I know there is pressure there but the oil light remains on until revved past 1800rpms.

It's still hard as hell to start it cold ever since i changed over to the 20w50.

I'm going to tackle the relief valve as soon as it cools off, and send some pictures of it when I pull it out. I am assuming there will be a definite understanding of whether or not it will be stuck or not, due to debris or what not. I am hoping that this is the case.

[andy750]

When I turn my K2 or K4 on the 100 psi gauge records 60 psi straight away. So if you are showing 5 psi then as others have indicated you do have an oil pressure/flow problem. Good luck with the next part!

keep us posted,
cheers
Andy

[JAG]

no it goes straight to 60psi from a cold start. it shows 5psi when it gets warmed up fully..

Any reason why it is so hard to get to start??

[andy750]

Ah I see well then thats not a bad sign of 60psi on start up! Shows your pump is working! (unless someone chimes in otherwise).

As for the cold start hard to say....you are using the choke right? What size of jets do you have? Oddly enough I found when I changed the size of my main jets from 110s to 115 the K2 started so much better. But then saying that the K4 with stock 110s starts first push of the button every day!. Also check your battery/fluid level/charge. Another factor- I have an AGM battery.

cheers
Andy
 

[JAG]

My jets are at 115. I think the factory size is 105.

The battery fluid level is right between the high and low levels, right where it should be, on each one of the cells..

Here is a picture of the spring, that I'm thinking I'm supposed to check... (Correct me if I'm wrong.) It's clean and the "chamber" it fits inside is nice and clean as well.. As Bodi described it, the spring is supposed to be 38mm long. I can't read mm's but here it is anyways ..

What do you guys think??

[JAG]

oh and I do use the choke..  It just seems like it is not getting any gas.. I sync'ed the carbs and all the needles are aligned correctly..

the #1 cylinder pops (air I presume) every once and awhile now, when I am trying to get it to start. Is it flooding??

Also when it finally does start, blue smoke flies out of the exhaust for awhile. I think due to the worn valve guides, and oil seeping down into it. But once it burns off, it subsides.. I guess it's either that or worn piston rings..

What do you guys think??

[JAG]

Here is the relief valve??

There is nothing seemingly wrong with it. Except for a shoulder/groove around the head of it that looks like it is missing a o-ring/gasket??

Anyone know?

Other than that it looks great to me..

[JAG]

took the oil pump out, took apart the housing that contained the other gear/rotors..  There was some slight abrasions but nothing to sound alarms..

Noticed the screen wasn't snapped in all the way on one side. Don't think that could cause any problems..

Other than that it looks like a perfect oil pump..

All I've done is brought more questions than answers... 

Going to mess with the tappets now via bryanj advice, and see how they're doin'..

[edbikerii]

Did you measure the clearances between the rotor gear and the housing with a feeler gauge?  Are they within spec according to the manual?

took the oil pump out, took apart the housing that contained the other gear/rotors..  There was some slight abrasions but nothing to sound alarms..

Noticed the screen wasn't snapped in all the way on one side. Don't think that could cause any problems..

Other than that it looks like a perfect oil pump..

All I've done is brought more questions than answers... 

Going to mess with the tappets now via bryanj advice, and see how they're doin'..

[JAG]

Well, I don't have a manual Do you know what the measurements are supposed to be?

I adjusted all the valve tappets. I don't know how bad they were off, because it took me awhile to figure out how to do it to begin with. Once I figured out, what was what, and what measurement was for which stroke, it was a breeze.

After that, I hooked back up the sync gauge and adjusted accordingly. The tach is set at 1400 rpms and the oil light isn't on, if I back off the throttle screw down to 1200rpms however, it does come on. So in theory I belive my tach is off a few hundred rpms. oil pressure gauge stills shows 5-6psi.

Only problem is there is that slight fluttering/popping sound coming out of the exhaust again (running with no mufflers) All the AMS are set a quarter of a turn out, due to A)not having mufflers and B) running with pods. But I'll play with them a little tomorrow and see if they subside, if the Air Mixture Screws is indeed the reason why it's popping again. It's not bad, but it IS there. Any other suggestions there?

I was running out of time with the syncing due to having not much gas left. The syncing is definitely a pain in the arse, once you move one they all move, and I had to keep playing with the throttle screw to keep the rpms up. The slides after tightened down only visibly show one thread (or so) per slide at the top. 

The true test is taking it out tomorrow during the day and see how it performs..

Anything else I should have a look at? The timing again perhaps?

Atleast the oil light doesn't stay on at idle, or so I think, until revved past 1800rpms anymore. That was the goal of all of this. Hopefully on the test ride tomorrow none of the demons will return.

Thanks for all yalls help. Couldn't have done it without you. Hopefully we got it figured out, have ourself a pat on the back and a frosty brew to celebrate. 

until tomorrow

JAG

[edbikerii]

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[seaweb11]

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