Author Topic: Phaedrus: CB750 RestoMod - Update: 09/23/21 w/ new video  (Read 876786 times)

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Offline seanbarney41

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Re: Phaedrus: CB750 RestoMod - Leak Down Test: 1/28/18
« Reply #4275 on: January 28, 2018, 06:13:37 PM »
broken valve spring?
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Phaedrus: CB750 RestoMod - Leak Down Test: 1/28/18
« Reply #4276 on: January 28, 2018, 09:46:27 PM »
Well if it's not blowing smoke it can't be broken rings, I presume the piston to cylinder clearances would have been checked when you built the engine Ron, so are some valves not seating? any chance the valves have kissed their pistons and have slightly bent stems?

Or could the valve guides be too tight? That was common on Ducati's back in the 1970's, my 900SS had steel guides from the factory and they used to "nip up" when hot, the fix was to install bronze guides and give them plenty of clearance. Keep us posted, this is interesting! ;D 
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Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Phaedrus: CB750 RestoMod - Leak Down Test: 1/28/18
« Reply #4277 on: January 28, 2018, 11:10:32 PM »
Given Mike R (JMR) has gone through the head it would not be guides being too tight.  Hopefully it is something non-catastrophic or lethal to engine parts.

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Offline Tintop

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Re: Phaedrus: CB750 RestoMod - Leak Down Test: 1/28/18
« Reply #4278 on: January 29, 2018, 06:33:24 AM »
Well if it's not blowing smoke it can't be broken rings, I presume the piston to cylinder clearances would have been checked when you built the engine Ron, so are some valves not seating? any chance the valves have kissed their pistons and have slightly bent stems?

Or could the valve guides be too tight? That was common on Ducati's back in the 1970's, my 900SS had steel guides from the factory and they used to "nip up" when hot, the fix was to install bronze guides and give them plenty of clearance. Keep us posted, this is interesting! ;D 

+1
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Phaedrus: CB750 RestoMod - Leak Down Test: 1/28/18
« Reply #4279 on: January 29, 2018, 02:23:03 PM »
Terry: Not blowing a speck of smoke. In 2016 we ran the crap out of it, at the LSR in OH and several times at the drags, 12 runs in all. And it ran great. My rider admitted he wasn't the best off the line, so our speeds and times weren't great. But it ran great.

The last run of the season, Rick missed the shift into 5th, near the traps, and I was near the starting line in the bleachers and I could hear it, even with that quiet Marshall muffler. He caught 5th and finished with his highest trap speed (106) if I remember correctly and his personal best time. 12.8 I think.

That could have been a time when he kissed a valve. But we are just running a wimpy cam and some pretty hefty springs, so even missing the shift, I can't see kissing a valve.

Anyway, anything's possible at this point. I'd love for it to be a carb problem, but is that even possible?. Or an ignition prob. But with 3 & 4 running so nice, why wouldn't 1 & 2?
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 02:29:11 PM by MCRider »
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Phaedrus: CB750 RestoMod - Leak Down Test: 1/28/18
« Reply #4280 on: January 29, 2018, 02:25:52 PM »
broken valve spring?
I have had the rocker box off and didn't notice any, but I wasn't looking that close either.
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Phaedrus: CB750 RestoMod - Leak Down Test: 1/28/18
« Reply #4281 on: January 29, 2018, 02:54:59 PM »
Considering you have the cover off at this point I think I'd rotate the crank by hand and watch how the valve stems/rocker arms react noting how the rotation feels at the different points in the cycle.
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline KayOne

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Re: Phaedrus: CB750 RestoMod - Leak Down Test: 1/28/18
« Reply #4282 on: January 29, 2018, 03:28:18 PM »
A good leak down with poor compression on cylinder 1 and 2 points to a bad head gasket to me. I would re-torque the head and run the compression test again before tearing it apart.
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Phaedrus: CB750 RestoMod - Leak Down Test: 1/28/18
« Reply #4283 on: January 29, 2018, 04:19:15 PM »
Considering you have the cover off at this point I think I'd rotate the crank by hand and watch how the valve stems/rocker arms react noting how the rotation feels at the different points in the cycle.
Its not off at this point. I had to put it back on to warm the engine up for the leak down test.  But I have rotated the engine, before and after and it all feels good.
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"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline MRieck

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Re: Phaedrus: CB750 RestoMod - Leak Down Test: 1/28/18
« Reply #4284 on: January 31, 2018, 12:42:57 PM »
A good leak down with poor compression on cylinder 1 and 2 points to a bad head gasket to me. I would re-torque the head and run the compression test again before tearing it apart.
Head gasket could be leaking between #1 and #2 cylinders. Worst case is a bent rods and the pistons are sitting lower in the hole. 2% leak is good.
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline MCRider

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Re: Phaedrus: CB750 RestoMod - Leak Down Test: 1/28/18
« Reply #4285 on: January 31, 2018, 01:50:44 PM »
A good leak down with poor compression on cylinder 1 and 2 points to a bad head gasket to me. I would re-torque the head and run the compression test again before tearing it apart.
Head gasket could be leaking between #1 and #2 cylinders. Worst case is a bent rods and the pistons are sitting lower in the hole. 2% leak is good.

Next stop? Take the head off and check everything here and between? Hard to think those APE Crower rods would bend with 80hp max.
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1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Phaedrus: CB750 RestoMod - Leak Down Test: 1/28/18
« Reply #4286 on: January 31, 2018, 02:19:02 PM »
Yeah, the problem I'd have with the head gasket theory is you'd have oil leaks and farting noises which you haven't mentioned Ron, and if you'd done enough damage to bend an APE rod, there'd be significant (noisy) damage to the rest of the top end. I'll be interested in what you find when the head comes off. Cheers, Terry. ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline Stev-o

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Re: Phaedrus: CB750 RestoMod - Leak Down Test: 1/28/18
« Reply #4287 on: January 31, 2018, 02:27:18 PM »
Off with the head!  Curious minds want to know...

No frame kit, right?
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Phaedrus: CB750 RestoMod - Leak Down Test: 1/28/18
« Reply #4288 on: January 31, 2018, 03:25:04 PM »
Ron, run a bore scope down there and see if the valves have kissed the pistons.
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline MCRider

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Re: Phaedrus: CB750 RestoMod - Leak Down Test: 1/28/18
« Reply #4289 on: January 31, 2018, 04:19:09 PM »
Off with the head!  Curious minds want to know...

No frame kit, right?

Yes, I have one of the early style APE frame kit, ca 1975. I can have the head off in an hour.
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"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline MCRider

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Re: Phaedrus: CB750 RestoMod - Leak Down Test: 1/28/18
« Reply #4290 on: January 31, 2018, 05:32:18 PM »
Here's some pics for color:



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Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Phaedrus: CB750 RestoMod - Leak Down Test: 1/28/18
« Reply #4291 on: January 31, 2018, 07:38:45 PM »
Off with the head!  Curious minds want to know.


+1! ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

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Re: Phaedrus: CB750 RestoMod - Leak Down Test: 1/28/18
« Reply #4292 on: January 31, 2018, 08:46:02 PM »
Ron.....how do you like the OTC gauges? Recommend??

May need a new tool for the box. 
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline MRieck

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Re: Phaedrus: CB750 RestoMod - Leak Down Test: 1/28/18
« Reply #4293 on: February 01, 2018, 08:30:50 AM »
A good leak down with poor compression on cylinder 1 and 2 points to a bad head gasket to me. I would re-torque the head and run the compression test again before tearing it apart.
Head gasket could be leaking between #1 and #2 cylinders. Worst case is a bent rods and the pistons are sitting lower in the hole. 2% leak is good.

Next stop? Take the head off and check everything here and between? Hard to think those APE Crower rods would bend with 80hp max.
I think you no choice but to pull the head. Are you running a composite or MLS head gasket Ron?
 Yes...hard to believe those rods would bend but I had a slightly bent #1 rod in my CBX and it did not act that funny in regard to noise.
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Offline scottly

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Re: Phaedrus: CB750 RestoMod - Leak Down Test: 1/28/18
« Reply #4294 on: February 01, 2018, 10:00:21 AM »
Considering you have the cover off at this point I think I'd rotate the crank by hand and watch how the valve stems/rocker arms react noting how the rotation feels at the different points in the cycle.
1+ If the head gasket was leaking that badly it should have shown up with the leak down-test, likewise with a bent valve not closing. If the cam had flat intake lobes, the engine wouldn't be able to inhale any air, so would pass the leak-down but fail the compression test.
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Phaedrus: CB750 RestoMod - Leak Down Test: 1/28/18
« Reply #4295 on: February 01, 2018, 12:28:34 PM »
A good leak down with poor compression on cylinder 1 and 2 points to a bad head gasket to me. I would re-torque the head and run the compression test again before tearing it apart.
Head gasket could be leaking between #1 and #2 cylinders. Worst case is a bent rods and the pistons are sitting lower in the hole. 2% leak is good.

Next stop? Take the head off and check everything here and between? Hard to think those APE Crower rods would bend with 80hp max.
I think you no choice but to pull the head. Are you running a composite or MLS head gasket Ron?
 Yes...hard to believe those rods would bend but I had a slightly bent #1 rod in my CBX and it did not act that funny in regard to noise.
I used a MLS gasket from CycleX.

OFF WITH ITS HEAD!   :D
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

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Re: Phaedrus: CB750 RestoMod - Leak Down Test: 1/28/18
« Reply #4296 on: February 01, 2018, 12:29:21 PM »
Considering you have the cover off at this point I think I'd rotate the crank by hand and watch how the valve stems/rocker arms react noting how the rotation feels at the different points in the cycle.
1+ If the head gasket was leaking that badly it should have shown up with the leak down-test, likewise with a bent valve not closing. If the cam had flat intake lobes, the engine wouldn't be able to inhale any air, so would pass the leak-down but fail the compression test.

I'll do that just for fun, who knows?
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline MCRider

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Re: Phaedrus: CB750 RestoMod - Leak Down Test: 1/28/18
« Reply #4297 on: February 01, 2018, 12:30:47 PM »
Ron.....how do you like the OTC gauges? Recommend??

May need a new tool for the box.

Yeah, pretty cool piece of kit. Probably never use it again, but fun to own.
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

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Re: Phaedrus: CB750 RestoMod - Leak Down Test: 1/28/18
« Reply #4298 on: February 01, 2018, 06:51:58 PM »
Considering you have the cover off at this point I think I'd rotate the crank by hand and watch how the valve stems/rocker arms react noting how the rotation feels at the different points in the cycle.
1+ If the head gasket was leaking that badly it should have shown up with the leak down-test, likewise with a bent valve not closing. If the cam had flat intake lobes, the engine wouldn't be able to inhale any air, so would pass the leak-down but fail the compression test.

I'll do that just for fun, who knows?
Ron, it just occurred to me that the leak-down test may be in question. Try doing it again on the #4 cylinder, and tightening the exhaust valve tappet screw (cause it's easiest to get to) and note if there is any change as the valve is opened off it's seat. The more the adjuster screw is tightened, the greater the leakage should show on the gauges.
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Phaedrus: CB750 RestoMod - Leak Down Test: 1/28/18
« Reply #4299 on: March 25, 2018, 03:59:08 PM »
Its certainly been a while since I've updated. A combination of a good business and Bradykinesia connected with my Parkinson's ("Bradykinesia is defined by slow movement and an impaired ability to move the body swiftly on command. It's most commonly a symptom of Parkinson's disease...) tends to eat up all my time. Along with about 6 hours a week of physical therapy... well that's my pity party for today.

We got the top end of the engine off. There is no indication of valve/piston contact, blown gaskets, broken rings, nothing. On picture will show how the #1 piston stands proud of the cylinder by about 5thou (thickness of the machinists scale in the pic.)

I love how the top end looks, The titanium bits have a different patina, the OS cyl head nuts (13mm hex) and the trick cam chain tensioner. And the Arias pistons look mean. It came apart very uniformly, all the cam bolts were uniformly tight, cyl nuts also. It started at a tap of the button and pumped 210psi on all 4.

Anyway, the floor is now open for discussion. Remember the problem is: After running it real hard at the drags, about 12 times, and one run for LSR in Wilmington OH, (a disappointing 125mph at WOT) we parked it and disassembled the bottom end. It was seeping from everywhere, which would manifest itself in a drip here and there. But I wanted it to be dry. I think we accomplished that, got it back together, using a new 4-2 pipe from CycleX. I wanted to dyno it again for the pipe. Took it to the local Ducati shop, finally found a decent shop, and they are only about 6 miles away. It never sounded good to me, like it was running on 3 cylinders. I went over the tune and took the carbs apart. That seemed to help. But the Dyno run was pathetic, like 49hp!  Prior runs were north of 80 IIRC, which was still lower than expectations, but the pipe and cam were holding it back I think.

So, new compression test put #1 at about 80psi, #2 about 120, and 3 and 4 were OK at 210. I'm working from memory on 1 & 2 , lets just say they were pitiful. Bot a leakdown tester and all4 were the Same! less than 5% IIRC.  Maybe something happened at the LSR run?

So here we are. I want to change back to conventional gaskets. I'm not thrilled with the MLS, they seeped oil at the base gasket and head gasket, uniformly coating the respective top fins. It would have been enough to drip if run long enough.

2 or 3 base gaskets may buy some height on the cyl block. Or maybe the piston needs to be checked for its squish area which I think was put on later, can't remember. Oh yeah, I'll want to put a big dog cam in it when finally back together, since I won't be touring on it. Any suggestions. CycleX seems to have a good selection. After all this, I won't settle for less than 90.   ;D





At least we got one thing fixed. The throttle would snap back, but I could tell it was hung up on something. We tried the routing, etc. nothing worked. Took  the throttle pipe out and realized that it was rubbing the wheel in against the inside of the quick throttle body. So about 5 minutes of rubbing it on sandpaper took about 20thou off of it. Now it snaps back with vigor. Don't ever let your controls work improperly.



So that's it for now. I'll probably be throwing in pics and comments way out of chronologicla order, but we'll sort through them!

Thx!  :D

PS: We chucked the head up in the vice and poured solvent in each port. No leakage.


Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."