Author Topic: 25 MILES of Freefall !!  (Read 3565 times)

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Offline bwaller

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Re: 25 MILES of Freefall !!
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2008, 02:41:47 PM »
My wife thought my bungee jump from 140 feet was crazy, this guy is just plain nuts!

Offline tsp37

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Re: 25 MILES of Freefall !!
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2008, 05:29:17 PM »
The speed of sound in air doesn't depend on the density but on the temperature.  Add 460 to the temperature in Fahrenheit, take the square root, and multiply by 49.  That will give you the sonic velocity in air in feet per second.  For example, at 75 F:

 sonic speed = 49 x sqrt( 75 + 460) = 1133 feet per second = 773 mph

At higher altitudes (or Canada) where the air is much colder, the sonic velocity is much lower.  At 0 F, you get 717 mph.

Terminal velocity - the maximum steady state speed of a falling body - is dependent on the air density.  At 100,000 ft, the air pressure is about one hundredth the pressure at sea level, and the density is likewise much less.  I read somewhere long ago that the terminal velocity of a human was about 180 mph at sea level.  I don't know if that's in a clean dive or flailing like a man who's about to become a greasy spot in the bottom of a big hole.

Offline BlindJoe

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Re: 25 MILES of Freefall !!
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2008, 05:32:03 PM »
That balloon cost ~$200k  :o , sucks for him. If only I had that much money to spend on sohc4's...........

Offline cb650

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Re: 25 MILES of Freefall !!
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2008, 05:44:39 PM »
Maybe someone should send him a cub scout knot tying manual.  ;D
Ahh Air temp affects dencity.
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Offline seaweb11

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Re: 25 MILES of Freefall !!
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2008, 08:17:22 PM »
The speed of sound in air doesn't depend on the density but on the temperature.  Add 460 to the temperature in Fahrenheit, take the square root, and multiply by 49.  That will give you the sonic velocity in air in feet per second.  For example, at 75 F:

 sonic speed = 49 x sqrt( 75 + 460) = 1133 feet per second = 773 mph

At higher altitudes (or Canada) where the air is much colder, the sonic velocity is much lower.  At 0 F, you get 717 mph.

Terminal velocity - the maximum steady state speed of a falling body - is dependent on the air density.  At 100,000 ft, the air pressure is about one hundredth the pressure at sea level, and the density is likewise much less.  I read somewhere long ago that the terminal velocity of a human was about 180 mph at sea level. 


I have checked all my calculations against yours, and You SIR.............. are correct ???

I came up with really fast ;D

Frisbydevil

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Re: 25 MILES of Freefall !!
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2008, 04:15:40 AM »
Ok I give up.

You lot are way to smart for me.

Are you sure your BIKERS and not eggheads????

Offline andy750

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Re: 25 MILES of Freefall !!
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2008, 04:23:29 AM »
Are you sure your BIKERS and not eggheads????

We are both  ;) You can get everything on this Forum from SOHC bikes to Babes to calculations of the speed of sound at 100,000 ft. Now if they just served beer  ;)

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2. CB750/810cc K2  - road racer with JMR worked head 71 hp
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Offline UnCrash

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Re: 25 MILES of Freefall !!
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2008, 04:56:48 AM »
Someone should tell this guy......



You can't make too much popcorn, but you can definately eat too much popcorn.

Offline Bodi

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Re: 25 MILES of Freefall !!
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2008, 09:10:21 PM »
Burning isn't a big deal with hydrogen balloons. If you look at the Hindenberg fire the skin (cloth with nitrocellulose lacquer) really does the nasty burning. The hydrogen of course burns but fairly slowly and the hydrogen fire goes up into the air quite rapidly - you can't really see this as the actual hydrogen fire is colorless.
For this high altitude gasbag, hydrogen makes a lot of sense. It has more lift than helium for a given size envelope. It's cheap and easy to make from water and electricity and can be liquified relatively easily - helium has to be mined and refined (and the reserves are running out) then stored under extreme pressure as liquifying it takes an enormous amount of energy. for high altitue balloons the gas is contained without any pressure in a limp plastic bag, not a tensioned envelope like a party balloon. At ground level the balloon looks almost empty, at high altitude the pressure is much lower and the gas inside expands to make a more spherical shape. It never goes tight and can't "pop". The primary failure mode for this type of ballon is fairly sedate: the plastic of the bag just tears and the lift gas escapes upwards. I have made a lot of hydrogen lift balloons and tried to light most of them... I'm too cheap to pay for helium but I like sending stuff up in the air. I make the hydrogen either by electrolysis of water or by dissolving aluminum on a strong lye solution, either way gives very wet (humid) hydrogen gas that will lift a lot better after drying. Giant trash bags are the best envelopes I've come up with although a bit too heavy. One bag will lift a kg or so to a decent height but because of the bag weight high altitude is not possible (the reduced amount of hydrogen used to allow room for expansion at altitude is barely enough to lift the bag).
Anyway, lighting the bag full of hydrogen is not hugely different from just tearing it. When you tear one, the gas goes up (invisibly) and the bag flutters down. When you light the bag - just holding a match against the bag works OK - the hydrogen burns quite slowly as it meets air to provide oxygen, the flame front is visible at night but not in daylight. The bag melts around the hole making the hole bigger, the gas goes up relatively invisibly and the bag flutters down.
For this freefall dude, his big risk is that the envelope fails or detaches when the capsule is off the ground but below about 1000 metres - the death zone. There's not enough time to deploy a parachute before crashing below that height although falling from anything more than 10 metres or so will probably be fatal for him. If he has an explosive deployment low altitude safety parachute he might only be in danger below a hundred or so metres. Regardless, hydrogen fire is a tiny risk compared to the others faced. Even on the ground while filling the bag, the fire will go up and he'll be down. Once airborne a fire will be rapidly going up while he rapidly falls down away from it.
Admittedly I've never worked with a gas bag anywhere near this scale, and there might be static electricity issues that make a fire likely if hydrogen is used when you have such a humungous plastig sack flarping around.

upperlake04

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Re: 25 MILES of Freefall !!
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2008, 10:58:20 PM »
 Great egghead stuff  Bodi  ;D  That's why I keep coming back here.    A few more details from the news -

  "At a news conference after the failed launch, Fournier's team said it was too soon to determine what happened, but that it appears as if the explosive cable cutter — the metal part meant to separate the gondola from the balloon after the jump — failed or was triggered prematurely.

The launch team said it believes one of cable cutter's five charge may have been set off by static electricity.

 His team recovered the balloon about 40 kilometres from the launch site and it is studying what went wrong. During the news conference, a jovial Fournier said he would try again in August, when jet stream conditions are next favourable for a launch.

  When asked which balloon he would use, Fournier said the same balloon that almost escaped his team Tuesday was more than up to the task.

"Why change the balloon now, when we've tested it today and it's working great?   I'm not about to give up," the white-haired 64-year-old said with a smile. "In life, you have to believe in what you do. If you don't believe in what you do, then you might as well give up."



troppo

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Re: 25 MILES of Freefall !!
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2008, 03:09:05 AM »
Great read bodi
I didnt know about the aluminiun and lye source for hydrogen. One thing you didnt mention about the Hindenburg disaster was one of the main ingredients in the fire, Aluminium paint!
In the twenties and thirties reflective aluminium paint was made by pulverising aluminium and mixing it with a carrier, aluminium as a sloid will heat up, melt and collapse when it is in a solid form but when it is in powder form it is explosive when exposed to a naked flame, it is actually part of the recipe for the space shuttles solid fuel booster rockets. So the static dischargewas the initial cause but once the paint (also electrically conductive) was ignited that caused the envelope to burn with the red/orange/yellow flame reported seen by witnesses rather that the blue flame hydrogen burns with.
Sorry for the thread jack folks.....
Cheers
Troppo

Offline kghost

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Re: 25 MILES of Freefall !!
« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2008, 06:41:27 AM »
I'd disagree with the aluminium paint being a huge source in the Hindenburg fire.

Nitro cellulose dope sure was but not the aluminium added to it.

Aluminium pigment is added to aircraft dope as both an anti fungal and anti UV barrier.

Mass quantities of airplanes have not ignited like the Hindenburg.

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Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: 25 MILES of Freefall !!
« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2008, 06:57:43 AM »
I guess the brasilian priest should have thought about it twice..




Offline nickjtc

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Re: 25 MILES of Freefall !!
« Reply #38 on: May 29, 2008, 07:06:44 AM »
So who holds the record for the highest freefall without a parachute, and surviving?

EDIT: had to research this, so Googled it:

http://www.distant.ca/UselessFacts/fact.asp?ID=154

EDIT EDIT: I heard about this fellow as an aviation-crazy kid:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Alkemade
« Last Edit: May 29, 2008, 07:09:59 AM by nickjtc »
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Offline kghost

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Re: 25 MILES of Freefall !!
« Reply #39 on: May 29, 2008, 07:10:30 AM »
http://nortygordytherudeone.blogspot.com/2006/07/worlds-highest-fall.html

On January 26, 1972, a 22-year-old flight attendant named Vesna Vulovic was not where she was supposed to be. She was cruising at 33,330 feet above Czechoslovakia (now Czech Republic) in a DC-9.............

 ;D
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Offline burmashave

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Re: 25 MILES of Freefall !!
« Reply #40 on: May 29, 2008, 07:30:22 AM »
@Bodi: great writeup.

Quote from: upperlake04
"At a news conference after the failed launch, Fournier's team said it was too soon to determine what happened, but that it appears as if the explosive cable cutter — the metal part meant to separate the gondola from the balloon after the jump — failed or was triggered prematurely.

The launch team said it believes one of cable cutter's five charge may have been set off by static electricity.

I would not call it "premature;" I'd call it JITF: Just in Time Failure. If the cutters had failed some seconds later, he'd be dead.

Quote from: upperlake04
When asked which balloon he would use, Fournier said the same balloon that almost escaped his team Tuesday was more than up to the task.

"Why change the balloon now, when we've tested it today and it's working great?   I'm not about to give up," the white-haired 64-year-old said with a smile. "In life, you have to believe in what you do. If you don't believe in what you do, then you might as well give up."

I'm a little fuzzy on this "working great" thing.

Oh, and has the priest been nominated for a Darwin Award yet?
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Offline kghost

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Re: 25 MILES of Freefall !!
« Reply #41 on: May 29, 2008, 07:40:53 AM »
Sure was in a hurry to meet his maker wasn't he?
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