Author Topic: A big problem that came on Fast!!  (Read 3705 times)

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Offline LoopsAndLogic

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A big problem that came on Fast!!
« on: June 08, 2008, 07:26:13 pm »
Long story short, I took my bike out of winter storage in May. Rode my 75' CB400F for approximately 108 miles.

Took her for a nice long trip today with my friend this afternoon, and not 5 mins into the ride, my voltage gauge says
 my battery isn't be charged at over 4k rpm.

I get home in about another hour from then, and find that my battery is maintaining at 12.72 after sitting for 40 mins.

I find out that my regulator is not switching over to compensate for the 4k rpm. I look to find that my points on my regulator unit are not flicking over.... So I switch it out for another regulator, and as soon as the voltage (when using my Multi meter) hits 14.55v on the battery at 4k rpm and up, the points on the regulator jump over to the high side and she automatically jumps to 12.89v's and continues to drop volts as longs as I keep the rpm's high.

And to make things even more worse, is that the second regulator sometimes sticks in the high position on the points.

 What could be causing this?

It's weird that she's started to do this today, when 2 years straight, she's been perfect. Especially when she didn't do this last week.

Any help on this is appreciated as this is my daily rider.

LL
My rides:
75' 76' Honda CB400F Super Sports
86' Honda XR600R for Street Madness
84' Honda Interceptor VF500

Past Rides:
80' Honda CX500C Fully Dressed
81' Honda CB650C very nice!
83' Kawasaki KZ550 A3
78' Hondamatic 400 Hawk
80' 81' 82' Honda GL500 Silverwing Insterstate

Offline bryanj

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Re: A big problem that came on Fast!!
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2008, 09:06:17 pm »
Its the regs, they dont like sitting about doing nothing---the points start to stick just like you describe, libberal dosing of WD40 plus adjustment as per manual usually sorts em out
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline Hush

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Re: A big problem that came on Fast!!
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2008, 09:19:29 pm »
Yeah what he said. ;D
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!

Offline LoopsAndLogic

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Re: A big problem that came on Fast!!
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2008, 08:25:54 am »
I wish it was that simple, but that wouldn't explain the problem when the high speed points make contact and the system starts
discharging my battery.

Again, it starts to charge the battery when increasing the throttle all the way up to 4k rpm and it's nearing 14.45v's, (this is normal) and then once it jumps to the high speed contacts to maintain this charge rate, it shoots all the way to 13.00v's and continues decreasing as longs as I have the bike up in the rpm range. It will literally go all the way to 12.23v's and counting.

How do you explain that??

LL
My rides:
75' 76' Honda CB400F Super Sports
86' Honda XR600R for Street Madness
84' Honda Interceptor VF500

Past Rides:
80' Honda CX500C Fully Dressed
81' Honda CB650C very nice!
83' Kawasaki KZ550 A3
78' Hondamatic 400 Hawk
80' 81' 82' Honda GL500 Silverwing Insterstate

Offline Jay B

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Re: A big problem that came on Fast!!
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2008, 11:10:49 am »
I'm no electrical guru, but maybe your high speed contacts are dirty. You get charge at low speed, then nothing, and the dra w of the motor running saps voltage.
Jay
'77 CB550K
'74 CB350F cafe
2001 Road King
'73 CB175

Offline scondon

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Re: A big problem that came on Fast!!
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2008, 11:13:01 am »
 Isn't 12.7v a normal reading for a fully charged battery? I don't do a lot of regulator testing unless there's a problem so really haven't got a good grasp of when and how much it is supposed to supply power to the battery but am of the understanding that if the battery is full it shuts down a bit in order not to overcharge the battery.

I wish it was that simple, but that wouldn't explain the problem when the high speed points make contact and the system starts
discharging my battery.

   The system is always discharging the battery as soon as you turn the key. Maybe the low side points give a charge no matter what the battery "needs" and the high side points actually take the battery's voltage into consideration?

   Just joining the conversation until someone who actually knows comes along ;) :)
Give me..a frame to build a bike on, and my imagination will build upon that frame

Offline TwoTired

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Re: A big problem that came on Fast!!
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2008, 01:50:01 pm »
The voltage "regulator" does so via the back door.  It "senses" the battery voltage and assumes that all the switches and contacts between it and the battery are pristine and new.
It "regulates" the battery/bike voltage by controlling the alternator output strength via the power it gives to the field coil, which, in turn, controls the magnetic field the alternator functions within.

The Vreg has three output states; Balls-to-the-wall, treat things gently, and die-you-bastard-die.  (Yes, the Vreg has no couth.  Besides, it's old and cantankerous.)

When the battery is low, the vreg puts full battery voltage to the alternator, nailing the balls-to-the-wall, forcing the alternator to make as much power as it can, given the rpm of the crankshaft, wimpy at idle and "burly manly" at higher RPM.
When the vreg notices that the battery is fully charged (14.5V), it removes one of the figurative nails by inserting a 10 ohm resistor between battery and alternator field, reducing power delivered to the field coil.  The magnetic field diminishes, and the alternator output power, also diminishes.  Wimpy becomes wimpy-whelping-pathetic, and "burly manly" becomes dainty.

If the battery voltage sensed by the vreg EXCEEDS 14.5-15V, the vreg not only removes all the nails instilling a sigh of relief, but curtails life support for the alternator, by removing ALL voltage delivered to the alternator field.  In rare cases, it also sends funeral flowers and a Japanese flag to drape over the burial coffin.  But, such events are not widely publicized by the **ahem** current media.  Anyway, in this state, the alternator is just a useless lump and doesn't even whimper no matter what RPM it spins at.

So, that's the three states the vreg induces for the bike via the two internal contact sets.  At rest, its at the Balls-to-the-wall contact, bypassing the 10 ohm resistor.  When the battery is charged, neither contact is made, and when the batt voltage is too high, the upper contact is made, shorting the alternator field to ground, and threatening burial.

The three states can't always be observed by mere mortals as the vreg is a rather fickle device.  See, when the battery voltage gets too high, and the vreg turns the alternator down, the battery voltage drops, and the Vreg panics and turns the alternator back on, the voltage gets too high again, and the cycle repeats.  The contacts can actually chatter, and the frequency changes with the engine rpm/alternator output strength.  But, you really shouldn't be looking at these while your are riding.  Road hazards, and all that, you know.

Then there is the battle within the Vreg itself, among the two sets of contacts.  When the contacts make/break the current flowing through them, there is heating and some mechanical wear.  Over time and overwork (and sometimes maladjustment), pitting and burning deposits can interfere with their operation.  Pitting can lock the contacts together such that the vreg isn't strong enough to pull them apart, and a carbon and dirt coating can prevent them from making a contact while closed.  This makes nail delivery and extraction problematic, with a side effect of placing lot's of question marks, a few exclamation points, as well as characters from the top row found on standard keyboards, above the motorcycle rider's head.  These question marks and other undesirable characters can be removed by reading forum posts, and then cleaning and adjusting Vreg contacts as outlined in the Honda Shop Manual.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline scondon

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Re: A big problem that came on Fast!!
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2008, 02:58:56 pm »
Fantastic TT. I can't believe I actually understood the ENTIRETY of one of your posts.  ;) ;D ;D

 from "Balls to the Walls" to "Die you bastard, die". I get it :)
Give me..a frame to build a bike on, and my imagination will build upon that frame

Offline cafe750

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Re: A big problem that came on Fast!!
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2008, 06:51:46 pm »
Awesome post TT! Maybe we should have a " Thoughts of TwoTired" thread, to go along with the "Thoughts of Hondaman" thread... :)
"It's an old motorcycle, the wind is supposed to blow your head around, it's supposed to leak oil, the brakes should suck, and every now and then, it should scare you so bad you piss your pants."



Roy, Washington

Online Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: A big problem that came on Fast!!
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2008, 09:50:25 pm »
TT,

You're just brilliant tonight. That's the best yet  :o  :o
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline bryanj

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Re: A big problem that came on Fast!!
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2008, 10:21:52 pm »
TT, put that together with the colour diagrams that are on the site somewhere(maybe one of the bulletins?) and its a damn good print out,

Keep it up mate
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline LoopsAndLogic

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Re: A big problem that came on Fast!!
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2008, 02:45:39 pm »
Well done TT but here's one thing you've forgotten....The oem Shop manual says not to clean the contact points or file them, as the
points will then be prone to pit or pit faster.

Clymer says this even. So, point taken, the regulator has many problems with it. Sticking points, over heating coil to draw the points back to low, etc.

The battery is fully charged, reading at 12.56v from sitting 3 days straight. It was just weird how it would automatically start discharging it self as soon as it would reach the normal Voltage of 14.50, and then hit 13.00 and continue to drop as longs as the rpm's are higher than 3k when it was working perfectly for 2 years and then 15 days for this season.

Lastly, before I restart another post, is it or should I say, would it be ok for me to fit a 1981 GL500 Silverwing R/R that has the same colored and same number of wires??

I happen to have one that came off a perfectly working GL. Just a thought before I start looking for another 400F R/R.

Should I consider the CB500 R/R's that are adjustable with the tiny screw on the side of them??? Just another thought....

Thanks again for the help

LL
My rides:
75' 76' Honda CB400F Super Sports
86' Honda XR600R for Street Madness
84' Honda Interceptor VF500

Past Rides:
80' Honda CX500C Fully Dressed
81' Honda CB650C very nice!
83' Kawasaki KZ550 A3
78' Hondamatic 400 Hawk
80' 81' 82' Honda GL500 Silverwing Insterstate

Online Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: A big problem that came on Fast!!
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2008, 03:41:49 pm »
LL, et al,

Would you rather replace the regulator or extend it's life? Both are fine. In theory you might never want to file points but in practicality (word?) you do/will. If it's the points that are the problem and you file them and properly reset the gap and the problem goes away then you've just made a positive diagnosis &/or repair. Ride with it this way if it works or replace it.

My 750 shop manual states:
4. Point gap adjustment
     If the surface of the points and if they are dirty or pitted (verbatim), use fine grade emery paper and clean up the points. Check the gap with a thickness gauge. Standard gap is 0.12~0.016in (again verbatim) (0.3~0.4mm). If necessary to adjust, loosen the point gap lock screw, then tighten the screw after adjustment.

 
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline TwoTired

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Re: A big problem that came on Fast!!
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2008, 03:58:42 pm »
Well done TT but here's one thing you've forgotten....The oem Shop manual says not to clean the contact points or file them, as the
points will then be prone to pit or pit faster. Clymer says this even. So, point taken, the regulator has many problems with it. Sticking points, over heating coil to draw the points back to low, etc.

Oh, I didn't forget.  If your points are already sticking from pitting, cleaning, and reconditioning is hardly going to do them harm.  Cleaning points properly is kind of a lost art.  Using the wrong materials, and not burnishing them shiny after the cleaning, will NOT make them good as new.  They will then fail again faster than new ones.   Close examination will determine whether they need cleaning due to pitting/cleaning, or simply readjustment.  Honda manuals DO give directions for point cleaning.  EG. "If the points are pitted or fouled, polish with a #500-#600 emery paper."   If you'd rather trust Clymer, feel free.  They just say to replace the rectifier and assume the reader is too incompetent to properly fix that component.

The telephone company once had millions of contacts to recondition periodically.  You old enough to recall the phrase, "We seem to have a bad connection?"  Those were bad contact points.  Technicians were trained on how to fix these without replacement.  Points files and points burnishing equipment from this industry will most certainly fix up old worn points in a Honda mechanical VReg.

Lastly, before I restart another post, is it or should I say, would it be ok for me to fit a 1981 GL500 Silverwing R/R that has the same colored and same number of wires??
No.  The charging system works differently from a Cb400-550-750.  The GL doesn't have a Field coil to control.

Should I consider the CB500 R/R's that are adjustable with the tiny screw on the side of them??? Just another thought....

I don't understand the question. Stock Cb500s had a separate Vreg and rectifier.  Further, the adjusting screws were inside the cover on all the examples I've seen. These will work with the Cb400 alternator.  If you found one with a R/R combo, it's after market.  But, if it works with the CB500, it should work with the CB400.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline scondon

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Re: A big problem that came on Fast!!
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2008, 04:06:25 pm »
Well done TT but here's one thing you've forgotten....The oem Shop manual says not to clean the contact points or file them, as the
points will then be prone to pit or pit faster.

Clymer says this even. So, point taken, the regulator has many problems with it. Sticking points, over heating coil to draw the points back to low, etc.

   Do not use a file or cleaner that leaves residue. 80 grit and simple green are not good and the manuals would like to discourage anyone who doesn't understand that grooves in the surface or contamination by foreign material is BAD for points.

 Finishing with 1200-2000 grit paper has worked fine for me and I read it in the same shop manual as Jerry ;) :) Adjusting them to spec (also supplied by Jerry) should have it working for another 30 years.

   What I get from your post LL is that your reg wasn't working properly for years and finally started switching off the "balls-to-the-walls" contact. The topic reads like "Help, my battery is fully charged. What's wrong with my regulator?". It's your bike and you know it better than anyone and surely must know more about reg. function than I if your able to test it ;)  But just cause your onboard volt meter started giving different readings doesn't necessarily mean that something is wrong, does it?

EDIT: damn it,TT. It took me too long to type this. I'll read your reply AFTER I post this and see if there's any repeat then ;)
Give me..a frame to build a bike on, and my imagination will build upon that frame

Offline LoopsAndLogic

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Re: A big problem that came on Fast!!
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2008, 04:10:36 pm »
Well, I cleaned the points and that didn't work. Emery made them look very nice, but they still stick.

I was hopping, but unfortunately it didn't work.

Could you explain why the GL500 R/R wouldn't work? Both alternators produce the same color and same number of wires. Granted their outputs are different....

It matches up perfectly to the 3 wires for the regulator, and match perfectly for the rectifier wires (3 yellows, 1 red/white, and 1 green wire).

I'm glad I'm asking you before proceeding with this, as my idea's come from fellow motorcycle friends in the block.

Thanks again

LL
My rides:
75' 76' Honda CB400F Super Sports
86' Honda XR600R for Street Madness
84' Honda Interceptor VF500

Past Rides:
80' Honda CX500C Fully Dressed
81' Honda CB650C very nice!
83' Kawasaki KZ550 A3
78' Hondamatic 400 Hawk
80' 81' 82' Honda GL500 Silverwing Insterstate

Offline LoopsAndLogic

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Re: A big problem that came on Fast!!
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2008, 04:12:49 pm »
And to note, the reason why my battery is holding a charge, is because when I noticed the alternator wasn't charging my battery, I killed the bike instantly!!!

This problem hasn't been an on going thing ::)

So, I hope this makes more sense for you all. I actually forgot to mention this....my bad ;D

My rides:
75' 76' Honda CB400F Super Sports
86' Honda XR600R for Street Madness
84' Honda Interceptor VF500

Past Rides:
80' Honda CX500C Fully Dressed
81' Honda CB650C very nice!
83' Kawasaki KZ550 A3
78' Hondamatic 400 Hawk
80' 81' 82' Honda GL500 Silverwing Insterstate

Offline scondon

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Re: A big problem that came on Fast!!
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2008, 04:24:49 pm »
  I had faith in ya, LL. I knew it made sense to you ;) :) :) :)
Give me..a frame to build a bike on, and my imagination will build upon that frame

Offline LoopsAndLogic

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Re: A big problem that came on Fast!!
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2008, 04:26:50 pm »
Thanks! :) :) :) :) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Now, what about that newer R/R???
My rides:
75' 76' Honda CB400F Super Sports
86' Honda XR600R for Street Madness
84' Honda Interceptor VF500

Past Rides:
80' Honda CX500C Fully Dressed
81' Honda CB650C very nice!
83' Kawasaki KZ550 A3
78' Hondamatic 400 Hawk
80' 81' 82' Honda GL500 Silverwing Insterstate

Offline scondon

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Re: A big problem that came on Fast!!
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2008, 04:36:21 pm »
   $60 from partsnmore  (scroll down). Not as cheap as something yanked off a buddies bike but an option none the less.

https://www.partsnmore.com/cat_index.php?model=cb400&category=electrical
Give me..a frame to build a bike on, and my imagination will build upon that frame

Offline LoopsAndLogic

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Re: A big problem that came on Fast!!
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2008, 04:44:09 pm »
OOOOhhhhh! Your on the right track, but that's just a rectifier, isn't it??

I'm counting the wires but there the same count as my separate rectifier.

My rides:
75' 76' Honda CB400F Super Sports
86' Honda XR600R for Street Madness
84' Honda Interceptor VF500

Past Rides:
80' Honda CX500C Fully Dressed
81' Honda CB650C very nice!
83' Kawasaki KZ550 A3
78' Hondamatic 400 Hawk
80' 81' 82' Honda GL500 Silverwing Insterstate

Offline scondon

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Re: A big problem that came on Fast!!
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2008, 04:58:13 pm »
 Damn, I just saw the "Rectifier Regulator" title and didn't bother to click on the item. Rectifier only, pooh... :P

    I've got a combo unit in one of my 750's that came from a place in San Mateo,CA that specializes in tools and good quality jap bike electrics. Pricey but very nice, I'll see if I can sniff something up for ya since these don't show up in very many parts catalogues.
Give me..a frame to build a bike on, and my imagination will build upon that frame

Offline TwoTired

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Re: A big problem that came on Fast!!
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2008, 05:52:02 pm »
The gl500 alternator must be a permanent magnet type.  The regulator controls one of the output phases by turning it off when the voltage gets too high.  Anyway, it has no means to drive the field coil which makes the magnetic field for the CB bikes.  No magnetic field, no power output to control.

I really don't understand why you can't make the regulator(s) you have work.  Are you expecting it to read 14.5v all the time?  Because the points "chatter" when the battery is full, your meter is going average out the samples it takes of the charging system voltage. When the meter sampling rate beats against the  regultaor oscillation you can get aliasing, and not get a meaning full reading.  Do you have a peak hold function?
However, the average voltage should not go below, say 12.8V, while the alternator is making power to overcome the electrical load of the bike and charge the battery.

What happens if you short the black and white wires at the Vreg? (effectively taking it out of circuit and bypassing any thoughtful or erratic behavior it might have?  In other words, with it jumpered out, the alternator should always try to overcharge the battery when the engine is revved up.  If it won't, then the Vreg is not the fault.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline scondon

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Re: A big problem that came on Fast!!
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2008, 06:02:04 pm »
 Man TT, yer really stepping down to my level with that "macguyver" testing method.............thank you :-*
Give me..a frame to build a bike on, and my imagination will build upon that frame

Offline LoopsAndLogic

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Re: A big problem that came on Fast!!
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2008, 09:08:29 pm »
So this one little wire (white wire) electrifies the alternator to produce output for the lighting, etc??

And I can't find away around this, even though this R/R does the exact same thing?

I hope I don't sound so ignorant or annoying....when it comes to electronics that involve A/C and sometimes D/C, I'm lost. ::)

When this white wire is hooked up to the regulator, the white wire is sending energy back to a coil inside the alternator cover?

Which is in turn, shutting down energy that's going to the battery when the regulator senses the battery receiving too much voltage?

 If I were to post a oem diagram of the GL500 wiring, would you be able to tell if I could work around this R/R?

Would a Honda CB650 R/R hook right up?

And lastly, would anybody know of a make and model (car) that would have a Regulator that is small enough to fit on the left sidecover?

Again sorry for all the questions, as my title under my user name speaks for itself. ::)

LL

P.S. And yes TT, the average voltage does drop below 12.8v and counting.
My rides:
75' 76' Honda CB400F Super Sports
86' Honda XR600R for Street Madness
84' Honda Interceptor VF500

Past Rides:
80' Honda CX500C Fully Dressed
81' Honda CB650C very nice!
83' Kawasaki KZ550 A3
78' Hondamatic 400 Hawk
80' 81' 82' Honda GL500 Silverwing Insterstate