Author Topic: First gear "skips"  (Read 2324 times)

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Lightninrodman

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First gear "skips"
« on: June 15, 2008, 08:08:02 AM »
We just picked up a 75 CB 750. It runs and shifts ok, the clutch seems ok as well. When you accelerate moderatly hard in first gear, it will pull for a few feet, then it seems to "skip", then engage again. it will only do this once or twice, then it seems to stay engaged fine after that, (until you need to engage first gear again...then it does the same act all over again)

It feels like the pegs or engagement slots on the gear or hub on the gearshaft are rounded , or maybe the shift fork is bent and not pushing the gear in all the way. ( I don't have a book yet so I'm not sure of the correct honda terminology )


I've tried to make sure the shifter went down all the way, before starting, and I also tried holding the shifter down while accelerating. (Goldwing rider suggested that one to me)


It does not do this in any other gear.

Is this a common problem? Could it be in the shift ratchet mechanism? IIRC getting to the gears and shift fork requires splitting the lower cases... :'(




Thanks for reading this,

Mikey

Offline 754

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Re: First gear "skips"
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2008, 08:11:57 AM »
The shift selector is under the left engine cover, skinny one.

 You cant inspect the selector and ratchet, but not the forks (or gear dogs), & gears.. It would be worth having a look, get a gasket first..
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: First gear "skips"
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2008, 08:18:34 AM »
It's pretty rare, really, on the 750, more common on the 500.
There's 2 things that can cause it:
1. Loosened shift drum pawl retainer plate. This is a wordy description of the screw and retainer plate that holds the pins on the shifter drum: if abused, this screw can work loose, letting the pins fall out of alignment. When this happens, the shifter can't pull the drum all the way into the gear position, so it mimics a bent shifter fork. This can be accessed under the cover on the left side where the shifter enters the cases. You'll see it immediately if you remove this cover: it's toward the top, and the screw is right in th emiddle. It was dimpled in the locked-down spot when built, so if it's not tight, it will be obvious. The good news: this is more common than bent shfter forks, easier to fix, and does no damage to the internals of the tranny, other than poor gear engagement.

2. Bent shift fork. This is far more common in 2nd gear than 1st, though, due to "racers" shifting without the clutch, or from shift drum wear on high-mileage bikes (like mine!). New parts will fix it right up. The bad news: you gotta pull the engine to do it.

 :)
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Lightninrodman

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Re: First gear "skips"
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2008, 09:03:53 AM »
Thank you 754 and Hondaman for the quick replies... :)

We'll be pulling off that side cover for an inspection of the shift drum pawl retainer plate attachment screw.  Thanks for some encouraging  thoughts  about the cause as well, I'm keeping my fingers crossed that that's all it is.


later, mikey

Offline mystic_1

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Re: First gear "skips"
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2008, 08:52:51 PM »
Thank you 754 and Hondaman for the quick replies... :)

We'll be pulling off that side cover for an inspection of the shift drum pawl retainer plate attachment screw.  Thanks for some encouraging  thoughts  about the cause as well, I'm keeping my fingers crossed that that's all it is.


later, mikey

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Offline seaweb11

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Re: First gear "skips"
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2008, 10:04:14 PM »
"HondaMan"
My 750 k8 has started to have a couple of soft clunks off of 1st on a pull. Same deal with mine? , just pull off the left side and have a boo at the screw?

If that's not it can I just continue to run the crap out of it until I finish the Tracy?  And if so what would the consequences be?
.....To my K8 not the Tracy 8)

Offline HondaMan

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Re: First gear "skips"
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2008, 07:40:08 PM »
"HondaMan"
My 750 k8 has started to have a couple of soft clunks off of 1st on a pull. Same deal with mine? , just pull off the left side and have a boo at the screw?

If that's not it can I just continue to run the crap out of it until I finish the Tracy?  And if so what would the consequences be?
.....To my K8 not the Tracy 8)

That's always the first place I look for this problem, Seaweb. I don't find it very often, but occasionally I have. Of course, I saw it more in the racing and street-racing days, but still... Honda did finally admit, in one of their service bulletins, that there were a couple of positions of the shift drum that needed to be "wider" in engagement, due to the varying lengths of the shift lever's dogs, but not in so many words. They just made the "null spots" on the drum a little wider, which let their gears stay engaged over a wider movement. This worked well for the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts, which were the most sensitive. But, the 1st gear situation can also be caused also by a BENT pin in the array: you can usually see it pretty easily if this is the case. I have seen one, just one, bent retainer disc, which let the 3-4 pins move too much, with similar results. To this day, I still have no idea how that guy bent it, though.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline mattcb350f

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Re: First gear "skips"
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2008, 07:59:07 PM »
While we've got the HondaMan captive  ;D

I discoverd my 350F will do exactly what lightninrodman's does between 4th and 5th.

....But I think it's my fault; It did it twice when I shifted without the clutch  ::).

I use the clutch every time now and hasn't done it since.

I really doubt my shifter parts are loose...... my theory is that when shifting without the clutch, the load left on the shifter parts/gears doesn't allow the drum and ratchet mechanisim to fully rotate the fork into position but does allow some engagement. Then as the power comes on it jumps out.

 Does that sound right?

 Matt.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: First gear "skips"
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2008, 08:45:34 PM »
While we've got the HondaMan captive  ;D

I discoverd my 350F will do exactly what lightninrodman's does between 4th and 5th.

....But I think it's my fault; It did it twice when I shifted without the clutch  ::).

I use the clutch every time now and hasn't done it since.

I really doubt my shifter parts are loose...... my theory is that when shifting without the clutch, the load left on the shifter parts/gears doesn't allow the drum and ratchet mechanisim to fully rotate the fork into position but does allow some engagement. Then as the power comes on it jumps out.

 Does that sound right?

 Matt.

You're pretty close, Matt: the drum on the 350F has very narrow engagement slots, because the gears are thin. The shifter shaft is also long and thin, which lets it torque "back" if you shift hard with your foot, like a spring. This prevents it from turning the drum all the way if you shift without the clutch. It's sort of a Watchmaker's bike, not as robustly built as it's bigger brothers. You gotta be nice to it.   8)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline mattcb350f

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Re: First gear "skips"
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2008, 08:58:09 PM »
You gotta be nice to it.   8)

I'm learning............slowly  :D

I apologised to her, gave er' a bath and promised never to do it again  ;D

 Matt.
1974 CB350F,  1980 CB125S,  1981 XL80S
Non Honda's: 86 & 87 Husqvarna 400wr's

My CB350F resto: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=30467.0
Gallery at:
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