Author Topic: 650 carb adjustment  (Read 2849 times)

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Offline MosquitoJones

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650 carb adjustment
« on: June 01, 2008, 02:48:45 PM »
So after reading up on the subject as much as possible, I'm pretty sure my bike is running lean.  She shows all the classic symptoms of lean running (overheating, crapping out at full throttle but coming back when you let off a bit, etc) and I just had the carbs taken apart and cleaned so I know it's not an issue with jets being gunked up.  I have the limiter screws on the pilots.  If they are at the 11 o'clock position against the stop, do I back them off counter-clockwise to richen the mixture?

Everything else was checked out when she was at the mechanic (spark advance, etc) so I'm baffled as to what's causing this problem.  Don't dare take her on the freeway due to the loss of power.
'82 CB650, 65 CP77 Superhawk in chunks

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 650 carb adjustment
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2008, 11:32:43 PM »
Do spark plug deposits confirm the lean diagnosis?

Is your accelerator pump working properly?

Is the air filter clean/new?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline MosquitoJones

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Re: 650 carb adjustment
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2008, 10:20:25 AM »
I'm not going to be much help here, unfortunately.  My bike did the stall-out-on-the-freeway thing a couple of times last year, but then seemed to be doing ok.  I chalked it up to bad gas and moved on.  Did the same thing to me this spring, so I figured it was time to take the bike in to be looked at.  The mechanic said that "it didn't sound good," that there was knocking, and the #2 cylinder wasn't firing at all.  He took the carbs completely apart and cleaned them out.  He said they were filthy (which I can understand, I've had the bike for 8 years and not cleaned them, and have no idea what the PO did with it).  Once he got them back together the knock went away and the bike would idle at 1700 rpm, which it would not do before.  Kicker is when he took it for a test ride, she did the same damn thing to him.  Then he thought it might be the spark advance, so he looked at that, but it was fine.  I got the bike back from him after 2 weeks and $450.00.  He's always been a very good mechanic, hasn't tried to charge me for stuff it didn't need, etc, but any more I'm wondering if he hasn't taken up smoking something. 

Long story short, the guy who's supposed to know things doesn't, and I have no idea what carbs are on my bike, or what the spark plugs look like.  One reason I haven't worked on my bike is because I don't have much idea what I'm doing (not that I can't learn) and even if I did, I have a $20 tool set from Wal-Mart so I couldn't even pull the plugs if I wanted to.  If there's something I can look at externally to determine what the carbs are, let me know and I'll run down to the parking garage and peek.

Appreciate the help and patience with the noob  :)

edit: also, the air filter was cleaned out while he was working on the carbs so it should be good.

double edit:  the bike is an 82, not the sc.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2008, 10:25:46 AM by MosquitoJones »
'82 CB650, 65 CP77 Superhawk in chunks

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 650 carb adjustment
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2008, 11:48:25 AM »
A few possibly relevant points to consider.

Carbs get filthy from sitting or being fed bad gas. An example is my 74 Cb550.  20 years without carb work, which I attribute to regular operation of at least once a month.  Gasoline has aways been an excellent solvent, when not involved with direct human contact.  If it is always flowing through the carbs, it keeps them pretty clean.  Stop the flow and evaporation leaves deposits behind.

I believe someone has done proper work when the machine runs as intended.  Idling at 1700 is not fixed, but only improved.  I can't say I believe your carbs were cleaned and adjusted properly.

It is rare to find someone who is actually familiar with these bikes, rather than simply saying they are, or are one's who you'd expect to be.  It's not that younger persons CAN'T be competent.  It's just not likely they have ever worked on your type bike before.  Or, they are just trying to make a living by spending minimal time and effort on each job and reaping maximum income from each.  This may not include an understanding of how the machine (on this particular job) works.  Just enough action to get the customer to pay money.

It comes down to three choices, I think.  Keep paying your "trusted" mechanic until the bike performs as you'd expect.  Keep trying different mechanics (and paying them) until they either actually figure it out or stumble upon replacing the part(s) that actually mend it's errant behavior.  Or, learn how it works yourself.  This last can serve you two ways.  One, you may well be able to fix it yourself, saving some money.  And two, you can converse/guide your selected mechanic into the proper area of the bike to work on.

Another point is that paper filters can't be cleaned 100%.  And, they work by capturing particles in their membrane.  Each cleaning leaves behind some particles and while the filter is still being effective at filtration, it gradually closes off the inlet area the engine needs to breathe in though.  Further, paper is subject to distortion from water, such as humidity in the air.  On a microscopic level, the fibers begin to collapse and this also reduces the inlet area for the engine.  All this, means a paper filter has to be replaced periodically to restore proper performance.  If you have had the bike 8 years and NOT replaced the filter, be aware that Honda recommends these filters be replaced on a yearly basis.  One diagnostic check is to remove the filter, temporarily, and observe the effect on the symptom you wish to address.  Worse/better gives a clue to correct diagnosis.

I only know two sure ways to determine a lean diagnosis.  An exhaust gas analyzer, or reading spark plug deposits.  The bike came from Honda with a tool kit that enabled spark plug removal.  If Honda thought you should have these tools, why don't you?  It's hard to imagine driving a bike around for any distance without a tool kit on board.  I guess people are more reliant on cell phones and roadside assistance than I.  Anyway, if you ever decide to look at spark plugs, here is something to compare to: http://www.dansmc.com/Spark_Plugs/Spark_Plugs_catalog.html

Finally, I may not be the best person to help with your bike's problems, as I don't have an example of that bike and I don't have any manuals to refer to on that bike. 

One thing is certain, if that bike is ever going to be reliable/enjoyable, someone is going to have to get intimate with it.  Like most acquired skills; patience, practice, and perseverance, prevails.

Best of luck with your decision.

Cheers,


Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline MosquitoJones

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Re: 650 carb adjustment
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2008, 01:14:42 PM »
Well, I decided to go with option 3, which is why I joined these boards and have been asking for help  ;D.  As far as my mechanic goes, he's no spring chicken, and he also races and builds his own drag bikes, so I would hope he has more experience with motorcycles than a 20-something fresh out of mechanic school.  I've been satisfied with him up until now, but when you shell out that much cash and the problem doesn't go away, you start wondering if maybe the money wouldn't be better spent on stuff so you can do your own work. 

I do have the original owner's manual, but the tools aren't there.  I don't have a spark plug wrench, but that's easily remedied.  I guess I should ask what a "must have" set of tools for the bike would be.  I'm not loaded with cash, but I can easily pick one up here and there until the set is acceptable.  I have a Haynes that was given to me, and I downloaded the Honda shop manual from the boards here.  The Haynes has some nice color pictures of what the plugs should look like, so once I get them out I'll have some idea of what to look for.  I'm handy enough, I can do stuff like electrical, plumbing, drywall, and could put a computer together if I needed to.  Really it's that I've just usually left the mechanical to the mechanic, because I'm afraid of really screwing something up and then needing the mechanic anyway.  I'd be most comfortable if I had someone who knew what they were doing looking over my shoulder to explain things as I did them, but barring that even semi-detailed instructions will do. 

My "to do" list this summer includes:

bleeding the brakes (was going to do that yesterday but found the tubing I had wasn't the proper ID)
replacing the fork seals
redoing the throttle cables (put clubmans on and now the stock cables are too long)
new choke cable

I figure all of these projects are relatively straightforward, and will help to give me confidence to tackle other issues.  The bike itself has been a joy, and with the exception of last summer and now, hasn't given me any troubles in 8 years.  I took it up on the freeway constantly without concern or problem.  It only has 22k miles on it, so I wouldn't expect there to be major mechanical failure ahead.  But I'd rather be ahead of the curve so that when something does come up I'm prepared.  I'll go back and do some more reading of the "general maintenance" sections and try those things along with a new air filter. 
'82 CB650, 65 CP77 Superhawk in chunks

Offline Triffecpa

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Re: 650 carb adjustment
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2008, 01:42:01 PM »
one other thing that you need to consider.  I have had a couple of DOHC Hondas that have the same ignition system (Honda OEM Eelctronic) that came on the '81-'82 SOHC 650's.  The bike would run fine until they got hot and then they would drop one ignition circuit (ie 1 and 4 or 2 and 3).  After I replace the ignition pick up plate on the end of the crank, all was well again.  It's a fairly common problem with those parts.

If I have the one go out on my current 650 trackbike, I'll just swap in a Dyna S as I've never had a problem with those units.

TR

Offline MosquitoJones

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Re: 650 carb adjustment
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2008, 03:03:02 PM »
be aware when you purchase tools for working on you bike that everything is metric. Usually a $20 tool kit from walmart will not have the correct sized sockets. The screws however are all philips! You should also get a metric allen key set. and a socket set from 8-24mm and the same in a wrench set. You may find that the wrenches and sockets stop around 19mm, thats okay too. Pick up a set of adjustable wrenches. Most of the bolts are small, the axle bolts being the largest.

For being a $20 Wal-Mart special, it's not too bad.  Has both metric and english sockets/allens, an adjustable wrench, screwdrivers and a bit set.  Just not fancy and certainly not as good quality as Snap-On or Craftsman.  I'll check and see what the largest sockets are, those aren't hard to come by.

Triff, I will keep that in mind if after doing some other things the problem doesn't go away.  However, it only seems to occur at about 60+ mph, regardless of temperature.  It's not an RPM issue either, since I can get it up to the magical 5k where the problem occurs at any other speed/gear.
'82 CB650, 65 CP77 Superhawk in chunks

Offline cb650

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Re: 650 carb adjustment
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2008, 04:26:32 PM »
Sometimes it can just be a "bad set".  Ok maybe the shafts are worn or something more hard to detect.  I had a set that wouldnt run right.  after several cleanings put in another set and bike has been fine.  FYI the 79/80 used the same electronics as the 81/82 but the 79 has everything located diffrently
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misterpunch

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Re: 650 carb adjustment
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2008, 06:14:44 AM »
So after reading up on the subject as much as possible, I'm pretty sure my bike is running lean.  She shows all the classic symptoms of lean running (overheating, crapping out at full throttle but coming back when you let off a bit, etc) and I just had the carbs taken apart and cleaned so I know it's not an issue with jets being gunked up.  I have the limiter screws on the pilots.  If they are at the 11 o'clock position against the stop, do I back them off counter-clockwise to richen the mixture?

Everything else was checked out when she was at the mechanic (spark advance, etc) so I'm baffled as to what's causing this problem.  Don't dare take her on the freeway due to the loss of power.

Your plug socket is 18mm and is about $3 at any decent hardware store.  It was one of the first tools I got after I bought the bike. 

Here's a short list of what I have with me on my '82:

allen key set up to 6mm (you'll need a little bigger to get the front brake calipers off)
sockets to 4mm-14mm (only even numbers are required)
phillips screwdriver
pocket knife
spare plugs and fuse
good luck charm
cell phone (last resort)

Offline MosquitoJones

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Re: 650 carb adjustment
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2008, 08:04:41 AM »
Thanks for all the input and suggestions.  I did successfully bleed the brakes last night.  They are firmer but still not where I'd like them to be.  Looking at the brake pad I think I need a new one, it's very close to the "oh god stop driving on this thing right now" mark.  Maybe I will try doing that this weekend.

I checked my tool set and I have combination wrenches in metric and standard, sockets up to 19mm, allens in metric (though I couldn't find the numbers on them - the largest will take out the bolts on the handlebars).  I will pick up a plug socket first thing, and figure out where there's a road that I can do a plug chop on without getting run down by a texting soccer mom.  The spare fuse is in the fusebox, so I'm good there. Sadly I lost my Leatherman, but perhaps this is a good excuse to go buy a new one.  Also, since it's spring, I can hit the swap meet and buy decent tools there for a buck apiece. 

I will also run downstairs and see what my carbs are.  If they aren't the doomsday version, then I guess I'll start going through the other possible culprits. 
'82 CB650, 65 CP77 Superhawk in chunks

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 650 carb adjustment
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2008, 09:55:26 AM »
Just a caution on the spark plug socket.  If the 650 is like the 550 in this regard, a straight walled socket it difficult to work with on the #3 hole.  There is risk of cross threading during installation, damaging the cylinder head.  The Honda tool kit spark plug tool is bell shaped to clear the head obstruction and still allow the spark plug to go straight in.

If your fork seals are leaking oil onto the brake pads, new pads won't help your brakes for long.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline MosquitoJones

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Re: 650 carb adjustment
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2008, 10:55:52 AM »
They are, which is why the fork seals are high on the "to do" list.  Can the specific Honda plug tool be purchased from a dealer or will I have to go hunt ebay?
'82 CB650, 65 CP77 Superhawk in chunks

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 650 carb adjustment
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2008, 11:05:46 AM »
Either.

Any MC shop ought to have them.  The issue is the reach of the tool, as the spark plug is in a deep recess.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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misterpunch

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Re: 650 carb adjustment
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2008, 05:27:42 PM »
oh yeah, the handlebar bolts are 6mm allen bolts, if they're stock.  I have one of those survival knife looking gadgets for allen keys and it works quite nice.

Offline MosquitoJones

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Re: 650 carb adjustment
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2008, 07:45:56 AM »
I found a complete set of fork seals for around $20 locally, which is about as cheap as online, and I won't have to wait for delivery.  So I think that is my project for this weekend.  I have pretty detailed instructions on doing the forks, but I have no lift.  Any suggestions on a safe but simple rig to get clearance other than just the center stand or will that be sufficient?
'82 CB650, 65 CP77 Superhawk in chunks

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 650 carb adjustment
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2008, 09:51:44 AM »
You still use the center stand.

put weight on the back of the seat to lift the front wheel
Or, place a jack under the from of the engine, like the oil filter, (wood block to protect from marring) Don't raise the front so far as to lift the weight off the center stand, or it will fold up, and bike will fall over.
Or, use a tow strap, rope, tie down strap, to pull up on the handle bars, front of frame, etc., to raise the front end.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline MosquitoJones

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Re: 650 carb adjustment
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2008, 11:08:18 AM »
I'll use the jack method under the oil filter, I have the bumper jack from my '73 Travelall, and if it can lift that thing I'm guessing it won't even notice the bike  ;D
'82 CB650, 65 CP77 Superhawk in chunks

Offline MosquitoJones

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Re: 650 carb adjustment
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2008, 02:36:07 PM »
Yeah, the snap-ring pliers were on the list.  Luckily I have a major hardware store nearby, so getting hold of most things shouldn't be a problem.
'82 CB650, 65 CP77 Superhawk in chunks

misterpunch

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Re: 650 carb adjustment
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2008, 03:17:49 PM »
I found a complete set of fork seals for around $20 locally, which is about as cheap as online, and I won't have to wait for delivery.  So I think that is my project for this weekend.  I have pretty detailed instructions on doing the forks, but I have no lift.  Any suggestions on a safe but simple rig to get clearance other than just the center stand or will that be sufficient?

Where did you find the instructions for replacing your seals?  I have the same bike with new seals and OEM wipers ready to change but wouldn't mind detailed model specific instructions to make the process easier.

Offline Gordon

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Re: 650 carb adjustment
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2008, 03:19:39 PM »

Where did you find the instructions for replacing your seals?  I have the same bike with new seals and OEM wipers ready to change but wouldn't mind detailed model specific instructions to make the process easier.

The Clymer manual does a decent job of explaining the procedure, but a Honda shop manual is always best. 

rallyegolf

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Re: 650 carb adjustment
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2008, 08:04:04 PM »
Make sure your carb insulator boots are in good shape. If they are old and cracked they most likely are causing your bike to run like crap. I pulled my hair out for two months trying to figure out what was causing my bike to run poorly, then I replaced the carb boots and it started right up and ran smooth........
« Last Edit: June 07, 2008, 08:51:21 PM by rallyegolf »

Offline MosquitoJones

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Re: 650 carb adjustment
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2008, 10:09:02 AM »
[Where did you find the instructions for replacing your seals?  I have the same bike with new seals and OEM wipers ready to change but wouldn't mind detailed model specific instructions to make the process easier.

I have the Haynes manual, downloaded the shop manual, and also instructions from someone on another board to fill in any gaps.

I will also check the carb boots rallye, thanks for the tip.
'82 CB650, 65 CP77 Superhawk in chunks