Topic: Tried some things- oil light still on?!?! pics available Also probs with others.

[JAG]

what do you mean times up??

[JAG]

Pumps not holding pressure..

Ran fine until warm. Once it got warm, I let it get up to 5K a few times.. After that running at 55mph 3200 or so rpms gauge only showing 16-17psi..
Then at idle tach says 1400 rpms, it MAY show 2-3psi, and oil light back on...


Don't know what else to do, I am so friggin frustrated.

[edbikerii]

Did you measure the gaps in the pump per the instructions in the manual?  What were the results?

Pumps not holding pressure..

Ran fine until warm. Once it got warm, I let it get up to 5K a few times.. After that running at 55mph 3200 or so rpms gauge only showing 16-17psi..
Then at idle tach says 1400 rpms, it MAY show 2-3psi, and oil light back on...


Don't know what else to do, I am so friggin frustrated.

[bryanj]

Those pumps are phenominally reliable, sorry i suspect more that you have engine damage such as crank wear that is dropping the pressure

[JAG]

I never could find the gap measurements. Does anyone know what they are supposed to be??

I took my oil pump back apart today, looked at the rotors inside and they looked like they were all chewed up. There was a lot of gouges/scaring inside of it. I don't know how it could happen, due to the fact that there is oil always running through it, unless there was a lot of trash floating through it. (Noting the picture I posted up awhile back that showed a very badly looking oil filter) Again there is absolutely no metal chips or flakes inside or around the oil filter either.

At any rate, I got another oil pump from a friend of mine, and when I went to hook it up, I cracked off one of the bolts off in the hole..  Sigh.. Just when I thought things couldn't get any worse. Tried to use an "ease out" to get the snapped bolt out, and SNAP, the ease out thing broke off in there as well.. Geez..

(I did inspect just one of his rotors, the first one I can get to with the top off, and his looked a world of difference than mine, very smooth, so I didn't think to go digging into any deeper.)

I went ahead and tighten it on up there with the other two bolts to see what it would do, and it did the same exact thing.. 

I started the bike up for the first time since yesterday, so the bike should have been cold. The pressure only jumped to 24psi. Not 60psi, like it usually does. Once the engine warmed up, and the rpms increased back up to 1400rpms and the gauge showing 5psi, I "babied" it around the block a few times. At 3K rpms, it barely rose past 20psi and when I came back to the house the pressure gauge flickered on the peg, showing at times 2psi.... so I shut her down and cussed a bit.

I don't believe one bolt could effect oil pressure to the degree that it wouldn't show any pressure at all. And the shape I believe this other pump to be in, I would have believed in theory that it would have shown some improvement, but that wasn't the case.

I was thinking about putting some "form a gasket" jbweld or something to that nature around the broken bolt hole, to allow for a tighter fit, but I don't want to do that if the pump doesn't seem to be working any better.'

If it IS in fact some sort of "crank wear" what would that entail, and what would be involved in trying to get that sorted out and fixed?

And again if anyone knows that measurements for those gaps and how to exactly measure it, I would be greatly appreciative.

[bryanj]

One bolt will affect it a lot as the cover end gap to rotor is critical!

The casing is us now anyway so break it up to get the rotors out and transfer them to your casings to see what happens

[JAG]

I'm not exactly sure what you are saying, but I believe you think I damaged one of the Screws containing the rotor housing...  I didn't...  I snapped off one of the Bolts that hold up the whole pump up to the bottom side of the engine.

Is there any hope for that?

[Hush]

Blond moment there Jag?
Man that oil filter was just butt ugly, the white stuff will be water in the oil all right but that could be condensation if she has been sitting a while.
Now everybody repeat after me "change the oil, change the filter"!
Best of luck with your wee oil pressure problem Jag, look on the bright side of all this, you will know your bike intimately when you have finished..........Hush.

[JAG]

Best of luck with your wee oil pressure problem Jag, look on the bright side of all this, you will know your bike intimately when you have finished..........Hush.

Hahaha, that's an understatement. I've had my hands all in this ole girl, we are very intimate

It was definitely a blonde moment, turning that bolt so far that it snapped inside, and not being able get it out.

[gary-stidham]

just replace the oil pump  it will solve all of your problems   if it doesn't their is something vary wrong with the motor and will need to be torn part

[JAG]

So will it be okay to only hold up the pump by two bolts? Or should it be jb welded or something??

[edbikerii]

Job worth doing?  Then it is worth doing right.  Get the bolt out, drill it out and use a heli-coil if you need to.  Then replace all the bolts with new.  Either they are somehow defective (old & rusty?) or you have the strength of a gorilla and don't know it.

[JAG]

I'm about to drain the oil back out, get the other pump out and try to get it out.

So as far as the helicoil goes, I should drill out the snapped bolt, get the hole clean, insert helicoil and put in new bolt? I've never had to use a helicoil, I usually am able to get the bolts out..

As far as the old pump, I took some pictures of some of the rotors..

[Kevin D]

JAG, its 0.014" between rotors, and between rotor and case. Make sure those pump mounting o-rings are good, too.

I had some trouble with the one of the oil pump mounting dowels. It fit in the engine case OK but didn't fit the pump very well.

[JAG]

I'm actually having trouble with one of my dowels as well. And it's doing the exact same thing. I just assumed that after tightening it all down that it would seal just fine. Do you believe that having that problem would still cause it not to seal up very well i.e., still not allowing it to hold pressure?

Thanks for the measurements, I'll check it out.

[Kevin D]

Take a look at the height of the three dowels. Notice the one on the right is higher? That dowel has a deeper recess in the engine case and no recess in the pump - at least on my K1 it does. I tried to force fit it and it jammed up the leak stopper valve below it. You need a good seal here to keep all of that supply pump output going to the bearings and top end. If the dowels are roughed up or out of round either replace 'em or file/sand down the rough spots so you have a nice slip fit, the oring around the outside - and all 3 bolts holding it in place.

When assembling it, I put that particular dowel in the engine case with a little vaseline to hold it and the oring in place.

Your pump rotors look about like mine - take a look in my gallery/album at the piece of wire that was in my screen and trying to go through the pump. Some ground up bits of it made it to the filter, which is where I found it. That recent episode prompted my engine rebuild.

[JAG]

Wow that is a lot of debris flying around through there!!

On both mine, and the the other oil pump I took off the other engine, I didn't see anything like that.

I'm thinking that after fixing the dowel, which I think is okay. every time I pull the pump, that larger one stays with the engine and doesn't come out with the pump. So with that into consideration, it being longer than the other ones, is the reason for that, i.e. staying with the motor, right or atleast having the ability to travel farther into the enigine?

And two, fixing that snapped bolt, with a helicoil, and it still doesn't hold pressure, than it's definitely crank wear, and the block is no good.

Which brings me to my new question. This other engine that I have has been sitting outside for a few months so there is no way of knowing what kind of crap has made it's way through it, especially water due to rain. Does anyone have any knowledge about working with something like this? I was thinking I was going to try and hook it up and see if it even turns over, if not maybe using some PBlaster or other penetrating lubricant and allowing it to sit and see if that frees anything up. My biggest concern however is rust. My good friend wasn't smart enough to atleast cover the motor, so for the past few months there is no telling what it has endured, but atleast I know when he had it, it ran like a charm, and ATLEAST had oil pressure. Maybe I'll be able to ride with that one until winter, and rebuild his engine.

Also I read in the old shop manual about the oil pressure at 3-3.5rpms, should be at or more than 40psi.? Does that seem accurate?

Off to go drain oil and look at everything again. I think at this time, I am just going to grab his engine, which only had like 22,000 miles, and work with his. I don't believe I am going to be able to get that bolt out, ane even if I did, I don't think it will still hold pressure

Any other thoughts would be greatly appreciated..

And Kevin, thank again, I'll make sure I don't have that dowel turned upside down or anything. The dowels, were nice and smooth, no abrasion whatsoever, and the rings looked brand new, as they were a shiny bright blue color.

[Kevin D]

fixing the dowel

that larger one stays with the engine

longer than the other ones

Sounds like your dowels are ok, and all three are alike.

orings looked brand new, as they were a shiny bright blue color

My orings are all black, and I think they are nitrile rubber - oil resistant.

a lot of debris flying around through there!!

Oil pan hadn't been dropped for a looooong time. The wire was the extra item.

[JAG]

I called a few machinist places, even one that builds automotive engines here in town, and the owner said that with having the "ease out" stuck in there, that it would be next to impossible to get IT out AND the busted bolt. Due to the fact that the "ease out" and bolt are both made of steel/ harder metal, than that of the aluminum.

Both of the places said that it would basically be more trouble than what it's worth.

And again, I don't know if I indeed have pump issue, I may have extensive crank wear, so know matter what I do to the pump, or spend a hundred dollars or so getting the bolt out, it will be all for nothing if the engine is worthless.

So since I am not made of money, nor can I get it out myself. I have decided to get a heavy duty sealant to see if I can indeed seal the part where the bolt would go. If it works, and I do have oil pressure, I'll pay the amount to get it fixed. But if it doesn't my only other option is to get another engine, and rebuild it.

 

[JAG]

Oh yeah, and I also looked through the whole gear set of this other pump, and the casing, covers, and gears were in pristine condition. The gaskets were nice and strong, not spongy or stretchy.

Also found out that the scoring and corrosion found on the gears inside the housing evidentally is due to water getting into the oil, that and it sitting for awhile, caused it to get the condition it is in now. That was also proven by the oil filter having all the white gunk buildup in it.

[JAG]

Well, started to hook the oil pan back up after thinking 6 hours was long enough for that sealant to cure- actually just being impatient , When I saw dust size particle collected in a small dime size circle at the bottom of the oil pan. Looked more closly, ran my finger across the gritty surface and yup it was pieces of metal flake. 

Started to pour the oil from my bowl that I use to collect it from draining, and loko down at the bottom of it and saw bronze/gold particles shining through the thin layer of oil left at the bottom

Yup, I suppose the engine is shot..

Went ahead and fired her up anyways. Shot straight up to 45psi, warmed up and went down to 5 psi, oil light flickering ever so often, but not steadily on. Blipped the throttle to 3krpms, and it went up to about 26psi- which I don't believe is high enough, I think it's supposed to be more like 40psi- Any thoughts on that???

If you didn't know it was holding adequate pressure you'd swear the engine purred like a 750cc should.

I guess I'm going to run it until it falls over, and in the mean time start tinkering with this other engine..

Any other thoughts?


Thanks for everyone's imput By the way.. 

[edbikerii]

In my opinion, the oil pump needs to be replaced, and everything else is probably fine.  The oil pump is upstream of the filter, so it will catch whatever contaminants are in the oil and take the abuse.  Either way, you've already given up on this motor, so what have you got to lose?

I'd try to get that extractor and broken bolt out.  Try drilling into it with a masonry bit.  Start with a small drill bit to make a pilot hole, then drill it out to its full width gradually.  Make sure you use a center punch to mark the center so the bit won't "walk".  Go slow, and expect to go through a lot of bits.  I'm not sure if you should use cutting oil with a diamond-tipped masonry bit, but I'd imagine so, and it can't hurt to try.  Go really slow, and try not to break the bits off in the work again (doh!).

People break off extractors and drills in work like this all the time.  I'm very surprised that the machinists you talked to haven't done this before.  Or maybe they have, and it is just such a pain that it isn't worth it to them.  I think it would be worth it to me to save a good-running engine.

I spent last night trying to MIG weld washers and nuts to my buddy's broken cylinder stud on his Ducati M900.  We weren't successful in getting it out yet, but we're going to try again.  If that doesn't work, then we're going to drill it out and helicoil it.

[JAG]

Where do you get this helicoil at? Online, Home Depot?

So you don't think the metal bits at the bottom of the oil pan are of any concern? I assumed it was do to the excessive crank wear and things were starting to chip off??

[Muk]

try napa, or any other auto parts place

[JAG]

Okay update to this story..

Called the previous owner. He said he changed the oil pump twice and so did the guy before him. So with them two and me, that equals 5 times the oil pump has been changed. So I now know the problem is NOT the oil pump.

I have finally gotten everything buttoned down and I have ridden the bike a total of 150 miles.. If I didn't know anything about oil pressure, I would think that bike was SUPER Fast, with no quirks what so ever, but when I look over at the oil gauge and seeing that it reads 15psi, I know there is a problem, when I am doing 45mph.

When I first took it out and the engine warmed up, the oil light would actually stay on when it was under 3K rpms. So I freaked out, but still drove it 45miles.. Got home checked the oil and saw that the oil was a little low so I topped it off..

Let it sit a while and then took it back out. Road around for 20 minutes or so. Thought I would get on it when the light turned green. When I did I missed a gear and the revs shot up. I slammed down on the clutch a few times and blipped the throttle and finally got it back in. When that happened the oil light didn't come on anymore under 3K rpms In fact the oil light doesn't come on at all. When I got back to idle ( warm engine the reading was 5 psi and no oil light. I messed with the throttle screw and reduced the rpms, and it came on. So I know the oil light works, and is reading correctly. So what the hell happened??  The gauge still reads well below where the pressure should be but the light now works as it should..

Anyways.. I am think about getting a whole new crack rods and bearings to throw in there. But I don't know if that will cure the problem. I 've heard some messed up bearings and what not before and they make an AWFUL racket.. There is nothing out of the ordinary sound wise about this engine. Both previous owners have confessed to oil pressure problems, but all agree that the engine is a beast and runs beautifully.

I just wish there was a solid answer out there for me, telling me yes do this or do that. I would love to be able to change out the crankshaft and all it's bearings and rods, but can or will that change or fix the problem?

If there is excessive crank wear, i.e. metal bits falling down into oil pan, what is that from??? What causes it? What can I do to fix it?

Please help