Author Topic: '72 CB500 Four K1 Weird problem (for me)  (Read 2881 times)

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19thSTCB

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'72 CB500 Four K1 Weird problem (for me)
« on: June 13, 2008, 10:06:24 PM »
Hello,
I just got a '72 CB500 that I am working on getting road worthy.   The last thing I did to it was add new clutch plates.  However, two things are happening now.   First, I cannot get it to shift into neutral any more unless I shut off the engine and roll/rock it slightly forward (only an inch). 

But something else weird is happening.  The kick start is not disengaging from the drivetrain when the bike is off.  That is, when the engine is off and the bike is in gear I squeeze the clutch and then pump the kick start and the bike moves.   I took off the side cover to see the clutch plates while I kicked it over and they were moving freely, but the bike was lurching forward (its not compressing the pistons just moving forward).  If the clutch is not squeezed the kick start moves the pistons.  Now if the bike is in neutral and I squeeze the clutch, and use the kick start it doesn't turn the bike over nor move it, it has no resistance.   If I don't squeeze the clutch in neutral the kick start turns the engine over.  The bike never lurches forward when I'm in neutral and use the kick start, it only lurches forward if the bike is in gear with the clutch lever squeezed (again it is not turning the engine over, it is just engaging the sprocket).

So to sum up, the bike can only be kick started in neutral with the clutch lever not squeezed.  Then after you shift out of neutral the bike will not shift back into neutral unless you turn off the engine and rock it forward slightly.  If I try and kick start it, in gear, with the clutch lever squeezed the bike lurches forward and doesn't turn the engine over.

It didn't do this before I replaced the clutch plates. But I cannot figure out why it is doing it now.

This is my first attempt at motorcycle mechanics, so don't be shy with the obvious.

Thanks.


Offline TwoTired

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Re: '72 CB500 Four K1 Weird problem (for me)
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2008, 10:31:29 PM »
The kick start needs the clutch engaged to turn the crankshaft.  Both the 550 and 500 work in this way. It's normal.
Shifting into neutral difficulties are due to a dragging clutch that preloads the engagement dogs.  Improper clutch adjustment, or warped plates can cause, this.  Slightly rolling the bike helps these slide to pop out of gear, into nuetral.

You may also find that hen engaging the 1st the trans clunks or even lurches a bit.  Also, a dragging clutch issue.

Cheers,


Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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19thSTCB

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Re: '72 CB500 Four K1 Weird problem (for me)
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2008, 10:49:58 PM »
The kick start needs the clutch engaged to turn the crankshaft.  Both the 550 and 500 work in this way. It's normal.
Shifting into neutral difficulties are due to a dragging clutch that preloads the engagement dogs.  Improper clutch adjustment, or warped plates can cause, this.  Slightly rolling the bike helps these slide to pop out of gear, into nuetral.

You may also find that hen engaging the 1st the trans clunks or even lurches a bit.  Also, a dragging clutch issue.

Cheers,



So I always need to be in neutral to use the kick start on this bike?     And I cannot use the kick start if the bike is in gear and the clutch lever pulled in?  My friend has a cb750 and he can, is it just the 500/550 then?  Just to be clear, when you say "clutch engaged" you mean the lever is out or in?

So your saying there is still enough friction in the clutch plates when the lever is pulled in to not allow me to shift into neutral?  What should I change in clutch adjustment to fix this?  The plates are brand new and I adjusted the cable so there is the recommended play in the clutch lever (10mm).  I also have the clutch adjuster set to what the manual said (clutch lever out, set clutch adjuster till it contacts the clutch lifter rod and back off 1/8" turn on adjuster).
« Last Edit: June 13, 2008, 10:56:18 PM by 19thSTCB »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: '72 CB500 Four K1 Weird problem (for me)
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2008, 11:01:40 PM »
So I always need to be in neutral to use the kick start on this bike? 
You have to have your hand off the clutch lever to to make the kick starter turn the crankshaft.  Best to have it in neutral.

So your saying there is still enough friction in the clutch plates when the lever is pulled in to not allow me to shift into neutral?  What should I change in clutch adjustment to fix this?  The plates are brand new and I adjusted the cable so there is the recommended play in the clutch lever (10mm).  I also have the clutch adjuster set to what the manual said (clutch lever out, set clutch adjuster till it contacts the clutch lifter rod and back off 1/8" turn on adjuster).

The 500 clutch is difficult to adjust for both no drag and full engagement, I'm told.  I'm probably not the best one to advise how it is best to do it on the CB500.  I've never gotten to the restoration of my 500.  And, the guy I got it from said there were "trans problems".  So, I'm not too keen on working on it just yet.  I have no spares for it.  I just couldn't turn down a free bike.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

19thSTCB

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Re: '72 CB500 Four K1 Weird problem (for me)
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2008, 06:20:45 AM »
Thanks twotired, 
I'm happy to find out that the things with the kick start are normal.  Its seems funny it would be built that way, but I'm happy it s not a problem.

Anyone else have suggestions on tuning this clutch ?

Offline HondaMan

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Re: '72 CB500 Four K1 Weird problem (for me)
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2008, 08:59:17 AM »
My first thought: it sounds like you've been riding dirt bikes before: they usually have a kickstarter that allows you to start by pulling in the clutch (while stuck on a hillside, holding the brake with the other hand).

When the 500's clutch lifter has gotten worn (usually from lack of grease & care by the riders before you), the disengagement point becomes "touchy" to proper adjustment.

So, try this method to "sneak up" on the sweet spot (or else just get a new lifter assembly and replace your worn one):
1. Adjust the cable adjusters to full slack, i.e., turn them all "in" to start.
2. Turn the adjuster at the handlebar lever to be 2 turns out from the "full slack" position.
3. Grease the clutch lifter on the engine case before this next step. Then, adjust the clutch lifter by loosening the clamp screw, then turn it until you feel the beginning of resistance, then back off just a little, about 1/16 of a turn. This "resistance" is the lifter's cup pressing against the lifter shaft, and you need just a bit of slack in between them for "elbow room" during this setup. Tighten down the lifter's clamp screw.
4. Now, pull on the clutch lever. There should be about 1/2" to 3/4" slack, measured at the outside arc of the end of the lever. It will probably be more, since your system is worn somewhat. If it is, loosen the lifter's clamp screw again, and tighten that lifter up a bit, and try again. Repeat this until you have the required end-play on the clutch lever.
5. Now comes the "worn tuning" part. Adjust the cable's end adjuster at the crankcase for this part. Extend this adjuster until the slack at the handlebar is only about 1/4" or so. Take the bike for a short "shifter test ride", long enough to heat the bike up, and see how much the shift point moves. It will move "outward", where the clutch engages later with the lever further out, when the engine is hot. This adjustment point can be compensated with the lever's cable adjuster, which is the reason it is there: on cold days, you will find you may need more slack, and on hot summer days in heavy traffic, you can use this to "shorten up" the cable's length a little to keep the engagement in a likeable spot for you. This adjuster should look very used on a bike, or else the owner does not understand its function, or only rides in a narrow temperature range...if you cannot get an agreeable engagement point by using this handlebar adjuster, then you must tighen up the clutch lifter on the engine case a bit more, then test again. DO NOT attempt to adjust this lifter point further with the cable adjusters, or you will overcenter the lifter, requiring full disassembly to reset it inside. You might find, in the end, that you are snug up against that "resistance" you feel when tightening the lifter, just because of the wear you have in that old lifter. This is OK, so long as it is not so snug that it lets the clutch slip when the lever is released.

Over the next 1000 miles or so, you will have to repeat this lifter adjustment at the engine case, because the clutch plates will wear a bit while they settle in. Again, DO NOT attempt to fix it up with the cable adjuster on the engine case, or you will overcenter the lifter. Simply loosen the clamp screw and snug up the lifter adjuster. You will then find that it has a much more definite feeling to it than it will have today, because the plates are more aligned then, in the clutch.

You may want to print this out, take it to the bike, and play with it there: you'll get it after a few "feely" attempts. It works out fine, even with worn lifters, unless the old one is so worn that it "stops" against a raised, worn edge when lifting beyond a certain point. If yours feels like this, then you will have to replace it, as there is a groove worn into the lifter itself from lack of previous maintenance.

When the 500 transmission wears, some slack gets introduced in this lifter-and-shaft mechanism inside the crankcases, making for a "wandering engagement point" for the clutch. The problem can be fixed up by replacing the spacer washers on the mainshaft and countershaft in the tranny, then replacing the clutch lifter in the side case. In the worst cases, the tranny ball bearings also need replacement. This restores like-new performance. Greasing this lifter is critical to keeping that performance, and almost no owner I ever saw (except my brother) greased them. His lifter went 80,000 miles just fine, while I routinely replaced them on most customer's bikes at about 25,000 miles for the problems you describe. The 500 tranny is good for 100,000 miles if the spacers and bearings are replaced at about 40,000 to 50,000 mile intervals. If not, the shifter forks suffer wear from the shafts moving back and forth with each clutch pull-in.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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19thSTCB

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Re: '72 CB500 Four K1 Weird problem (for me)
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2008, 04:55:15 PM »
Honda man,
No I didn't ride dirt bikes, I've just never had a bike with a kick start before.  '98 was the oldest bike I had until this one. And this is the first bike I've gotten my hands dirty on.

Thanks for your detailed clutch adjustment notes.  I will be trying it out.  The bike says it has 33K on the odometer so hopefully it can can make it through this summer without needing tranny work.  I want to do a fuller rebuild/maintenance overhaul over the winter.

Thanks again!

Offline HondaMan

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Re: '72 CB500 Four K1 Weird problem (for me)
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2008, 08:41:30 AM »
Honda man,
No I didn't ride dirt bikes, I've just never had a bike with a kick start before.  '98 was the oldest bike I had until this one. And this is the first bike I've gotten my hands dirty on.

Thanks for your detailed clutch adjustment notes.  I will be trying it out.  The bike says it has 33K on the odometer so hopefully it can can make it through this summer without needing tranny work.  I want to do a fuller rebuild/maintenance overhaul over the winter.

Thanks again!

Dang, missed that analysis. Well, I never did well in Psychology classes, either...  :-[

At 33k miles, if the PO had not lubed the lifter once in a while, the symptoms pretty clearly point to some wear in there. The tranny should be fine, still, and for a long time.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

19thSTCB

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Re: '72 CB500 Four K1 Weird problem (for me)
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2008, 03:41:09 PM »
Well I got the clutch drag fixed.  Thanks all. 

I can now shift into neutral with the engine on.    I also found through reading other threads that I had not paid close attention to the orientation of the slit marks in the friction discs I installed and they were not in there correctly. 

Live and learn.  I'm sure I'll have another problem soon......till then.

Here is a pic of the bike.  I just finished making the seat and next up is fixing the electronics and new pipes.  Then she'll be ready for the road.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 03:57:12 PM by 19thSTCB »