Topic: 76 CB550F having electrical starting issues... UPSETTING ME!

[1976HondaCB550F]

I recently purchased a 1976 Honda CB550F.  When I got it, it started right up using the electric push start button.  A couple of days later, it would not start using the push start button.  I tried kick starting it 50X's and that wouldnt start it either.  The battery is new and fully charged.  I replaced the Starter Solenoid with a brand new one.  Wiring and grounds all look fine.  Starter motor turns.  Fuses are all good, although 15A gets super hot and the plastic around it is slightly melted, but nothing is blown.  Pretty common I think from what I've seen/heard with these bikes.  When I turn the key on and push the electric start button, you hear the starter solenoid clicking and the starter motor turns a couple of times.  but the engine does not start.  Then you try again and just the solenoid clicks.  It acts as if the battery is dying.  Although the battery is fine.  All lights, signals, horn work no problem.  I put a metal screwdriver between the two terminals on the starter solenoid and I'd get some sparks but the starter motor would run as long as I kept the screwdriver there and the bike would start up if I gave it a little gas. I'm confused.  Not sure how to pinpoint the problem.  Could it even be as simple as the electric push start?  I looked it over and it seems fine, but I dont know for sure.  I want to buy a new one, but before I spend the $80+ I want to make sure that the one I have isnt still good.  Any ideas or help would be much appreciated. 

[super pasty white guy]

Sounds like you need to start by cleaning every contact.  The heat in the fuse is a symptom of this.  While it does occur commonly, it's not "normal".  After that you can start tracing everything back to make sure that each connection is good, that the switch is functioning, etc.

Though I'm sure that TT will be along soon to give you more specfic pointers.

spwg

[Muk]

I had a similar problem and it was all in my fuse block, i just replaced all of them with blade style, also check the back of your ignition switch, maybe the voltage drop across the hot fuse is reducing your spark output, do you have a voltmeter?

[TwoTired]

First be aware that *you* are upsetting you .  Not the bike.  Poor thing isn't getting what it needs.  And you just can't speak it's language, yet.

I recently purchased a 1976 Honda CB550F.  When I got it, it started right up using the electric push start button.  A couple of days later, it would not start using the push start button.  I tried kick starting it 50X's and that wouldnt start it either.  The battery is new and fully charged.

No offense.  But, since symptoms are sooo much like a discharged battery, I'd like to see you post actual voltage measurement numbers for the battery.  It could take "a couple of days" for the battery to deplete if the charging system isn't doing things right.  I would feel embarrassed trying to fix a starter, because of a charging issue.

I replaced the Starter Solenoid with a brand new one.  Wiring and grounds all look fine.  Starter motor turns.  Fuses are all good, although 15A gets super hot and the plastic around it is slightly melted, but nothing is blown.  Pretty common I think from what I've seen/heard with these bikes.

It may be common, but it still indicates a faulty condition.  It isn't stopping the motor from starting.  But the condition is waiting to strand you on the roadside soon.  Clean and polish the fuse clip contacts as a preventive.  If the headlight has been replaced with a searchlight, you may even need a larger fuse rating.
 

When I turn the key on and push the electric start button, you hear the starter solenoid clicking and the starter motor turns a couple of times. 

If the battery is full and the starter solenoid is delivering full current to the starter motor, it could be that the starter motor bearings are worn, and the armature is shorting out the battery.  This will make the voltage too low to fire the coils/spark plugs.
But, this will NOT prevent the kick start from working.

but the engine does not start.  Then you try again and just the solenoid clicks.  It acts as if the battery is dying.  Although the battery is fine.  All lights, signals, horn work no problem. 

Again a battery voltage report would be more convincing.

I put a metal screwdriver between the two terminals on the starter solenoid and I'd get some sparks but the starter motor would run as long as I kept the screwdriver there and the bike would start up if I gave it a little gas. I'm confused. 

Me too. It does start or it doesn't?

Not sure how to pinpoint the problem.  Could it even be as simple as the electric push start?  I looked it over and it seems fine, but I dont know for sure.  I want to buy a new one, but before I spend the $80+ I want to make sure that the one I have isnt still good.  Any ideas or help would be much appreciated. 

So, does the bike kick start or not?

Is this a starter problem, battery problem, charging problem, an ignition problem, or a fuel supply problem.  You've got to start isolating possibilities and eliminating variables.

Assumptions:
Battery at or above 12.6V.
Starter motor spins the crankshaft briskly.
The Stop-RUN-Stop switch is in the Run position.
Fuel in reserve position.
Spark plugs are sparking.

If you have all these, your engine should run.

Cheers,

[andy750]

I dont know if you have had bikes before this one or if you have used a kick start before so please forgive me if this is over-simplified.

Kick starting a bike would seem easy but its easy to flood the engine by doing so if you get it wrong. Common mistakes when kick starting:

1. Kicking again and again and again and again hoping that by doing it fast succession it will somehow start - it wont, it will likely flood the engine, coat your plugs in gas making it harder to start
2. Kill switch is off - are you sure its turned to "on"
3. Are your spark plugs ALL firing - check by removing each plug and pressing starter button when plug is held against cylinder head.

To kick start:

1. Make sure kill switch is on
2. Gas is on
3. Ignition is on
4. Choke is on
5. Kick start once fully depressing the lever.
6. Slight twist of the throttle to let some gas into the carbs and release throttle
7. Kick again...should be firing up or just about...
8. Wait 5 secs....kick again...should fire up now....
9. Wait 5 secs and try once more....this should def be firing up now....

This procedure should start the bike if everything is working as it should.

Fresh clean plugs that are sparking help considerably.

good luck
Andy

[.RJ]

I had a similar problem with a CB400F - there was something in the wiring (maybe corroded connections?) that wouldnt get enough voltage to the starter solenoid.  When I hit the button, it would only send 8V to the solenoid, and it would never work - you may want to make sure you're getting enough voltage to trip the solenoid.... or carry a screwdriver everywhere 

Good luck.

[TwoTired]

OK, the bike does run.  But, you have initial starting issues.

When you bridge the solenoid terminals, are you bridging the large posts, or a small wire terminals on it?  With a good battery, the two small wires on the solenoid can be connected to each battery terminal (disconnect from bike wiring).  This should energize the solenoid and the starter should spin briskly. (select neutral!)

Theories about spark issues....
Poor spark can can result from low system voltage, or high resistance in the wires/connections/switches between battery and coils.  It would nice to know what voltage is being delivered to the coils.
Poor points contacts and or condensers, can also make starting difficult.  If you have resistor plugs and resistor plug caps, this can lower spark potential, as can old spark plugs or bad spark plug caps.  A coating of soot on the spark plugs will also make starting/running problematic. Carefully check for cracks in the spark plug wire that may allow the spark energy to escape before reaching the spark plug gap.

Do you know how to operate the choke when the bike is cold?

Do you have two issues?  Or, just one?

Cheers,

[TwoTired]

New does not guarantee good.  Applies to both solenoid AND battery.

I STILL want to see a voltage reading from your battery.  Particularly during the end of starter turning the crank.  But, static voltage and with key on would also be helpful data points.   
Battery voltage while the engine is running at idle and 4K rpm would also be informative.

it could be that the starter motor bearings are worn, and the armature is shorting out the battery

You can't see electricity.  That's why meters were invented to represent what is going on in the circuit.

If you can't/won't analyze the circuit with subjective data.  Your only recourse is to keep replacing parts until it works to your satisfaction.

Your call...

Cheers,

[bryanj]

Is the starter button any good also just cos the solenoid is new dont mean its good!

[Jay B]

 I can NOT get the bike to kick start.  ALthough once I get the bike started by holding the screw driver on the solenoid posts, if I shut the bike off, it then starts right up using the electric push start and/or it will kick start with one kick. 

Besides electrical issues, this sounds like the valves might be too tight.

[TwoTired]

Quite possible your starter button switch is drying.  If there has ever been brake fluid from the master leaking into that control housing, then it is even likely.

The yellow/red wire is fed 12V by the switch when pressed.  This is half of what the solenoid needs to energize.  The other half it needs is 12V return (neg) which is supplied by the neutral switch or the clutch switch when the lever is pulled in. (The Green/Red wires.)

If the starter switch contacts have turned faulty, it may diminish voltage to the solenoid through high resistance contacts.

The starter button also routes power to the headlight when NOT pressed.  So, it is relevant information to know if your headlight is operating brightly.  Both the headlight and the starter solenoid get 12V power from the same Black wire going into the bar control. The button just changes power routing when the button is pressed.

There are two black wires that deliver power into the bar control.  One goes to the Stop-run-stop switch to power the coils, the other powers the headlight or solenoid.  Neither the coils or the starter switch can do their job if the black wire delivery routes aren't delivering the full battery voltage.  The Black wires distributed about the bike are fed power from the ignition switch.  The key switch may also be faulty and reduce voltage through it's contacts.  The switch gets power from the Red wires leading back to the fuse terminals.  We already alerted you about faulty contacts at that point.  The fuse gets power through another red wire that goes though several connector before it attaches to the battery at the large solenoid post.

You could jumper the Yellow/red wire to Black and see if the starter spins, bypassing the starter button switch.  If you are satisfied that works reliably, you could replace the starter switch.
I would put a voltmeter on the Yellow/red wire at the solenoid.  Activate the circuit and determine if voltage loss coincides with lack of function.
Then I would put a voltmeter on the Black wire that feeds the starter switch and repeat the test.  If the voltage stays high when the starter loses function, then the switch is condemned as the problem source.

Note.  If the black wires feeding the bar control lose full 12 V power, one of those is coil power.  If kick starting is an issue (which I still have not determined), the black wire power source is more suspect than the starter button itself.

Well, that's the best I can do with the information at hand.

Good luck!