Author Topic: Phaedrus: CB750 RestoMod - Update: 09/23/21 w/ new video  (Read 870188 times)

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Offline MCRider

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 03/10/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #2675 on: March 18, 2013, 11:34:19 AM »
Ron,

As Scooby would say, Wrut-row! 
Nothing time and $ can't make right one way or another.

David
Yup. Got a plan with MRieck. Gotta find time to box it up. Workload really high.

But a nice upgrade it will be. And still totally streetable.

He says he vacuum tests the finished head for leaks! Cool!

I'll have the piston cyl clearance checked and fixed if necessary. And maybe re-ring it if necessary. That should do it.

Taking nothing away from APE, CycleX etc. Just gotta pick one and Mike's it.
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Ron
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 03/10/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #2676 on: March 20, 2013, 01:47:49 AM »
G'Day Ron, don't be too embarrassed mate, mine's been making a suspicious "Tick tick" noise since I built it many years ago. I've no doubt the Arias pistons and Megacycle 125/75 cam are at fault, so I'll need to rip it down this winter and make it better.

It's not the source of the smoke though, and with the 29mm CR's, it'd do 120 MPH @ 11000 RPM in third gear. (I know, there's no need, they run out of power at 9500, but I ran out of road before I ran out of gears.....) Measure your piston to wall clearance and your ring end gaps (and check the ring orientation) and you'll find the source of the smoke, methinks.... Cheers, Terry. ;D   
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 03/10/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #2677 on: March 20, 2013, 05:45:05 AM »
G'Day Ron, don't be too embarrassed mate, mine's been making a suspicious "Tick tick" noise since I built it many years ago. I've no doubt the Arias pistons and Megacycle 125/75 cam are at fault, so I'll need to rip it down this winter and make it better.

It's not the source of the smoke though, and with the 29mm CR's, it'd do 120 MPH @ 11000 RPM in third gear. (I know, there's no need, they run out of power at 9500, but I ran out of road before I ran out of gears.....) Measure your piston to wall clearance and your ring end gaps (and check the ring orientation) and you'll find the source of the smoke, methinks.... Cheers, Terry. ;D
That makes me feel better. The hit mark is a little strange. Its right where the slope of the dome rolls over into the slope of the pocket. ITs not in the pocket itself. So they just didn't take enough material off, or the slope of the pocket was too steep.

I agree with the cyl idea.  The cost to me of the headwork and cyl machining was amortized many years ago. It was done in 2000. So Mike gets everything as though it were a new project. Hopefully the porting work is acceptable as that won't be done over. But the used Manly valves and the K0 guides are under suspicion and rather than take a chance they get replaced. With the OS intakevalves and a fersh valve job.

My embarrasng admission is that I left the cyls on tthe shelf for many years and they coated with a slight rust. I honed it out, but that could be a source of smoke. If I need new sleeves and bore so be it.

I guess one can see hit marks anywhere. But usually I'd see them at about 6 oclock (or 12 depending on orientation.  With the head laying on the bench, intakes nearest, the hit marks are like 3:30 and 8:30. 2 marks n each valve.

But back to your spec, I'd give the cyls at least a 50/50 chance of being the source and everything is getting the going over. No variables left to chance.

I'm excited, going with the 1.5mm over intake valves. Zoom   ;)  (Relatively speaking)
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 10:34:40 AM by MCRider »
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 03/10/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #2678 on: March 20, 2013, 04:42:31 PM »
The head is on its way to Mike's. Cyls tomorrow if I can steal the time.   :D

I'm excited!
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Ron
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Offline CBJoe

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 03/10/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #2679 on: March 20, 2013, 06:20:59 PM »
Sweet.... are you going to try and get Phaedrus running for the Mods vs Rockers down at Melody Inn this year? 

I'm set on having my Yammy XS750 Built by then.  Dropping off Frame, wheels, etc to Indy Powder Coating next week and have just dropped lots of $$ on parts to get it all built up!  I even found a Never Installed Hooker 3-1-3 Exhaust System from the 70's to use :)

Cheers, Joe

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Offline MCRider

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 03/10/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #2680 on: March 20, 2013, 06:38:22 PM »
Sweet.... are you going to try and get Phaedrus running for the Mods vs Rockers down at Melody Inn this year? 

I'm set on having my Yammy XS750 Built by then.  Dropping off Frame, wheels, etc to Indy Powder Coating next week and have just dropped lots of $$ on parts to get it all built up!  I even found a Never Installed Hooker 3-1-3 Exhaust System from the 70's to use :)

Cheers, Joe
Actually, yes the M v R is our unspoken goal.

Your ExCess project sounds sweet.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2013, 10:57:16 AM by MCRider »
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Offline Old Scrambler

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 03/10/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #2681 on: March 20, 2013, 06:55:13 PM »
Is it possible your pistons are installed backwards or in the wrong holes?
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 03/10/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #2682 on: March 20, 2013, 08:06:29 PM »
Is it possible your pistons are installed backwards or in the wrong holes?
The flycuts are such that its easy to tell from looking. All exhausts are forward. A proper piston is in a proper hole. In that the Ex flycuts of 1 and 2 are near each other; same for 3-4.

#1 could have been swapped with #3; #2 and 4 could have been swapped. But that's all. The machinist did not mark which piston went where. Don't know if this was an oversight or simply not necessary as they were all so close.  By my reckoning anyway, digital caliper, there was no diff in any piston skirt. Using the same ring all bores were identcal.

It would be nice to know, as Terry alluded. The cyls will soon also be in the hands of experts and the pistons will be fitted to their one and only bores. Even if resleeving is required.

I am curious as when I pull the cyls if there is a broken ring from my install. But at least 3 chambers seem to have been drenched in oil, and I don't thik I'm that hamfisted.
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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 03/10/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #2683 on: March 21, 2013, 11:02:19 AM »
Sweet.... are you going to try and get Phaedrus running for the Mods vs Rockers down at Melody Inn this year? 

Cheers, Joe

Do you know the date yet? I googled it but no hits.
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Offline Raef

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 03/10/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #2684 on: March 21, 2013, 11:36:02 AM »
I claim to be no expert, but if your check valve was bad and the crank case was sporting all the oil instead of the oil tank, it's a wonder it ran at all not to mention break something (starter, rod, piston) oil just don't seem to compress like air  ;D

So it's probably lucky the oil found its way past the rings

Still lurking
Mark

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 03/10/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #2685 on: March 21, 2013, 11:48:49 AM »
I claim to be no expert, but if your check valve was bad and the crank case was sporting all the oil instead of the oil tank, it's a wonder it ran at all not to mention break something (starter, rod, piston) oil just don't seem to compress like air  ;D

So it's probably lucky the oil found its way past the rings

Still lurking
Mark
YEah the jury is still out on exactly what hapened in what order, etc. We may never know, as my goal is to fix everything.  The articles on the British wet sumpiing problems were encouraging that was it, but after fixing the valve it still smoked. My "build buddy BRuce" encouraged me to take it apart. I was still of the mind, maybe it will break in with some running. But with his encouragement we ripped it open, to find the valves been kissing the pistons. Glad I didn't run it more.

I'm not real sure that CB750s can generate much pressure as its a 180d crank; 2 up 2 down.

So now we just treat it a a new top end and forget the past.   :D
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Ron
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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 03/10/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #2686 on: March 21, 2013, 07:02:01 PM »
Brief Backstory: The engine started last summer. Appeared at first to be OK. But after a few minutes, rather than reducing smoking it began to smoke more (tailpipe.)

Along with this it became apparrent it was wet sumping. This was covered several pages back. And fixed.  I since also learned that with British bikes at least, wet sumping contributes to smking. So my hopes were raised that was our problem. But upon restart it still smoked.

BBB encouraged me nt to hold out for a "breakin" period fixing it. Suck it up and disassemble. And so we have. Possibilites are that the K0 exhaust guides were leaking. And/Or the valves are rattling arund in the guides (new guides, used valves). Or next in suspicion, improper assy of rings, broken rings, and lastly per Terry, the overbore was overbored.

With the head off we immediately see the intake valves have been kissing the pistons.


Regardless of the source of the smoke, good thing I ceased and desisted on running the motor further. The head is halfway to Mike's at this point.  All variables, potential and otherwise, will be eliminated.

On the the cyls, they came off sweetly. Nothing like a recent assembly for ease of takedown.

Good news, no rings were broken, orientation wsa proper. So I'm glad of that. I can do some thngs right.  Tip for removing piston pin clips. Insert a long #3 screwdriver in the pin. When you flip the clip out it will be captured on the shaft of the driver.

One suspicious thing though, the psitons seem awful sloppy in the bores. But I'm a layman, don't really have an experienced feel for that.


So the cyls will be shipped tomorrow. Agaiin Mike can scope that out for me.

Assuming I'll be waiting 2-4 weeks for return of parts, the next few shop days will be turned to getting our old Suzuki Burgman back on the road. It may become my regular rider, as it doesn't require foot controls and that may suit me better going forward.
 
« Last Edit: March 21, 2013, 07:15:29 PM by MCRider »
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Offline Vinhead1957

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 03/21/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #2687 on: March 21, 2013, 07:51:55 PM »
Intake valves touching pistons ?  Was the cam timed properly? It did start! Were the valves adjusted to tight? Where as they didn't close all the way? Those valves could be junk. They tend to bend when they hit pistons. Sorry, just trying to prepare you for the worst. Look to the head gasket for clues to the oil problem. Missing o rings? Check double check the assembly procedure

You have a lot of time and money invested but the reward will be when you solve the riddle. Good luck

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 03/21/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #2688 on: March 21, 2013, 08:09:51 PM »
Intake valves touching pistons ?  Was the cam timed properly? It did start! Were the valves adjusted to tight? Where as they didn't close all the way? Those valves could be junk. They tend to bend when they hit pistons. Sorry, just trying to prepare you for the worst. Look to the head gasket for clues to the oil problem. Missing o rings? Check double check the assembly procedure

You have a lot of time and money invested but the reward will be when you solve the riddle. Good luck
I degreed the cam with a wheel and dial indicator. The pistons are ARIAS, 888cc. I've lost track of the CR. At least 10.5 to one maybe 12:1.

I should have "clayed" the pistons. But I thought by using a low lift, nearly stock cam I could get away with it.

The valves will be replaced, regardless of condition, with a set from MRieck. The upgrade will be the intakes are 1.5mm larger, zoom. Mike says this is great for a bigger engine, I'm sure.  He'll guide me to avoid the kissing problem once again. The piston domes will be trimmed down a tad.
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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 03/21/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #2689 on: March 21, 2013, 09:47:30 PM »
Ron, she will be set right after some more love I am sure.  Glad thing didn't reveal any other unexpected surprises, the loose fit the pistons not withstanding...

Hope she comes back together smoothly and you can enjoy Phaedrus II as you imagined you would.
Burgmans are cool bikes. Is yours the 400 or 600cc version?  Friend in Oregon had one and with it's storage it was a capable small grocery getter...

Your weather continuing to be nice?  It has transitioned here from winter to the start of summer with temps in the high 70s and up to 80s a few days even at our nearly 5000 foot of altitude.

David
David- back in the desert SW!

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 03/21/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #2690 on: March 22, 2013, 12:42:05 PM »
Ron, she will be set right after some more love I am sure.  Glad thing didn't reveal any other unexpected surprises, the loose fit the pistons not withstanding...

Hope she comes back together smoothly and you can enjoy Phaedrus II as you imagined you would.
Burgmans are cool bikes. Is yours the 400 or 600cc version?  Friend in Oregon had one and with it's storage it was a capable small grocery getter...

Your weather continuing to be nice?  It has transitioned here from winter to the start of summer with temps in the high 70s and up to 80s a few days even at our nearly 5000 foot of altitude.

David
David: Thanks for the words. IT's going to be bettter than imagined, can't wait.

ITs a 400. Bought it new in 2005, the last bike of many my wife rode. Had a lot of nice trips, me on the ill-fated FJR, she on the Burgie.  But if I can ride the 400 confidently, I'd probably trade it in on a 650. More power, ABS brakes, elect windshield and mirrors, etc. Mini FJR. Other maxi scooters I'd like is the Honda Integra (not available in US) and the BMW 650GT (too expensive but very nice).

Weather here in Indy has dropped below trend, 2-4 in snow on Sunday expected. Won't stick though.
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Ron
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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 03/21/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #2691 on: March 22, 2013, 06:20:09 PM »
The pistons, rings, pins and cyls are on their way to Mike ETA Wed. ITs out of our hands now.

A box from Amsterdam came today. Yay!


From forum member Lecram at cb750faces.com

I got 2 covers to make sure I have a matching pair. I have one OEM cover, but i didn't want to take the chance that if I only bought one more, they wouldn't match. Maybe the shades of black or some finish detail would be off. When its all over I'll have one to sell.  Got 2 new crimp rings also. Just in case the originals didn't come off cleanly. And I knw the speedo ring is slightly rusted.

I talked to the owner at ForeignSpeedo today and he told me what they needed to modify the drive on the speedo head. You roll the bike 52'9" (1/100 of a mile) and count the revolutions of the cable. Do it 3 times and average. They take that and do their magic.  (For those new to the thread, since I dropped the front wheel from 19 to 18" the speedo needs recalibrating)

We'll replace the faces to K0, different color and an 8500 rpm redline, also from Lecram.
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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 03/21/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #2692 on: March 22, 2013, 06:40:36 PM »
But Ron, after Mike gets through with your head it will be pulling strong all the way to 9800 rpm...
Don't go noodling on us now... winder up and feel the rush.

Neat package from Amsterdam... that was a few brews worth in that package...

David- back in the desert SW!

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 03/21/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #2693 on: March 22, 2013, 06:48:34 PM »
But Ron, after Mike gets through with your head it will be pulling strong all the way to 9800 rpm...
Don't go noodling on us now... winder up and feel the rush.

Neat package from Amsterdam... that was a few brews worth in that package...
Could be, not what I'm going for. But time will tell.   ;D   ;)
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Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
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Offline Vinhead1957

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 03/21/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #2694 on: March 22, 2013, 07:11:10 PM »
Looking at your cylinder pix, did you have O rings in the wider spaced holes in the first build?

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 03/21/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #2695 on: March 22, 2013, 07:22:33 PM »
Looking at your cylinder pix, did you have O rings in the wider spaced holes in the first build?
No, mine was a earlier K2 that only had the 2 total ORing set up. The head gasket, as many are, was punched to accept the early 2 riing set up, or the later setup with the 8 extra ORings.

If you're new to the deal, you can actually leave the 8 ORings out and if you're assembled properly, it won't make a difference.
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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 03/21/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #2696 on: March 22, 2013, 09:49:20 PM »
Looking good Ron, and thanks for the tip re: the speedo rings from Marcel, I didn't know he was selling them, so I've just ordered a set, cutting/levering off the old rings was putting me off restoring a set of K1 gauges he sold me new faces for a couple of years ago.

If your pistons feel at all "sloppy" in the bores without the rings fitted, your clearances are probably too big. If you sit your cylinder block on a bench with a sheet of carboard between the table surface and the cylinder sleeve bottoms, drop a piston into each bore. If they drop straight to the bottom, the clearances are too big, but if they slowly sink to the bottom or even need a little push due to air pressure from trapped air underneath, your clearances are good.

Of course measuring with a feeler gauge (no more than .002" clearance with piston hard against other side of bore) is the most accurate method, but the "piston slide" method is a good way to start. Cheers, Terry. ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 03/21/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #2697 on: March 23, 2013, 06:23:26 AM »
Looking good Ron, and thanks for the tip re: the speedo rings from Marcel, I didn't know he was selling them, so I've just ordered a set, cutting/levering off the old rings was putting me off restoring a set of K1 gauges he sold me new faces for a couple of years ago.

If your pistons feel at all "sloppy" in the bores without the rings fitted, your clearances are probably too big. If you sit your cylinder block on a bench with a sheet of carboard between the table surface and the cylinder sleeve bottoms, drop a piston into each bore. If they drop straight to the bottom, the clearances are too big, but if they slowly sink to the bottom or even need a little push due to air pressure from trapped air underneath, your clearances are good.

Of course measuring with a feeler gauge (no more than .002" clearance with piston hard against other side of bore) is the most accurate method, but the "piston slide" method is a good way to start. Cheers, Terry. ;D

Same here on the rings. Sure it has been done cleanly before. But at this point I,m not cutting corners

Interesting test. I think mine would have failed for sure, the cyls are on their way to Mike. But I dropped the pistons in from the top stopping at the oil ring. With the skirt fully in the bore, they really rattled around. It will be interesting what Mike says, with a real measuring stick.
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Ron
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"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 03/21/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #2698 on: March 23, 2013, 08:42:16 AM »
I just put it together: Lecram = Marcel backwards!
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 03/21/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #2699 on: March 23, 2013, 09:10:20 AM »
Terry........thanks for the tip 8) 8)

Ron....I'd expect to be locating a replacement cylinder-block. The pistons should accompany the block so the boring of each cylinder matches the piston.  When you get everything back for paint and assembly..........each piston should be marked for the hole to which it belongs. I'm sure Mike is on top of this and probably has spares in the attic ;D ;D

Your old block may just be waiting to be fitted for a 915cc kit. :) :)
Dennis in Wisconsin
'64 Triumph Cub & '74 Honda CB750 Bonneville Salt Flats AMA Record Holder (6)
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