Author Topic: Spark plug disaster  (Read 3735 times)

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Offline gregwaits

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Spark plug disaster
« on: May 28, 2008, 12:17:07 PM »
This is pretty messed up. I was in the process of changing the plugs on my CB750 and the plug for cylinder one broke off at the bottom. (see pics)

Will I be able to somehow tap into what is left in the head, or do I have to remove the cylinder head.

I wish the that these issues would quit popping up so I could begin to enjoy riding the bike!

Grrr
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Offline ger87410

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2008, 12:25:11 PM »
Looks like the threads broke in half.  :o

My money is on a head removal.  Especially since it's the #2.  There's no way you could cut a slot in that and then turn it.

Maybe CB-welding something to it and turning it that way?  :-\

Offline tsflstb

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2008, 12:25:29 PM »
I feel ya.



This is on my BMW so access is a lot easier.  I'm soaking it in penetrant and using the heat gun on it.  A few more days and I'll try the square EZ out.  I figure worst case it will break off to and I'll have to pull the head.

You can try a drill bit and tap with lots of grease to catch the shavings, I'd be worried that something would fall in there.

Offline gregwaits

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2008, 12:28:58 PM »
Actually the problem is in cyl # 1. I can look down in there  easily enough.

My mechanic just told me to spray blaster down in there and let it sit for a day or three. Then use one of those reverse thread "easy out" devices (which of course I will have to go buy now lol).

He said it should work. Since more than half of the threads are still in the cylinder head, maybe it will.

We'll see.
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bhorocks

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2008, 12:29:29 PM »
all i can say is that sucks...

Offline Steve F

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2008, 12:58:28 PM »
The problem with trying one of those "easy-outs" is you have to have a through hole for it to go into.  With a through hole, that means you have to knock out the ceramic in the middle first, which is likely going to end up in the cylinder.  Not good (unless you can figure a way of vacuuming all the little bits out of the cylinder.... :-\
If it were mine, the head would need to come off, or you take a risk of all those ceramic pieces destroying the cylinder.

Offline ger87410

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2008, 01:08:15 PM »
The problem with trying one of those "easy-outs" is you have to have a through hole for it to go into.  With a through hole, that means you have to knock out the ceramic in the middle first, which is likely going to end up in the cylinder.  Not good (unless you can figure a way of vacuuming all the little bits out of the cylinder.... :-\
If it were mine, the head would need to come off, or you take a risk of all those ceramic pieces destroying the cylinder.
Personally, I'd remove the head rather then risking a rebuild of the cylinders...

Your comment on vacuuming gave me an idea.  U could hook up a small hose/tube to your vacuum hose using duct tape and vacuum the cylinder out after removing the broken plug.  It'd still be risky since you're not guaranteed to get all ceramic pieces.

Offline tsflstb

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2008, 01:31:49 PM »
Actually the ceramic (at least on my bike) came out in one piece with some needle nose pliers.  The pic was before I even tried that.  I thought it would be stuck in there, but it came out easy.  I can only hope the rest of it will follow.

There is still the electrode on the bottom of the plug threads, so you don't have unlimited space.  Plus the piston is down there somewhere too.  Might have to check with a flashlight and bump the engine over to get it as far away as possible.

Offline andy750

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2008, 01:37:22 PM »
I had a spark plug hole on #2 helicoiled with engine in the bike and vacum used to suck up all the waste....it can be done!

good luck
Andy
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Offline chrislib

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2008, 03:24:54 PM »
Be very carefull NOT to break the easy out, I don`t think there is a drill bit made that`ll cut into one of those (don`t ask,lol). Also try to get the area heated up good before laying into it, one of those square halogen work lamps works well (don`t want to get it TOO hot). Good luck.
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Offline nilsey

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2008, 03:30:26 PM »
Actually the problem is in cyl # 1. I can look down in there  easily enough.

My mechanic just told me to spray blaster down in there and let it sit for a day or three. Then use one of those reverse thread "easy out" devices (which of course I will have to go buy now lol).

He said it should work. Since more than half of the threads are still in the cylinder head, maybe it will.

We'll see.

this same thing happened to me.

do what your mechanic says -- it will work. be patient and spray the stuff in there and wait and slowly ease it out.

this is what taught me never to overtighten spark plugs.....
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2008, 03:36:44 PM »
Doesn't aluminum expand with heat? Won't that make the thread hole tighter?  Now, making the spark plug thread metal colder, ought to shrink that away from the thread groves.  Dry ice? Cold spray?

As a penetrant use auto trans fluid and acetone 50/50 mix.
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GraveRobber

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2008, 03:37:17 PM »
I did the same thing one time on a chevy 350. Threads snapped off the plug but everything else came out. Try it, It worked for me. You might have to put a socket on the ez-out to get the reach. Just take it slow.

Offline kghost

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2008, 04:12:02 PM »
Man that sucks....

And the easy out will just deform whats left of the plug as you try and get it out.

Camming on the inside of the circle and what not.

It can be done but it takes finess.

I always us anti-seize on the plug threads for that reason...betting the PO didn't.
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Online Johnie

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2008, 05:16:46 PM »
Man, that can turn a nice day into crap.  The pics make me sick.  I agree, I have been using anti-seeze since I got the KO running.  Sorry that is too late for you but I wish you the best in getting that sucker out...
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Offline Steve F

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2008, 07:07:55 PM »
Be very carefull NOT to break the easy out, I don`t think there is a drill bit made that`ll cut into one of those (don`t ask,lol).
Hence the old phrase "........more f*[k3d up than a busted easy-out"   :D

Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2008, 01:55:35 AM »
That broken plug sucks, but it is indeed a great mechanical challenge. You will end wiser and more expert when you have it out.

I had an easy out broken in a stud, and I don't plan to use them anymore. I now drill the broken stud as if I'm going to insert the easy out, but gradually increase the drill diameter to eat the whole stud remains. I then tap new threads when I'm done, and if I can't, use a helicoil. It takes less time and the result is better.

Offline 750K2

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2008, 06:00:28 AM »
Doesn't aluminum expand with heat? Won't that make the thread hole tighter?  Now, making the spark plug thread metal colder, ought to shrink that away from the thread groves.  Dry ice? Cold spray?

As a penetrant use auto trans fluid and acetone 50/50 mix.

two tired - i was a thermodynamics major in college and we did a calculation that shows that adding heat to a hole, in metal materials causes expansion, not contraction.  i'd use heat - and no anti-seize as the plug is supposed to be grounded to the metal casing.
frank

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2008, 06:20:55 AM »
Doesn't aluminum expand with heat? Won't that make the thread hole tighter?  Now, making the spark plug thread metal colder, ought to shrink that away from the thread groves.  Dry ice? Cold spray?

As a penetrant use auto trans fluid and acetone 50/50 mix.
adding heat to a hole, in metal materials causes expansion, not contraction.frank

Same technique is used to insert wheel bearings. Granted, in that case the hole is empty, but in the case of the plug, the alum. will expand faster than the steel.
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Offline kghost

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2008, 06:29:03 AM »
Doesn't aluminum expand with heat? Won't that make the thread hole tighter?  Now, making the spark plug thread metal colder, ought to shrink that away from the thread groves.  Dry ice? Cold spray?

As a penetrant use auto trans fluid and acetone 50/50 mix.

two tired - i was a thermodynamics major in college and we did a calculation that shows that adding heat to a hole, in metal materials causes expansion, not contraction.  i'd use heat - and no anti-seize as the plug is supposed to be grounded to the metal casing.
frank

If you don't use anti sieze when you reinstall a plug stick to thermodynamics.

There will be less busted plugs for the rest of us.
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Offline Steve F

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2008, 06:33:40 AM »
I use anti-seize on plugs too.  Better safe than sorry, and no problem with plug grounding.

Offline 750K2

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2008, 06:42:31 AM »
i stand corrected on the anti-seize.  looked it up in a haynes manual.  thanks!

Chad

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2008, 07:25:47 AM »
I gotta get me a bucket of antiseize. I've  been using antifreeze.  I guess I misheard what that guy told me.   ;D

Offline kghost

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2008, 07:49:17 AM »
Antiseize doesn't inhibit conduction.

Plus its on the threads and the plug bottoms out on its sealing washer and the head.

Ground isn't a problem.

Mainly what it does is keep the exposed tip of the plug that protrudes into the combustion chamber from deteriorating....

Keeps the dissimilar metal galling/sticking to a minimum....

Lets you get the plug back out without snapping one off.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2008, 10:39:26 AM »
Doesn't aluminum expand with heat? Won't that make the thread hole tighter?  Now, making the spark plug thread metal colder, ought to shrink that away from the thread groves.  Dry ice? Cold spray?

two tired - i was a thermodynamics major in college and we did a calculation that shows that adding heat to a hole, in metal materials causes expansion, not contraction.  i'd use heat - and no anti-seize as the plug is supposed to be grounded to the metal casing.
frank
Frank,
No sir.  You would have to heat the entire head to get that hole to expand and those temps would likely char any oil inside.  The threaded hole is constrained by the surrounding mass of the head casting.  If you heat just the thread hole, the aluminum expands in that area but the only place it has to expand into the where the steel spark plug remains are, making it grip even tighter.   Aluminum expands faster and at greater volume than steel which would make the interface between them even tighter.  Further, the head is designed to move heat from the hole to the cooling fins.  Thereby, the entire mass of aluminum of the head will try to expand in all directions.  Such expansion forces will tend to make the hole diameter smaller, as that hole is a stress reliever for the surrounding mass of metal (barring the steel now embedded there).  I simply don't believe your calculations ever addressed a metal mass as complex as a cylinder head.  If the metal being heated was a simple unconstrained ring, then yes, the hole and the outer diameter would expand.  But, if you hold the outer diameter in place physically, the inner diameter, being the only area to expand into, will diminish.  A metallurgist and some welders know these things, if not by training, then by experience, which is where the college boys find their calculations have missed several variables that should have been included in the equations.  Materials science and thermodynamics are related, but NOT the same thing.

Anyway, it's the relative temperature between the steel (now stuck in the aluminum head), and the head itself that is the goal.  Dry ice/cold spray, if applied quickly enough to the inner steel, WILL contract/shrink the steel.  Then it is a matter of the conduction rate between steel and aluminum as to which one contracts faster.  It's a pity that an easy-out will exert outward pressure on the steel, increasing the friction between steel and aluminum.

Heat on the other hand, may just change any glue properties bonding the steel to the aluminum threads (like burnt oil).  Turning that glue to ash may well make extraction easier.  But, I'd let it cool before the extraction attempt.

I agree wholeheartedly about the anti-seize, btw.  But, that's a preventive, not a cure at this point.

Cheers,
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Offline 750K2

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2008, 12:01:02 PM »
TT - yup..it was indeed a membrane that we based our calculations on.  very astute!  i've admired your posts ever since i got on here for their clarity and depth of explanations. you know your sh*t.  nonetheless, i still disagree in the direction of expansion of the hole even in this case.  i base this not only on a measly calculation from years ago but some practical experience as well.  for example, heating manifolds to withdraw bolts, pump casings of rather large sizes and casting complexity (nowhere near our precious honda heads though) In large diesel engines heat is often used to enlarge the cylinder wall to slip liners out of cylinder borings and one doesn't go around heating the entire body of a diesel engine.  in fact, it's probably one of the few ways to get one out.  sticking to practical applications i have yet to see anyone apply 'cold' to a casting to slip a stuck thread but then again, i certainly am open to another technique.  it's certainly common to toss cylinder liners in a freezer prior to slipping them into place.
 
so let's consider your cooling idea.  it has merit.  there was another thread on here for removing dents using a slight amount of heat and some liquid CO2.  perhaps spraying the plug with the liquid CO2 would shrink the plug and break those jammed threads?? certainly less obtrusive than blasting an aluminum head with heat.  I noticed that the key to the CO2 was to hold the can upside down so that the liquid came out instead of gas.  the liquid has MUCH more cooling properties than a gas (change of phase and all that).  certainly worth a try if the liquid could be applied to just the plug body. 

like you, i've never had much faith in 'easy'outs.  heat has been my friend.  and you can believe that i will now and forever more apply anti-seize to my spark plug threads.
frank

Offline chrislib

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2008, 02:14:25 PM »
Anti-sieze is great stuff, just be sure to keep it off of the porcelain and/or the electrode as it will conduct electricity and cause a missfire.
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Offline kghost

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2008, 04:05:00 PM »
Anti-sieze is great stuff, just be sure to keep it off of the porcelain and/or the electrode as it will conduct electricity and cause a missfire.

Thats a fact.

I have never successfully removed a broken plug with an easy out btw.

Least not just an easy out.

I have chipped them loose with a chisel then used the easy out.

Conversely I have drilled them down to nothing then pulled out the remaining steel of the plug.

Like unwinding a big spring.

But it will fill the chamber with chips.

Which as a plus are magnetic  ;D

Best have a steady hand.
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Offline 750K2

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2008, 07:46:20 AM »
you guys are scaring me so badly with the ugliness of broken plugs that i'm going to pull my plugs and goop 'em with anti-seize.  seriously.

fuzzybutt

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2008, 02:07:37 PM »
i just removed a broken off spark plug from the motor on our daughters geo tracker. it wasnt easy but it did finally come out. ended up having to heli-coil too.

Offline cb750k7

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2008, 12:42:24 AM »
I have a box of unlabeled black graphite grease,  can i use it on my spark plugs and SS bolts or should I buy the "special" antiseize with extra ingredients?

TNX
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Offline bryanj

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2008, 01:16:59 AM »
Black graphite is not ideal, one of the high temperature copper ones (Copperslip is one trade name) are far better, best to apply with a 1/2 inch paint brush rather than finger
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Offline Steve F

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2008, 02:03:15 AM »
I've been using the LOCTITE brand nickel based antiseize compound with good results especially on anything that comes in contact with aluminum or zinc, or any steel-to-steel bolts which prevents rusting together.  I wouldn't use it on brake parts though just because I don't know how it would react to brake fluid and may possibly contaminate things.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2008, 10:59:30 AM »
I have a box of unlabeled black graphite grease, can i use it on my spark plugs and SS bolts or should I buy the "special" antiseize with extra ingredients?

TNX

If the grease is petroleum based, no.  Generally speaking, a petroleum product on spark plug threads, turns to glue at the temperatures seen by the spark plugs.

I've been using a spark plug anti-seize from Champion for the last 20 years, or so.  It is especially important where the head material is softer than the spark plug base material.  If it sticks and doesn't break off, then it takes the aluminum with it during extraction.

Cheers,
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Offline cb750k7

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2008, 11:04:55 AM »
Thanks.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2008, 11:32:28 AM »
My question is why does the brush top that comes with anti sieze not reach the bottom of the container?

You are supposed to shake the contents vigorously prior to use to put what has settle out back into suspension, and that puts plenty on the brush for each spark plug.

Do you know the difference between a solution and a suspension?
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2008, 11:47:08 AM »
Sorry, I thought you were talking about the Champion product I mentioned.

Anti seize is like oil, in that there are different types and different applications for same.

I guess your question was actually rhetorical, since you don't mention a product name or what it's intended purpose was.

In that case, the brush doesn't reach the bottom specifically to make you uncomfortable and allows them to sell product more frequently.

That better?  ;D
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Offline tsflstb

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Re: Spark plug disaster
« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2008, 09:18:44 PM »
I used the square, fluted extractors that you hammer in and dig into the broken threads.  They worked like they should have, but I think the amount of stuckness is beyond what they're made to do.  I was able to get some torque on the broken threads.  I broke two 1/4" drive ratchets (Craftsman and MAC) before I went and got a 3/8" socket to fit the extractor. 

It still held with the torque from a 2' long breaker bar with another 18" or so cheater bar on that.  I put most of my 200 lbs. on it for a few seconds repeatedly and it wouldn't budge.  I'm pretty surprised I didn't break the extractor off in there.



After that the extractor started working like a cutting tool and just cut off little shards of steel.  Even the impact wrench didn't do anything.  I tried, but I think it's best to just pull the head now.  I hope you see better results.