Author Topic: Phaedrus: CB750 RestoMod - Update: 09/23/21 w/ new video  (Read 879412 times)

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Offline brandEn

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 11/18/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #3000 on: November 18, 2013, 08:20:45 PM »
Oh yea I see now.

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 11/18/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #3001 on: November 19, 2013, 10:19:09 PM »
Out of curiosity: how did the Webcam timing finally turn out? I ended up doing the last one as a 50-50 split, so it came out like an old Dodge V8 engine ("A" blocks) cam, with equal opening vs. closing for the intake valve degrees. When that was done I checked the exhaust(s) and they were also 50-50 degree splits, so I left it that way. The owner noticed it immediately when he rode off.

He installed it into the stock cam sprocket bolt holes about 2 years ago when he rebuilt the engine (836cc low-compression version) and it became a high-RPM engine. This bothered him because he has stock springs, so he wanted the power brought down somewhat in the band. I measured the stock setup as being 5 BTDC intake opening and [a whole bunch, like 50 ATC closing], so when I slotted the sprocket I moved it to 22 BTC and about that many ATC. I had to skip a tooth or two to get it there, as my slot was limited by the lightening holes in the sprocket.

After all this, it started almost as soon as I touched the start button, a major change. He said it pulls much better in the 4000-7000 RPM range now, too. He's afraid to go over 8000, probably good considering the tall lift (it's a 41a cam) and stock springs. He has had several nuts come loose on the adjusters, though. The whole bike is coming to me in April for a "fix these things" tour, including the oil leak that cropped up on the front of the head gasket.
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 11/18/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #3002 on: November 20, 2013, 06:03:18 AM »
Out of curiosity: how did the Webcam timing finally turn out? I ended up doing the last one as a 50-50 split, so it came out like an old Dodge V8 engine ("A" blocks) cam, with equal opening vs. closing for the intake valve degrees. When that was done I checked the exhaust(s) and they were also 50-50 degree splits, so I left it that way. The owner noticed it immediately when he rode off.

He installed it into the stock cam sprocket bolt holes about 2 years ago when he rebuilt the engine (836cc low-compression version) and it became a high-RPM engine. This bothered him because he has stock springs, so he wanted the power brought down somewhat in the band. I measured the stock setup as being 5 BTDC intake opening and [a whole bunch, like 50 ATC closing], so when I slotted the sprocket I moved it to 22 BTC and about that many ATC. I had to skip a tooth or two to get it there, as my slot was limited by the lightening holes in the sprocket.

After all this, it started almost as soon as I touched the start button, a major change. He said it pulls much better in the 4000-7000 RPM range now, too. He's afraid to go over 8000, probably good considering the tall lift (it's a 41a cam) and stock springs. He has had several nuts come loose on the adjusters, though. The whole bike is coming to me in April for a "fix these things" tour, including the oil leak that cropped up on the front of the head gasket.
WE haven't finished yet. For reference we're working with a 41 grind, just a skosh busier than stock. Maybe even comparable to a K0 cam.

When we did it a year ago, by accident the first try was almost a split, so we left it there.

This time the first try was nearly a split, but in my infinite wisdom we're trying to get it closer and instead went further away and haven't been able to bring it back.

What we are trying to do is calculate the lobe centers and bring them as close together as possible. In the several threads on the subject, it seems the conclusion that you can't trust the data card and should resort to matching lobe centers. I was within 3.5°.  MAybe that's as close as I can get?

For your customers bike you may want to get the slotted sprocket and the titanium tappet nuts.
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1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline MCRider

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 11/18/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #3003 on: November 21, 2013, 07:19:47 PM »
A belated picture of my set up. Steel strap fr and rr for dial mount. Moroso pointer on starter hold down bolt.


New dial indicator has a magnetic base with an "on/off" switch. How does a magnet respond to a "on/off switch?
IT does work though, I tried it.

Deg Wheel mounted on rotor bolt.



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1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
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Offline knowsnothing

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 11/18/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #3004 on: November 22, 2013, 06:53:40 AM »

New dial indicator has a magnetic base with an "on/off" switch. How does a magnet respond to a "on/off switch?
IT does work though, I tried it.


I think it lifts and lowers the magnet.

 Looking good MC!  I saw your head over at Mikes when we swung by his place for a visit.  Can't wait to see the start up vid. 
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1978 CB750k Blue - for sale
1974 CB375F Faded Black - had to have that 6th gear
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1973 CB350F TBD - in many pieces

Offline MCRider

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 11/18/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #3005 on: November 22, 2013, 07:35:49 AM »

New dial indicator has a magnetic base with an "on/off" switch. How does a magnet respond to a "on/off switch?
IT does work though, I tried it.


I think it lifts and lowers the magnet.

 Looking good MC!  I saw your head over at Mikes when we swung by his place for a visit.  Can't wait to see the start up vid.
I figured it must be something like that.

Mike has been a great resource, very helpful. Hoping for the best, start up soon.
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"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 11/18/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #3006 on: November 25, 2013, 09:59:54 AM »
Well, we got it. Cam timing that is. We first had to rig up a new bracket for the exhaust side for the new dial indicator. It is much beefier than the old one I'd been using, so it takes up more space and is harder to get set just right. But with the right bracket all's well. Bruce came up with it.

Then it took several tries. In fact, we were real close when Bruce and visitor Ed "Phoenix" called it a day. I stayed on a few minutes longer. With just  the slightest touch, barely visible movement, it measured 103 intake and 104 exhaust. That's close enough.

FYI: Responding to several threads about the discrepancies between the spec cards and what we can really measure. My WebCAm41 had a duration of 270 and several of you had not measured that (I never tried). I found a place on the website that said "Advertised Duration 270. Duration at 50thou lift 237" !!

I took Mike's advice and ignored what "should be" and just worked with what is. IE: Get the lobe centers as close as possible, and run it.

« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 06:52:57 PM by MCRider »
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Offline brandEn

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 11/18/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #3007 on: November 25, 2013, 10:07:32 AM »
I had the same confusion when I timed my Megacycle cam. It was a few degrees from the advertised spec and I just lined up lobe centers and let it be. The OCD in me had a hard time accepting this but with enough reassurance from the forum I have learned this is completely normal. Now we know!

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 11/18/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #3008 on: November 25, 2013, 12:15:00 PM »
Boys, we are all in the same boat. I'm currently playing with mine. I have 2 full pages of calculations. Started off on my Megacycle 125-75 at 105 int and 108 exh. Had to reposition my sprocket twice. I tend to rotate it the wrong direction too. LMAO. Frustrating at the least. I'm just being too anal and thinking too much. It's in the cold garage right now all by itself with the wheel, pointer, and magnetic base all set up waiting for me to come back. My last measurements were ~ 105.5 and 105.5. Book says 105 & 104.5. Which wins out? Horseshoes and hand grenades or anal retentive? I'm thinking I'll just verify my numbers starting with TDC first then bolt that sum#$%* down. Do we realize that when we are done and we look back we will realize how easy it COULD be once we know WTF we're doing?! 
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 11/18/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #3009 on: November 25, 2013, 03:53:25 PM »
........ Do we realize that when we are done and we look back we will realize how easy it COULD be once we know WTF we're doing?! 

At least all these posts & threads are saving the money on buying that 'Cam Timing' video. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Of course for the Sidecar's XS I'm going to have to do surgery on a rocker cover like ffj did for the 550. :(
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 03:56:52 PM by Tintop »
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 11/18/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #3010 on: December 02, 2013, 06:36:14 PM »
The weather warmed up a bit and Ed rode his Brown K1 Phoenix over to sit in on a session.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=131689.msg1470056#msg1470056

Bruce noticed a strange thing (picture coming), a 12mm wrench neatly tucked in between a bolt and bracket on the luggage rack! Pretty funny. We all know what a smooth ride the CB is.   
ITs nice to see a real CB750 in the driveway. Reminds us of where we came from and what we're doing. Course the resultant slobberfest cuts into shop time...

Having decided that 103/104 lobe centers is about as close as I can get it, went on to step two. Valve/piston tops clearance. Mike suggested setting the engine at the point where the valves are closest to the pistons. Then with a spare rocker box in place, stick a lever in the tappet inspection hole and lever down on the tappet. Doing this we had plenty of clearance, intake and exhaust. Mike was available for Sunday PM phone consult, great service, hope I didn't disturb his football game too much..

Went on to set the tappet clearance: WEBCAM 41 = 4thou intake; 5thou exhaust.

Installed the real rocker box. Reused the old (30 minutes max) rocker box gasket, with one side gooped with Gasgacinch. Shouldn't leak.

Removed the degree wheel, Retorqued the rotor bolt. Put it in 5th gear and stand on the brake. Take it to 60ft lbs.

Hope to get some evenings in on details. Put the pipes and carbs on soon and at least start it on the umbilical tank.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 06:38:35 PM by MCRider »
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"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 12/01/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #3011 on: December 02, 2013, 06:44:25 PM »
Sounds like your getting very close Ron.  So what are you going to do for the rest of the winter? ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D
1977 CB550/4 Cafe - Speed Warrior / BOTM 03/11
1980 CB750F (project)
Whittaker GBF Vintage Racing Sidecar (XS750 power) - ITG / 151's / CMR Racing Products (SOLD)
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 12/01/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #3012 on: December 03, 2013, 10:49:02 AM »
Sounds like your getting very close Ron.  So what are you going to do for the rest of the winter? ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D

Putting together a box of stuff for Brown's, seems we missed some pieces.  ;)
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1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline CBJoe

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 12/01/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #3013 on: December 03, 2013, 04:23:13 PM »
Nice Brown K1...I'm pretty sure I saw that bike over at the Steer Inn back in somewhere around September.



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Offline MCRider

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 12/01/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #3014 on: December 03, 2013, 04:37:29 PM »
Nice Brown K1...I'm pretty sure I saw that bike over at the Steer Inn back in somewhere around September.
Could be, I'll ask him. But there are 2 nice Brown K1s roaming Indy, the other name eludes me.
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1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline Phoenix

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 12/01/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #3015 on: December 03, 2013, 05:17:14 PM »
I have been at the Steer-In a number of times.  The other brown K1 looks like it just came off the showroom floor.  It is a repaint but you can't find anything that's not perfect.  Only thing I see that's not stock are Hagons on the rear.

When, and if, Ron gets to the point he's satisfied,  he's got my vote for BOM!  There is nothing on this bike that has not been lovingly touched.  I hope he keeps it in his living room.
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Offline CBJoe

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 12/01/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #3016 on: December 03, 2013, 06:17:44 PM »
Yeah...last time we went I saw the one that looks brand spanking new...but I remember multiple brown ones being there so likely we passed each other at the time. I had a silver XS750 there then.

I'll 2nd BOTM ...and then BOTY :)
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Offline CBJoe

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 12/01/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #3017 on: December 03, 2013, 06:25:43 PM »
Sorry to Hijack Ron ;)  Just remembered that I got a pic of one of those brown Beauties
'07 Bonneville Black
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 12/01/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #3018 on: December 03, 2013, 06:41:00 PM »
Sorry to Hijack Ron ;)  Just remembered that I got a pic of one of those brown Beauties
No prob. truly nice.

There was another kay one running around town a few years ago, red, looked the same. Maybe he repainted it. I think he's trying to get under my skin.

On the red one, the wing badges were on backwards. I had to bite my tongue to keep from telling him and raining on his parade. On this one they are too. Coincidence? Does he know and he's just trying to tweak on lookers? (me).

The plot thickens.

If he's the same guy with the restored CT70, it's the same bike.
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Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 12/01/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #3019 on: December 04, 2013, 12:47:25 PM »
Ed's wrench hauler:


Better things to put under the seat, anyway.
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 12/01/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #3020 on: December 10, 2013, 06:14:02 PM »
More steps: Alt cover; Shifter cover; carb boots; carbs; swap out the nice chrome but un spectacular for these chromed finned beauts:


And this:

Finally finish the set off with this:
http://www.cb750cafe.com/products-page/motor-parts-and-accessories/429-2/
Currently out of stock. Talked to Carpy yesterday, he's hoping to have some b4 Xmas.

Next is the #$%* of an exhaust pipe. Then I think we can start it off the umbilical tank.

Last night I had the most lucid, vivid dream, check it out.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=83733.new#new

The last several sessions we've had a welcome spectator Ed (Phoenix). He introduced me to the Cycle World Concourse event. At the RedBull Indy MotoGP.  Thinks that Phaedrus II could have a chance in the Street Special class.  We'll see.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 06:41:21 PM by MCRider »
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"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline slikwilli420

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 12/01/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #3021 on: December 11, 2013, 07:57:35 AM »
Motolanna.com has some really nice finned covers, every one for the engine in fact, all for very decent prices. Might want to give them a shout.
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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 12/01/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #3022 on: December 11, 2013, 12:34:07 PM »
Motolanna.com has some really nice finned covers, every one for the engine in fact, all for very decent prices. Might want to give them a shout.

Great find on the finned covers. I purchased some fork ears from Motolanna this last year -- good quality and fast turn around.  The price on the finned covers beats everyone else out there.  In addition, the parts are advertised as machined from billet, as opposed to the original cast aluminum pieces.  The fit should be spot on.
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 12/01/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #3023 on: December 11, 2013, 12:50:01 PM »
Motolanna.com has some really nice finned covers, every one for the engine in fact, all for very decent prices. Might want to give them a shout.

Great find on the finned covers. I purchased some fork ears from Motolanna this last year -- good quality and fast turn around.  The price on the finned covers beats everyone else out there.  In addition, the parts are advertised as machined from billet, as opposed to the original cast aluminum pieces.  The fit should be spot on.
Yes, nice stuff, thanks for the link. I settled on Carpy's some time ago due to the axle spacer and brake stay. I want them all to look similar, and only have the one more to go.

Maybe next project...no wait that was going to be all Joker stuff. Oh well.
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 12/01/13 w/ new pics
« Reply #3024 on: December 19, 2013, 08:48:06 AM »
Pipes are on!


Look familiar?
Maybe its the nose

http://www.levity.com/corduroy/pirsig.htm

More later.
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."