Topic: Phaedrus: CB750 RestoMod - Update: 09/23/21 w/ new video

[Terry in Australia]

No worries mate, and I'm glad you didn't take offence, as I'm certainly a fan of what you've done so far. Keep going and don't forget to post some more pics! Cheers, Terry.

[MCRider]

No worries mate, and I'm glad you didn't take offence, as I'm certainly a fan of what you've done so far. Keep going and don't forget to post some more pics! Cheers, Terry.

Sometimes it takes another eye to make me look again.

The righteous place for the cooler is where yours is, above the headers, below the lower fork tree. The horns could go between the frame rails above the filter, but below the base gasket line. At $20 pair, they are expendable, or less critical than the cooler as far as heat and road debris. If they simply can't live there, I can weld a tab on the engine guards, and that can be done after the build out is otherwise complete, so it won't slow anything down. I'll mock that up Sunday. That gives max airflow to the engine which will need it.

[Ichiban 4]

G'Day Guys, are you missing me yet? No? Oh well..............

Now I've only ever seen those coolers mounted with the spigots on the top, so my advice would be to flip it around. For your info, your adapter feeds oil from the spigot on the ignition points side, and returns it on the alternator side.

I love what you're doing with that bike, it's a real quality build, and you should be justifiably proud of it, well done!

Having said that, locating the cooler down amongst the headers is just silly, and will probably heat your oil, rather than cool it. Kinda like mounting your cars radiator on your exhaust manifold..........

No offence meant, but I'm more a "function over form" kinda guy, so if it was me I'd ditch those horns, or mount them out of the way, you'll only use them now and then, but your cooler will be working all summer, at least, so should be sitting up there in the cool air, not mounted on a heat source, getting showered with rocks and mud.  

Apart from that, I'm a fan, keep up the good work! Cheers, Terry.

_________________________________________________________
Whoa..Terry!

Are you meaning to tell me that the pics of your 750 w/oil cooler..are with spigots up?   Maybe I didn't check that carefully.

Also seems to me..that the "filling issue" w/spigots either up OR down..doesn't seem so critical when you're running say 1/4" I D. lines @ 60 P.S.I.  But..if say the runs for a 750..to/from the oil tank were @ issue (and with say 5/16" or larger line I.D.'s)..then that's where I wonder about pressure/volume drop..hence the need to "up-end" the spigots.  Another thing: these Lockhart radiators are "tiny" in terms of filled capacity [what can they possibly hold..8 ounces??].

I do appreciate..and as Ron mentioned..about the "feed from points side..return to alternator side" clarification.  So..could we please try to clarify this "spigots up" versus "spigots down" controversy..a little more??

[Sorry Ron..for coopting your Phaedrus II thread theme a bit here]

Ichi

[Terry in Australia]

Are you meaning to tell me that the pics of your 750 w/oil cooler..are with spigots up?   Maybe I didn't check that carefully.

No mate, my cooler is a Lockhart with the spigots down. Here's a pic of one similar to mine. 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250276580421&_trksid=p2759.l1259

As far as the "upside down/right side up" argument goes, I just don't know, as I said before, I've never used one of those coolers, but when it comes to oil cooling, I'd prefer to err on the side of caution, and use the cooler as it was designed.

I use 8mm (3/8") ID lines on my coolers, but I've never worried about pressure, I've held the "out" hose off the cooler with the engine running, and it's much like a garden hose, launching the oil about 20 feet across my back yard. I think that's sufficient, ha ha! Cheers, Terry.

[MCRider]

G'Day Guys, are you missing me yet? No? Oh well..............

Now I've only ever seen those coolers mounted with the spigots on the top, so my advice would be to flip it around. For your info, your adapter feeds oil from the spigot on the ignition points side, and returns it on the alternator side.

I love what you're doing with that bike, it's a real quality build, and you should be justifiably proud of it, well done!

Having said that, locating the cooler down amongst the headers is just silly, and will probably heat your oil, rather than cool it. Kinda like mounting your cars radiator on your exhaust manifold..........

No offence meant, but I'm more a "function over form" kinda guy, so if it was me I'd ditch those horns, or mount them out of the way, you'll only use them now and then, but your cooler will be working all summer, at least, so should be sitting up there in the cool air, not mounted on a heat source, getting showered with rocks and mud.  

Apart from that, I'm a fan, keep up the good work! Cheers, Terry.

_________________________________________________________
Whoa..Terry!

Are you meaning to tell me that the pics of your 750 w/oil cooler..are with spigots up?   Maybe I didn't check that carefully.

Also seems to me..that the "filling issue" w/spigots either up OR down..doesn't seem so critical when you're running say 1/4" I D. lines @ 60 P.S.I.  But..if say the runs for a 750..to/from the oil tank were @ issue (and with say 5/16" or larger line I.D.'s)..then that's where I wonder about pressure/volume drop..hence the need to "up-end" the spigots.  Another thing: these Lockhart radiators are "tiny" in terms of filled capacity [what can they possibly hold..8 ounces??].

I do appreciate..and as Ron mentioned..about the "feed from points side..return to alternator side" clarification.  So..could we please try to clarify this "spigots up" versus "spigots down" controversy..a little more??

[Sorry Ron..for coopting your Phaedrus II thread theme a bit here]

Ichi

Ichi: No problem. You'd have to go back through my thread, to page 3, to see pictures of the cooler, showing the spigots pointing left and right, not up or down.

 I have an older Lockhart with the spigots down I ran on Phaedrus I. It looks like Terry's except it was chrome. No question the spigots on those coolers must point down, and there was no distinction made as to in or out.

One of the very last coolers Lockhart made is the one we are discussing. It's spigots were neither up nor down, but sideways. So the question is should they be at the top or bottom. In either case they would still point sideways. In order to read the warning label on the cooler, the spigots must be on the top. In order for the "In" and "Out" markings on the spigots to line up with what Terry said about the "In" and "Out" on the adapter plate (which was a Lockhart creation to begin with) the spigots must be on the top, or the hoses would cross.

I don't have the original instructions that came with this cooler, hence the questions. It is brand new never used and period, so I would like to use it.

[Ichiban 4]

Okay Ron..

I've got it about the spigots on your Lockhart cooler pointing "out" or to the sides..and you're wanting to align the spigots with the feed/return..inlet/outlet sides of the filter adaptor.

The thing I still don't understand though is: why does it/should it make a difference between WHICH spigots you connect the oil lines/hoses to? 

I mean: the Lockhart radiator is essentially a symmetrically circulating unit..right?  Mine @ least [which was a used unit when I got it..is probably 30 years old] looks symmetrical in all respects..the tubes, spigots, galleries are identical on either side of the unit.  When pumping fluid/air through it (I checked to try to figure out more about this issue)..it apparently is the same..regardless of the spigot used.

So..other than looks (obviously crossed oil lines would look hokey)..I'm still not picking-up on why all the concern about proper inlet/outlet with the spigots.

As Terry has already mentioned..yourself too..positioning the radiator higher-up..above the exhaust pipes/headers..is a decided preference.

Thanks guys..

Ichi

[MCRider]

Okay Ron..

I've got it about the spigots on your Lockhart cooler pointing "out" or to the sides..and you're wanting to align the spigots with the feed/return..inlet/outlet sides of the filter adaptor.

The thing I still don't understand though is: why does it/should it make a difference between WHICH spigots you connect the oil lines/hoses to? 

I mean: the Lockhart radiator is essentially a symmetrically circulating unit..right?  Mine @ least [which was a used unit when I got it..is probably 30 years old] looks symmetrical in all respects..the tubes, spigots, galleries are identical on either side of the unit.  When pumping fluid/air through it (I checked to try to figure out more about this issue)..it apparently is the same..regardless of the spigot used.

So..other than looks (obviously crossed oil lines would look hokey)..I'm still not picking-up on why all the concern about proper inlet/outlet with the spigots.

As Terry has already mentioned..yourself too..positioning the radiator higher-up..above the exhaust pipes/headers..is a decided preference.

Thanks guys..

Ichi

Ichi: easy answer...First to be clear it is a Lockhart, as that is stamped plainly in the metal of the radiator.  "Lockhart Oil Cooler Patent No 233984." 

So, it all revolves around this: Mine has a warning sticker on it which says: "CAUTION: It is important that the "IN" cooler port is mated to the correct hose. remove the sparkplug caps and turn the engine over. The correct hose from the oil pump will discharge a stream of oil." 

So that's why my question.  While the coolers we are used to seem to be symetrical and behave that way, this one has a warning. Since my engine is not running, I can't do the drill on the label.

From what Terry says, if I mount the cooler with the spigots on the bottom I will have to cross the hoses. I can't see an engineer designing it thus. So I'll mount it with the spigots on top, as Terry says he has seen this cooler style before (I have not) and mounted with the spigots on top. The hoses will be elegantly straight.

Remember the look of mine is not the look of yours or Terry's or even the one I had before. The spigots on mine mount on top of a block which in turn mounts on top of the radiator. I don't know what's in that block, a one way valve perhaps? I just blew through the ports and there doesn't seem to be any restriction either way. So why the warning? Oh well, not worth taking a chance.

[Terry in Australia]

Good idea Ron, and another point, some of those Lockharts had inbuilt thermostatically operated bypass valves, which may well be what's in that "Block".

I'm only guessing, but if you hook it up arse-backwards, it may work in reverse, i.e., will allow cold oil to move thru the cooler, and block hot oil. That wouldn't be very nice............. 

[Ichiban 4]

Ron..Terry..

You possibly already have checked/know about Perma Cool oil coolers..all kinds of peripherals, et al.

But if not..check out this link:  http://www.perma-cool.com/Catalog/Cat_page02.html.

Because we can't get the old Lockhart stuff any more..I was checking around..found this Perma Cool Site.  It's very extensive, informative I've found.  [It may have also been on one of the old threads here..can't remember..but is good nonetheless].

So..when are we going to get to see some more pics of your build?

Ichi

[MCRider]

Thanks for the link, interesting reading on cooling 101.  While we all agree we need a cooler, recent article posted here by Minton says all CB750s need one,  what I have never seen is a definitive study complete with before and after temperatures proving that what we do with coolers actually works. And even without proof, I'll still do it. ... But... Anyone?

Every Sunday AM is when I work, heading into shop after I finish the AM coffee! Don't anticipate much progress this week, cleaning and sorting most and rehashing my mounting points. I put the pipe back inthe box on the shelf, got to drag it back down and reinstall to make sure of mounting point for cooler and horns.

A little Non-MC content. I was a participant in the Indy Racing Experience Thursday. My wife bought me a ticket to ride in the 2 seater IRL car for my Birthday. Davey Hamilton was my driver, 180 MPH down the straightatway at the Brickyard! (Indianapolis Motor Speedway)

[MCRider]

Today's progress: Redoing what was already done, but with better result. Had to unbox the pipe, reinstall, place the cooler and horns, then rebox the pipe.
Most logical place for the cooler, above the header, but not blocking any fins


Horns to tuck in on each side, above the engine guards in the curve of the pipe,

they can be pushed outboard as far as necessary to tolerate the heat

left side
http://i313.photobucket.com/albums/ll384/rondison/Phaedrus/P8030007.jpg[/img]
maximum airflow to engine unimpeeded by anything
http://i313.photobucket.com/albums/ll384/rondison/Phaedrus/P8030008.jpg[/img]
Right side engine guard will be welded to the triangle plate to stiffen it. Bolt hole will be welded down and redrilled to fit tightly. The two frame bosses for the mount have been drilled and tapped to 10x1.25. Other engine mount areas will be hand fit and hardened bolts used to stiffen frame overall.


That's all for this week. Sooooo slow.

In the essence of the build...

Has anyone ever read "Rebuilding the Indian"? It is a well told story of an individual who rebuilt an Indian from scratch, all the trials and tribulations of finding just the right part, fitting it, finding it doesn't fit, then making the changes to fit it. A labor of love and a good read.

[Terry in Australia]

Looking good Ron, and I reckon the horns will work well there too.

I'll have to find a copy of that book, I built my K1 "Power Kruiser" in the earlier pics entirely from parts, starting with a bare frame that was given to me, no wheels, no forks, no swingarm, no nothing, and over a weekend I built it into a running bike (almost) entirely out of parts I bought, borrowed, or sniped on EBay, and had lying around my garage.

I only needed a wiring loom and some headlight brackets, and one of the guys here (Terry Sowden from Canada, take a bow) gave me. Great fun, but probably not as adventurous as the Indian guy............

Just a thought, can you mount your cooler from your existing OEM horn bracket? That's where mine's hanging from. Oooh, and how did you get those cases so clean, were they blasted, or acid dipped? They look great! Cheers, Terry.

[MCRider]

Looking good Ron, and I reckon the horns will work well there too.

I'll have to find a copy of that book, I built my K1 "Power Kruiser" in the earlier pics entirely from parts, starting with a bare frame that was given to me, no wheels, no forks, no swingarm, no nothing, and over a weekend I built it into a running bike (almost) entirely out of parts I bought, borrowed, or sniped on EBay, and had lying around my garage.

I only needed a wiring loom and some headlight brackets, and one of the guys here (Terry Sowden from Canada, take a bow) gave me. Great fun, but probably not as adventurous as the Indian guy............

Just a thought, can you mount your cooler from your existing OEM horn bracket? That's where mine's hanging from. Oooh, and how did you get those cases so clean, were they blasted, or acid dipped? They look great! Cheers, Terry.

Here tis: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0575065648/classicbikcou-21

Your bike sounds a lot like my Phaedrus I. Although I was starting with more parts than you, many were worn out (or not there) from road racing and not transferable. Once I decided to take it off the track and put it on the street, it was a relatively quick project yielding many years of enjoyment.

Yes I could use the original horn bracket but if you'll humor an old man, I have a many year desire to cut that thing off and mount the cooler as a permanent fixture, one that looks like that's where it was and should always be. If I did use it, I'd have to make a bracket, so not much effort saved.

This week should be parts cleaning and taking some things finally to the glass beader/powder coater/ceramic coater (same place). I'll get the finned exhaust clamps beaded and I'm going to test them to see what Ceramic coating on an exhaust part is like.

I stripped an old CB77 Superhawk crankcase (future project) to have it glass beaded as an experiment to see if it comes back clean enough from beads to use. They claim they wash it thoroughly.

BTW, the Phaedrus II crankcases are not as clean as they look in the picture, but it was done with an 1800PSI Electric Power Washer. It will not take the paint off and since the paint is patchy, something stronger must be used, hence the glass beader experiment.

They (Indy Powder Coating) swear they do hundreds, maybe thousands per year (I don't doubt it) and they wash them thouroughly and have no complaints.

[MCRider]

Bought some Ti Valve Spring retainers from APE. Best price i could find. (Didn't look too hard)

Several back and forth emails with the APE sales team. Very good responses and friendly to my eccentric questions.

Bought a complete head assy on eBay and paid WAY too much based on current eBay sales. Oh well got what i wanted. A cam to be used as a core, and a head for the next project.

Bought some "Viton" best on the planet valve stem seals off eBay. Its on the Internet so it must be true.

Took some stuff to IndyPowderCoating.com, Cb77 crankcases (I wanted to see how good their degreasing, bead blasting and cleanup services are), They said they often powder coat engines for a durable (expensive? finish)  I left the Finned Exhaust Collars to be cleaned and ceramic coated.
Turns Out Vance and Hines in Brownsburg (just down the road, part of the Indy Racing compex) uses IPC for their Harley Exhaust Pipes line. Nice job!  V&H are moving their CA operations to Brownsburg as well.
Just happened to have a CB750 frame sitting on the reception area floor... to the right and back about 10 ft are my CB77 cases...

Traditional Paint Room

Showroom


Bought nearly a complete bottom end on eBay for $25! In Knox Indiana which is just 45 miles down the road...OOPS...its the other Knox IN which is over 100 miles away. Rats that blows this weekend's work time.

[coyotecowboy]

Ron, I've been meaning to ask ya if that Gunfighter seat is pretty comfortable compared to a stock 750 seat.  I've got to do something different on my bike.  It looks better with the stock seat, but that thing kills my hips and if I'm in a pretty stiff wind (I'm in Kansas so this is usually the case) I feel like I'm having to hang on with my buns to keep from getting slid off of the seat.

Someone here used a Corbin Gunfighter for a Norton Commando on a 750 and it actually looked pretty good.  Almost $400 is kinda steep if I don't end up liking the way it feels.

Bike looks great BTW, keep up the good work!!!

[MCRider]

Ron, I've been meaning to ask ya if that Gunfighter seat is pretty comfortable compared to a stock 750 seat.  I've got to do something different on my bike.  It looks better with the stock seat, but that thing kills my hips and if I'm in a pretty stiff wind (I'm in Kansas so this is usually the case) I feel like I'm having to hang on with my buns to keep from getting slid off of the seat.

Someone here used a Corbin Gunfighter for a Norton Commando on a 750 and it actually looked pretty good.  Almost $400 is kinda steep if I don't end up liking the way it feels.

Bike looks great BTW, keep up the good work!!!

Thanks! For my purposes I love the Corbin, have one on my Hawk too. But admittedly people vary in their opinion. It uses very firm foam, and is thinner than stock as you can see. And Corbin's pricing is too high now, even if you could get one, as they don't make them for Ks.

But, any good MC saddle shop can make a very passable copy, many say even better. Sargent in FL is a popular maker. Go here http://www.sargentcycle.com/ and search on custom services.

[MCRider]

I got my 5 hours in, feel like i was productive, but its hard to see.  My shop gets like an archeological dig sometimes. Everything is in layers. Peel back one to find another. I got all the layers cleaned and put away.

Next week I should be able to take the frame in to the machinist for final modifications. I've got a sheet full of notes, need to type them up so there is no confusion. Then powder coating.

I bought a head off of eBay part on impulse and part for info. I wanted to see some stock springs vs the springs on my head. My head was built years ago, and I put it away as the project got stalled. I had no notes as to what springs were used. i thought we had settled on shimming up some stockers. I disassembled my built head to clean up some surface rust and get the spiders out of the fins etc. No shims.

Compared to the ones in the eBay head, I definielte have heavy duty springs of unknown origin. I could push down on the stocker and coil bind it with my weight on the workbench. The HD springs wouldn't go that far. The wire is visibly thicker. So that's settled. I opted to top them off with some Ti retainers from APE, on order. Bought some new valve stem seals from eBay. When they get here I can put the head back together.

So I've been scrubbing things with the Simple Green recommended here. Someone recommended the cleaning brushes from a gun cleaning kit. Must be bigger heat than a 22 caliber squirrel rifle. Though those did a pretty good job till it wore out. I'll get bigger ones this week.

My cylinders have some bent fins so the topic for this week is, how would one straighten fins bent like this?

In reality I might just leave them alone. But, would one use a hairdryer and a tire iron? I wouldn't want to break them.

IF I get the frame gone, next week will be tear down the bottom end. APE pitched me a good price to inspect Phaedrus I crank. If its still got life in it, I'll use it, why not? It was spun balanced, lightened, fluted, etc by Precision Balancing here in INDY 27 years ago.

And APE will help me decide on rods. Phaedrus I had Action 4 forged rods with small bolts IIRC. I would be happy to reuse them, but would like to upgrade the bolts. Then there's those CR750 RC rods I bought off eBay....        We'll see.

[MCRider]

Got my 5 hours in, but not directly on point. trying to make a deal to sell the wheels from Phaedrus I, front Borrani Record and Rear Akront both with shoulders and HD SS spokes. Had to cut the 12+ year old tires off with a sawsall. Why not, I'm not strong enough to futz them off with tire irons like when I was younger.

Afterwards, put them on my truing stand and having never been touched after building them 50K miles ago, they were as near perfect true as one can imagine. Pat myself on the back.  So now the wheels are ready to sell/ship.

Received the Titanium valve spring keepers from APE. It says on the package to be used with APE springs, which is understandable, but I wasn't told that upon purchase. They don't fit any of the 3 sets of HD springs I have. So back they go. I'll stick to the original plan of using the stock steel ones with one set of my springs. No biggie.

Did some other tedius things not much to mention but necessary. No pictures this week.

[Terry in Australia]

Hey Ron, I need a front wheel with a Borrani rim if it's for sale? I've got a great back wheel with a shouldered Borrani rim, and I'd like a matching front? Wanna talk turkey? Cheers, Terry.

[MCRider]

Hey Ron, I need a front wheel with a Borrani rim if it's for sale? I've got a great back wheel with a shouldered Borrani rim, and I'd like a matching front? Wanna talk turkey? Cheers, Terry.

FYI: Mines a WM3, wider than stock (WM2?). There is one person ahead of you. They will confirm or reject today sometime. I'll let you know.

There is a picture on page 3 of this thread. More on request.

[Terry in Australia]

Hey Ron, I need a front wheel with a Borrani rim if it's for sale? I've got a great back wheel with a shouldered Borrani rim, and I'd like a matching front? Wanna talk turkey? Cheers, Terry.

FYI: Mines a WM3, wider than stock (WM2?). There is one person ahead of you. They will confirm or reject today sometime. I'll let you know.

There is a picture on page 3 of this thread. More on request.

Thanks Ron, looks good. My rear Borrani is a WM5, from memory, I'm running a new Bridgestone 130/90 x 18 rear tire on it, and with the super thin (4mm) racing cast iron disc, it looks pretty sweet. Cheers, Terry.

[MCRider]

Got my 5 hours in again this week as follows: Bought some 3 point Engine Guards off eBay. Been trying for months, there is usually a set every other week or so but I kept being outbid, didn't want to pay more than $50, they usually went for $75 or so. These may be poor finish but I figured I'd have to rechrome regardless. Pics once I receive.

Finalized a deal for my front Borrani rim and spokes. Blew the wheel apart and packed it for shipping.



Blew the rear apart to keep the hub for future projects and sell the Akront on eBay.
Went to HarborFreight.com to find some wire tube brushes. Found out they have a retail outlet in Indy so went over there. They had wire and nylon tube brush assortments on sale, bought a bunch. Can chuck them up in drill to clean fins, holes etc.


One sticky Dowel left to remove. A week of soaking with PB Blaster and it still wouldn't move. Really messed it up trying.
Found a drill bit that was slightly more than the ID of the dowel, but less than the ID of the hole. Ran it in carefully with drill and the dowel began spinning almost immediately. A few tugs and it came out easily. Whew!

Not very exciting but time consuming.
Indy PowderCoating called and my parts were done, mostly degreasing, glass beading, and ceramic oon the exhaust finned clamps. Came down sick Thursday afternoon and couldn't pick them up. Get them next week (spring retainers) and reassemble the head. Get the Engine guards and see if I want to have mounts welded on the frame for them. trying to avoid "clamp-ons" as part of the build theme. I want everything to look like it was intended to be there.

[mystic_1]

Good tip there with the drill bit, Ron.  What size was it that you used?

mystic_1

[MCRider]

Good tip there with the drill bit, Ron.  What size was it that you used?

mystic_1

7/16". I flared out the top of the dowel with sidecuts and needlenose. Then offered the spinning bit (slow speed) to the dowel, as soon as the bit caught the dowel started to spin. But it wouldn't budge any other way.

[Terry in Australia]

Finalized a deal for my front Borrani rim and spokes. Blew the wheel apart and packed it for shipping.
[img width=600

Woohoo! And I'm looking forward to lacing up to my hub!