Topic: A big problem that came on Fast!!

[bryanj]

Go look at

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/frank.cooper1/frameset.html

And check out the circuit for an electronic regulator that should be small enough to fit in the tin box even!

In the diagram is a sot(set on test) resistor but i dont see why that cant be an adjustable pot so you can alter the voltage.

A fully charged battery by the way is 13.2 volts---6 cells at 2.2 each

[TwoTired]

The stator makes power when magnetic lines of flux cross its wires.  The stator doesn't care where these lines originate.  In the GL500 it's a permanent magnet.  In the SOHC4, its an electromagnet, namely the field coil.  The white wire from the alternator drives the field coil.  The stock regulator either gives it full battery voltage (balls-to-the-wall), reduced battery voltage (treat things gently), or zero voltage (die-you-bastard-die).  These states change the strength of the electromagnet and the amount of lines of magnetic flux the stator windings need to make power.  The spinning rotor makes whatever lines of flux that are present, actually cross the stator windings, inducing a developed voltage.

The GL500 R/R has no circuits to drive an electromagnet, let alone control it.  I have a CX500 and a manual that covers it AND the GL500, with commensurate wire diagrams.  It's R/R keeps the stator from over charging the battery by blocking one of the output phases of the stator.  If you wish to prove me wrong, go ahead and try it.  But, none of my wire diagrams show any white wire attachment to the GL500 R/R.  So, I'm curious how you actually plan to hook it up.

In theory, the CB650 R/R should work.  However, I think someone on the forum tried it and it didn't.  It likes to have connections to both ends of the field coil's wiring.   And, the Cb400 only has connections for one end, the other is connected to frame return.  If I recall correctly this confused the Cb650 R/R and it didn't work.

If you want to use car parts, search for Pinhead's posts.  He's been promoting a conversion for quite a while.

P.S. And yes TT, the average voltage does drop below 12.8v and counting.

It did this when you jumpered across the black and white wires?  (remove the green regulator connection.) If so, your bike's problems are NOT in the V regulator.

[TwoTired]

A fully charged battery by the way is 13.2 volts---6 cells at 2.2 each

This is only true when the battery has a surcharge, such as when it is directly removed from the charger or being charged.  After a 1 to 2 hour rest, it will read 12.6 or 12.7V, open circuit, as the cells can't sustain 2.2 volts on their own.

http://www.yuasabatteries.com/answer10.asp

They can actually have a higher cell voltage than 2.2 during charging.   

Cheers,

[LoopsAndLogic]

Now I understand. And I did find a R/R from a CB650 and it's wiring diagram. I kinda got excited when I saw it had the same colored wires and count. Including that white wire.

And I wasn't trying to prove you wrong, I just wasn't understanding your explanation.Sorry

I will try searching for Pinheads posts. Would it be in the FAQ or the TipsAndTricks section?

And when I said it hits 12.8v and drops, I meant it does that as soon as the bike hits 4k rpm, and the voltage is nearing 14.45v.
 As soon as it hits the high speed connection, it drops to 12.8v and continues.

My alternator (doing the wire crossing) will overcharge my battery

Thanks again everyone for your help and guidance,

LL


Edit:  bryanj, thanks for the help on the regulator, but I don't have the experience to read a diagram such as that. It would be nice to make one on my own, but I don't have the time nor the knowhow.
 

[LoopsAndLogic]

I found Pinheads thread and I was quite amazed! I will be heading to the auto parts store later on to see if I can find a
old regulator such as the one he found.

But I was wondering, is it better for the battery to be charging at 13.3v's or 14.5v like the book says?

Here is what Pins said: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=12465.0

And if not, then I found this Vreg at this site. http://www.oregonmotorcycleparts.com/vregulators.html

What do you think??

[TwoTired]

My alternator (doing the wire crossing) will overcharge my battery

It's a test to isolate problem components.  You don't permanently run that way.  And, you discontinue the test when/if you see the battery going above 14.5 V and not declining lower, thus proving that the Vreg is the only component that can cause the concerning issue..  That short period of time won't hurt the battery. 
I guess the test is not for everybody.

Lots of prior posters have claimed happiness with the oregomMC R and R/R.  But, no one has ever sent me one to try out. (hint)
 It's ok though, the mechanical regulators on all my CBs (10 of them) work fine.

[LoopsAndLogic]

Well, seeing that both of my 400f's regulators are fried, I see spending on ebay just a little over $20 bucks for another one including shipping.
 What would you do? Spend 15-20 dollars for one from a auto parts shop that you don't have to adjust ever, try one of these aftermarket Vreg's for $50, or spend $20 for a oem Vreg on Ebay that's untested??

And your test worked great! Thanks for that

Is 14.4v's better than a battery receiving 13.3v's? Pinheads Vreg charges at 13.3v.

Thank you

LL

[LoopsAndLogic]

Bump!

[jevfro]

I'd just fix the ones you have...
 I'm still not understanding whats wrong w/ yours.

The link pinhead gives is cool but I can't find those vregs for less than $40 around here... (trust me I tried, I drive three old fords that use them)

I think the Oregon MC ones sound like a cool upgrade.. Buy two and give one to TT for being such a helpful (and entertaining) poster!

Actually I think I might do it as I've learned so much from his posts...

I just gotta wait for my bike to finish falling apart first.!

[scondon]

I'd just fix the ones you have...

   I agree, never seen a fried stock regulator much less two. Not that I've had a really large sampling of them, but over the years............ 

    That hasn't stopped me from putting new solid state stuff in my bikes though

[LoopsAndLogic]

I'd just fix the ones you have...
 I'm still not understanding whats wrong w/ yours.

The link pinhead gives is cool but I can't find those vregs for less than $40 around here... (trust me I tried, I drive three old fords that use them)

I think the Oregon MC ones sound like a cool upgrade.. Buy two and give one to TT for being such a helpful (and entertaining) poster!

Actually I think I might do it as I've learned so much from his posts...

I just gotta wait for my bike to finish falling apart first.!

After adjusting these regulators for 3 and half years, you'd think I would know how to adjust these.

I even contemplated the idea, that maybe the Rectifier could be the cause, but again, thanks to TT's help, it's proven to be not the problem.

I ordered a Regulator for a 1976 Porsche 911s that has been used for 2-1/2 years by a SOHC member and it's worked perfectly for him.

And just to clarify, 13.3v is better than charging a battery at 14.5v?

Cause the Regulator that Pinhead suggested only delivers that much to the battery.

  regulators.....

[LoopsAndLogic]

Okay, I was looking over my PDF copy of Honda's shop manual, and since it's all blurry due to my
crappy coppier, I need just these 5 questions answered.

1. What is the Armature Gap? It has to be .020-.040inch
2. What is the Angle Gap and where is the screw to adjust it to .024inch??
3. By bending the Point Gap like the manual said, I can only get half of the surface to make contact with the point. Is this ok??
4. Are the points suppose to float in the middle when the bike is being rev'd high? Cause it's not sticking anymore....
5. Is there suppose to be a point that the voltage will stop dropping when the bike is at idle, or will it always discharge the battery, and pending on the batteries condition, it should try to self sustain??

I used emery, but that made groves even with the finest paper causing sticking, so I opted to use 1500grit. Very little lines and mostly smooth. Works great!

I adjusted what I thought to be these area's on the Vreg, but I want to make sure I have them right.
 It does say that some early Vreg's are nonadjustable. I hope this isn't the case for the 400F.

Cause just 5 mins ago, I was able to get the bike to start and run holding 13.45v at 2500rpm and varying to 13.75v to 14.42v while at 4k and higher on the tach. I probably need to bend the gap a little more for it to reach a higher rpm and then stabilize??

Again, thanks for your all your patience and help. I hope to posses the knowledge someday to help someone else with their CB problems.

LL

[TwoTired]

Your manual must use different terms than mine.  But, I don't have a 400 manual.  My manual has the pages posted in the FAQ by Jonsey.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=1012.msg168839#msg168839
You should be able to extrapolate your manual's term meanings from those in Jonsey's post.

You alternator makes about 150 watts peak at some sweet spot RPM.  It makes about 40 or 50 watts at idle RPM.  The stock bike's electrical load is about 9-10 amps with the headlight on, or about 100w to 120w load.  More, if you have added electrical components or changed them for higher power consumptive ones..  So, if your engine ain't revvin', the battery is drainin'.  A draining battery will show a progressively lower voltage reading.

Cheers,

[LoopsAndLogic]

Your manual must use different terms than mine.  But, I don't have a 400 manual.  My manual has the pages posted in the FAQ by Jonsey.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=1012.msg168839#msg168839
You should be able to extrapolate your manual's term meanings from those in Jonsey's post.

You alternator makes about 150 watts peak at some sweet spot RPM.  It makes about 40 or 50 watts at idle RPM.  The stock bike's electrical load is about 9-10 amps with the headlight on, or about 100w to 120w load.  More, if you have added electrical components or changed them for higher power consumptive ones..  So, if your engine ain't revvin', the battery is drainin'.  A draining battery will show a progressively lower voltage reading.

Cheers,

Well, that's good to know. Thanks TT

Crap, I just found that post and I didn't go down that far in the thread.

But are the points suppose to float in the middle when the bike is being rev'd high? I didn't read that anywhere, and I've never took any note when the Vreg was working properly.

The voltage fluctuates which is normal?? The fluctuations are sometimes .5v to .75v when at 4k rpm.

All stock, but since I never drive at night, I've switched to a lower wattage low beam . By only 5watts.
 Plus I put new connectors and wires going to the front headlights. They have no more resistance:)

thank you

[TwoTired]

But are the points suppose to float in the middle when the bike is being rev'd high? I didn't read that anywhere, and I've never took any note when the Vreg was working properly.

The voltage fluctuates which is normal?? The fluctuations are sometimes .5v to .75v when at 4k rpm.

Are they truly floating or moving faster than you can see?

The regulator is supposed to maintain the battery at a level.  If full alternator output is too much, causing overcharge, and half alternator output is too little to keep the voltage up, the regulator cycles between the two states to maintain an "average" battery  level.  It may, for example spend 90% of the time at half power (no contact), and 10% of the time at full (contact).  Still think you could see the contact?  You might even interpret this behavior as "floating".

The battery itself is the system voltage "smoother".  And, will delay wild rapid voltage swings to the best of it's ability.  Large loads or charging currents, will still cause fluctuations.    If you need it to be more steady, get a bigger battery.

Cheers,

[LoopsAndLogic]

The fluctuations are evident when my meter is hooked up to the battery.

.5v to .75v when at 4k rpm, etc, is something normal. Good to know!

So in reality, it's not making contact with the lower contact, but just merely touching it to maintain that Voltage level that
I set it to.....now I understand!

So, when the bike is running, it's touching the upper contact all the time, until the voltage is getting too high, it then, by the
magnetic coil draws the arm away from the upper contact, and by it floating, it self-sustains the voltage output to the battery.

Wow! Now I know why the points need cleaning periodically. They get moisture and pits that cause them to stick.

Thanks again for all the help....now it's time to ride in this 91F degree weather were having

LL