Topic: Phaedrus: CB750 RestoMod - Update: 09/23/21 w/ new video

[MCRider]

Got my 5 hours in and then some. I was not happy with the polish job on my hub. Rather the polish job was fine, but not what I wanted to put on my bike. The side flanges still had the scars from the spokes, even though the polished areas were like mirrors.
Not an actual before and after shot, but the hub on the right is from Phaedrus I, with scars. The hub on the left is for Phaedrus II. The scars were WORSE than those on Phaedrus I. After encouragement from this forum, I started with 220 wet sand, worked up through what I had, 400, 600, 1000, 1500, which is where I've left off, and that's looking pretty good. With rouge I should be able to get it back to the mirror finish of the pro.



I bought a 600 ninja Swingarm off of eBay. Not for Phaedrus II but a future cafe project. For the collective data base. The pivot bolt is exact diameter. The Ninja is about 2 inches longer, and 1.5 lbs lighter per my bathroom scale. It doesn't really appear that it will take a wider tire than the stock one will. I measure it with a 130/80/18 wheel/tire I have and where the widest part of the tire hits each swingarm the free space is exactly the same. A 17" or 16" would be different.

The gap in the pivot area is about 3/4 in total (3/8 each side)

It looks pretty good mounted up, should take a polish well.

Fianlly, I spent some time with the 3 point engine guards. Someone posted here last week they had a tip over and puctured their alternator cover. Good way to end a trip.



I'm going to fortify the mounts, get rid of the "u-bolt" mount in favor of a permanent tab on the frame, and afterwards they will be refinished. Chrome or Frame color-Gold powdercoat?

I'll also have the tabs cut off my swingarm in favor of a minimalist chainguard mount. I saw one this week that was a strip of aluminum suspended above the chain by 2 V shaped aluminum wire hangers bolted to tabs on the swingarm. Very cool. I think one of you had it? I'll post a pic if I come across it again.

Hopefully the frame and swingarm goes to the machine shop tomorrow. I sent the Tranny to APE, they got it Friday, for undercutting of the engagement dogs. More engine work soon, I hope.

[mystic_1]

Hub looks good, should take a polish real well.

Good info on the swingarm, that's a question that comes up relatively often.  All it'll need is some shock mounts and a couple of spacers.

Regarding finish on the engine guards, I'd go with chrome personally but it's hard to say without taking your whole color scheme into account.

mystic_1

[andy750]

Hey Ron,

Looking good and like the photos/updates as always. One question on your engine guard - what size of bolt are you using for going under the engine? And where did you find it? Im looking to mount engine guards I have but cant find a long enough bolt...any tips? Size?

thanks
Andy

[MCRider]

Hub looks good, should take a polish real well.

Good info on the swingarm, that's a question that comes up relatively often.  All it'll need is some shock mounts and a couple of spacers.

Regarding finish on the engine guards, I'd go with chrome personally but it's hard to say without taking your whole color scheme into account.

mystic_1

Thanks for comments. I'm torn on the guard finish. Chrome is the period look. But I'm also going for the "it's not an add-on" look. Frame color may be better for that. I'll sleep on it, a lot.

[MCRider]

Hey Ron,

Looking good and like the photos/updates as always. One question on your engine guard - what size of bolt are you using for going under the engine? And where did you find it? Im looking to mount engine guards I have but cant find a long enough bolt...any tips? Size?

thanks
Andy

The original guards would use the stock bolt, and the right side guard was threaded. But with the left guard consuming some of the bolt length, and the right guard only having about 4 threads, it was prone to stripping. I've found some sources on the forum and elsewhere that will make bolts. I'll have one made that's like the footpeg bolt, a nut on each end with 8 to 10 threads so I can get the proper torque on it. And so I can take either one off without having to pull the whole motor mount bolt.

I had a place that said they would make whatever i want, but i can't find the link. When i do I'll post it.

[Ecosse]

Does the tag on the 600 arm say 85, as in 1985?


Just day dreaming here.

[MCRider]

Does the tag on the 600 arm say 85, as in 1985?


Just day dreaming here.

Yes. A tip from a Forum member pointed me to its sale on eBay. I think I paid $55 incl shipping.

[andy750]

Hey Ron,

Looking good and like the photos/updates as always. One question on your engine guard - what size of bolt are you using for going under the engine? And where did you find it? Im looking to mount engine guards I have but cant find a long enough bolt...any tips? Size?

thanks
Andy

The original guards would use the stock bolt, and the right side guard was threaded. But with the left guard consuming some of the bolt length, and the right guard only having about 4 threads, it was prone to stripping. I've found some sources on the forum and elsewhere that will make bolts. I'll have one made that's like the footpeg bolt, a nut on each end with 8 to 10 threads so I can get the proper torque on it. And so I can take either one off without having to pull the whole motor mount bolt.

I had a place that said they would make whatever i want, but i can't find the link. When i do I'll post it.

Thanks Ron appreciate it. If I can use shorter bolts with a nut on the end then I will. I wasnt sure this would weaken the mounting of the motor or not.

cheers
Andy

[MCRider]

Hey Ron,

Looking good and like the photos/updates as always. One question on your engine guard - what size of bolt are you using for going under the engine? And where did you find it? Im looking to mount engine guards I have but cant find a long enough bolt...any tips? Size?

thanks
Andy

The original guards would use the stock bolt, and the right side guard was threaded. But with the left guard consuming some of the bolt length, and the right guard only having about 4 threads, it was prone to stripping. I've found some sources on the forum and elsewhere that will make bolts. I'll have one made that's like the footpeg bolt, a nut on each end with 8 to 10 threads so I can get the proper torque on it. And so I can take either one off without having to pull the whole motor mount bolt.

I had a place that said they would make whatever i want, but i can't find the link. When i do I'll post it.

Thanks Ron appreciate it. If I can use shorter bolts with a nut on the end then I will. I wasnt sure this would weaken the mounting of the motor or not.

cheers
Andy

I'm still thinking of a long one all the way across. I wouldn't want to give up the clamping effect of the frame on the motor either.

But thinking about it, it would be cleaner to drill and tap out the motor mount lugs on the frame and thread a 12mm hardened bolt in on either side. I did that on the triangle front upper right mount. Tapped out the frame to 10x1.25 and got rid of the 2 8mm bolt and nuts. THen I'll have the engine guard welded to the triangle to stiffen that joint.

Why? Just cuz.    I'm just goofin around.

I still think I like the clamping effect. But I may enlarge it to a 12mm from a 10mm.  Hmmm...

[Ichiban 4]

Guys:

There's an outfit here in Denver that either carries..or can get you just about any type of bolt/fastener that you need..odd lengths, sizes, threads ( left-right, metric, SAE), materials, etc.

I've gotten bolts for my 550 K that Honda no longer carries [like the rotor bolts for the front hub/wheel]..and many other odd sizes..even stainless steel to replace cad-plated or regular steel metric bolts/screws.

The name of the place is: A & I Bolt Co., 6195 Clermont St., Denver, CO  (800) 421-0866 / (303) 287-5555  Ex:248 Lisa Ann or Ex:253 Linda.

It's been a few years since I've used them..hope the numbers/sales people are still correct..but I know they're still very much in business.

If you do get what you're looking for from them..please let the rest of us know..okay?

Ichi

[MCRider]

Guys:

There's an outfit here in Denver that either carries..or can get you just about any type of bolt/fastener that you need..odd lengths, sizes, threads ( left-right, metric, SAE), materials, etc.

I've gotten bolts for my 550 K that Honda no longer carries [like the rotor bolts for the front hub/wheel]..and many other odd sizes..even stainless steel to replace cad-plated or regular steel metric bolts/screws.

The name of the place is: A & I Bolt Co., 6195 Clermont St., Denver, CO  (800) 421-0866 / (303) 287-5555  Ex:248 Lisa Ann or Ex:253 Linda.

It's been a few years since I've used them..hope the numbers/sales people are still correct..but I know they're still very much in business.

If you do get what you're looking for from them..please let the rest of us know..okay?

Ichi

Thanks Ichiban:A&I has changed names to Timberline as so: http://www.etimberline.com/contacts.htm
I have bookmarked it for future use.
Gives the same address, but in "Commerce City". Is that a suburb of Denver?

Aint the Internet great?

[Ichiban 4]

Hey Ron.

Thanks for the update on A&I Bolt..now Timberline.

Yeah..Commerce City is just a suburb of Denver..essentially the same place. 

Have you called them yet?  As said before..it's been a few years since I've used them..but the phone sales people are (were) exceptionally knowledgeable..and able to help find some really obscure items.  From checking their website..it didn't seem to have much detail about their actual products.  So..I guess I'd suggest actually phoning them..if you've got special item needs..

How's Phaedrus II going?  I'm interested to see more about your engine work..as well as your oil cooler placement.   Of course any build progress reports (with pics hopefully) will be appreciated.

Later,

Al / Ichi 

[MCRider]

Hey Ron.

Thanks for the update on A&I Bolt..now Timberline.

Yeah..Commerce City is just a suburb of Denver..essentially the same place. 

Have you called them yet?  As said before..it's been a few years since I've used them..but the phone sales people are (were) exceptionally knowledgeable..and able to help find some really obscure items.  From checking their website..it didn't seem to have much detail about their actual products.  So..I guess I'd suggest actually phoning them..if you've got special item needs..

How's Phaedrus II going?  I'm interested to see more about your engine work..as well as your oil cooler placement.   Of course any build progress reports (with pics hopefully) will be appreciated.

Later,

Al / Ichi 

No, just bookmarked it. I have several sources now for hardware, but I'm not that far along yet.

Phaedrus II is about as far along as the thread indicates. I hope to take the frame in to machine shop Thursday for final mods which includes the oil cooler mount. I've decided it goes in a more traditional spot below the steering stem, and clear of all cooling fins on the motor. I expect them to keep it a few weeks. They are a production oil tank and radiator shop for race cars, mostly sprints, but they do these jobs like mine in between production runs to stay busy. (I know the owner) While its away, I'll build the rear wheel (front wheel is done) and start in on the forks. Then focus on the engine.

Five hours+ a week is my goal, but at that rate completion is months/years? away.

[MCRider]

I missed last week's update, just too bummed. I simply don't have the "knack" for polishing. You guys who do polish, and rattlecan paint, and do your own welding, etc. have to realize you have a skill that many of us wouldn't have with years of training. Its kinda like singing. A singer will tell everyone, "you can sing" when inreality, there are many people who simply can't sing.

I tried to do the finish polishing on my rear hub. The drill kept hopping up and knicking the part. After twice I said screw it and decided to throw some money at it. Harbor Freight to the rescue.

I haven't had time to try it out. I spoke with some local polishers and they gave me some tips and with a better attitude I'll try again.
But Jay (owner/CEO of APE) posted last week the rods are nearly ready and I need to get my crank out to them for install. So teardown of Phaedrus I bottom end to the fore.



Break time: Here's my idea for my chainguard. This was stolen from the internet, but i've lost the link so if it was one of you please step forward for credit. I'll run a narrow strip of aluminum along the top run of the chain, curved at the end to the radius of the sprocket. Suspended at 2 points by a delicate "V" of aluminum wire welded to the strap.


Back to the tear down. Shot of forest of HD studs, rusty from neglect. Shot of small end of HD rods.

Shot of ignition stud removal:

Tool used

Electric impact removes alternator bolt right now:

Realized that rear axle of our model will not pull the rotor so rotor puller on order. Won't delay anything as I'll send it to APE as is.
I love the sound of an air wrench in the morning:

Antique RODAC butterfly, recently rebuilt:

Chiseling the cases apart:

One lucky boy! Oil pump screen covered with whatever sealer (likely silicone) I useed when I buttoned the cases up 50,000 miles ago.


"Handy" brand tear down table has built in drain to which all fluids flow and are captured underneath in a pan:

With cases split, shot of crank in Phaedrus I. It was balanced, lightened and oil holes "fluted" by a local outfit 28 years ago.




Stange notches in Cyl 1 and 4. I assume part of the balancing routine. Note HD camchain in background.

Final shot of double row output bearing. I think these are standard in later models, but an upgrade on a K2.


Crank has been de-rodded and ready for packing.

So, APE now has my transmission for undercutting and will have my crank for inspection and install of rods. They are sending Ti retainers and their valve springs so I can re-assemble my head. In the meantime, I've got to get back to my rear wheel. I've reserved an IRC 140/70-17 for install at Cycle Outfitters, local Accessory and Tire shop.  Not a premium tire perhaps, but i didn't want to spend premium money until I'm sure it will fit.

[mystic_1]

Looking good Ron, thanks for the great pics.  BTW do you have a shop photographer helping you take pics now?  Fewer one-handed pics in this set. 


Polishing on that new polishing machine will be a treat compared to using a drill, a drill just doesn't generate the right speed and it's much easier to offer the part to the wheel than to offer the wheel to the part.  Remember to offer the part to the lower portion of the wheel, where it's moving down and away from you, and hold on tight, easy for the part to get snatched out of your hand.  Don't mix compounds on the wheel, use a different wheel for each compound.

cheers
mystic_1

[Terry in Australia]

Very nice Ron, beautiful clear pictures, and I love your "operating theatre" clean workshop, I'm rebuilding my Suzuki GS1000 from scratch in my driveway because my garage is such a mess, ha ha! Cheers, Terry.

[Ichiban 4]

Yeah..

Thanks for the update pics Ron..

Re: polishing (I've done a few thousand hours over the years, et al.)..get the right compounds also.  Lots of people just use "course" and "polish" grades..but there's much more to compounds than that..and they really make a difference in time and ease in getting the job done.

There's a place in Illinois..close to you that's been around for over 100 years now called Global Product Systems..which make a dedicated metal finishing line called "L' Hommedieu".  Anyone who's been around metal finishing, et al. for a while has heard of L' Hommedieu.

My old catalogues from them date to 2000 (before they had e-mail address)..but their phone number is: (800) 333-2833.  Address 103 E. Taylor, P.O. Box 605, Grant Park, Il 60940.

I'd contact them..ask for a free catalogue..or quite possibly they have it listed on line?  It will explain all about different types of wheels, buffs..and polishing compounds.   From personal experience..I'd suggest a medium grade titanium "green chrome rouge" for polishing aluminum..as well as stainless and chrome.  The course pre-polishing/scratch removing compounds don't seem to be as critical as the final polishing compound you choose.

I polished all of my alternator, primary and miscellaneous engine stuff on my 550..with a unit similar to yours..in about 2 hours..just to give you a guestimate of what's involved with the right materials.

Let me know if you find out Global Product Systems web address, etc.

Al / Ichi

[MCRider]

Mystic 1; Thanks as always for your comments. My bike is older than you are?  I will offer the part as suggested. My friend I was talking to said about polishing said he wore leather gloves as he really bore down on the wheel causing heat, and he has launched a few parts across the room as well. But he had some really shiny parts.  And yes, I understand to use different types wheels per rouge, and have bought them.

I have a buddy who is "in" on the project and a great inspiration to keep going. The title is in my name, but its "our" bike.  It is his hands in the picture usually, I'm on the camera.

Terry: you're welcome. My shop was a gift to me from me allowed by my wife, and I'm glad to finally be using it properly.

Al: I'll look into your referral. I have 4 grades of rouge and will learn each use. Your "2 hour" comment is a great relief. I'd be happy with 4.  Most of my parts were polished years ago and wrapped in newspaper and stored. It will be interesting to see how the shine has held up. I hope I can get by with a little touch up.

[mystic_1]

My build date is November 1970, is Phaedrus the 72 listed in your sig?  If so it's younger than me but older than my wife   My K0 is older than me by about 9 months.

Cool that you have a shop buddy helping you out, most of my garage time is solo these days but I'm training up my older son (17) as an apprentice and he's starting to shape up nicely.

cheers
mystic_1

[MCRider]

My build date is November 1970, is Phaedrus the 72 listed in your sig?  If so it's younger than me but older than my wife   My K0 is older than me by about 9 months.

Cool that you have a shop buddy helping you out, most of my garage time is solo these days but I'm training up my older son (17) as an apprentice and he's starting to shape up nicely.

cheers
mystic_1

Yes, that's Phaedrus. And having a schedule with a friend helps to keep it moving. I know every Sunday at 9AM he'll be here, so I have to get up and get things ready to maximize our time,etc. Then during the week, I do the shopping, calling vendors, ordering parts, a few hours in the evenings, so he can see I've made progress. Keeps me honest.

Never had any kids. I had a nephew that used to visit a few weeks every summer. We rebuilt a basket case GS450 rescued from the landfill literally. He did chores to work it off. Took about 4 summers, but by the time he was 18, it was near done. I told him he couldn't have it unless he took the MSF riding course. So he did and after graduating from high school, he came up (from FL) in November, we finished it, and he left here in freezing temps, took 5 weeks and the southern route through TX, NM, AZ, to San Francisco where he still is today, age 26. That was fun.

[MCRider]

Got my 5 hours in. Received Titanium Retainers and APE Valve springs from APE. So I went for re-assembling my head, something simple I know I can do. To review, I had my head ported and a 5 angle valve job by Ron R at Racing Engine Services in TX. I don't know if he's even there any more, it was a strong referral from a friend who built a AHRMA successful CR750 Replica. he was proud enough of his work to sign it:

There are some schools of thought on this. One it used to be "port and polish". But RES and Yoshimura both gave me heads with the machine marks in them. No more polishing they say. My first head was done by an individual (the bike in my avatar), who had worked for Yosh and it was polished to a mirror. Hmmmm  The other issue is with the combustion chamber. Once again, RES and Yosh did not touch the chambers. The individual and the 70s CB750 article from Branch Flowmetrics (which is floating around this site here somewhere) both made the chambers like a "hemi". Branch claims 26% more flow. They are still in big time business doing Harley Heads. I'll just run what I have.




and the date is 1-00. As the title to this thread USED to say, "Restart of stalled project..." I had a lot of things done back then, but for personal reasons got stalled out and stored it all away. The head had surface rust on the springs and overall grunge, so i disassembled it.

It had been assembled with HD springs and stock retainers. So in this iteration, I opted out for the Ti retainers. they are 8 grams vs 13.3g for the stockers! This is important weight as it is reciprocating. But the retainers wouldn't fit my springs. After consult with APE, as they thought they should fit, I decided to buy their springs. I am on a budget of sorts, but was able to sell superfluous unnecessary parts to cover the costs. And glad to do so. The APE springs were obviously less bulk, about 40% lighter, though I forgot to write down the weights. I gave them the squish test and seemed to be everybit as strong as what I was going to use. Anyway, I feel good about the upgrade and can hear my cam heave a sigh of relief.  The valves are Manley Stainless Steel from Phaedrus I, stock size. Even though they had 50k miles on them, RES said they were in fine shape and we used them over.
We also used the old style exhaust guides that don't hold seals. This was done on the K0 for less valve train friction, so me too. While there is the issue of smoking on downshifts, I can't see it so why care?    I did put upgrade VITON valve seals on the Intake side. Viton is upscale seal rubber and they come with a metal jacket as well.

I tessted all valves with the old Kerosene in the port test. I didn't have any kerosene but I had some chain cleaner from years ago (current rides don't have chains. My GT650 does, but sadly it hasn't seen much road time) which is mostly kerosene. I went to reach for it on the high shelf, knocked it off and even though plastic, the brittle bottle shattered and that took about an hour to thoroughly clean up.
My crank wouldn't fit in the box to my satisfaction, so I'm waiting on the rotor puller from Bike bandit I ordered. Then I'll get my crank out to APE.

PS: I like this shot for its aesthetic value:

[Terry in Australia]

Mmmnnnnnn, very nice Ron, it looks like you're using a K0 head? I've got a ported K0 head with stainless valves etc and a big Andrews K grind cam sitting in a box somewhere, it was advertised on EBay as being off an F1, but no biggie, I've got a complete running K0 that I bought from a member there in the US, so I figure one day I might be able to use it............ You've got some great parts in that garage of yours mate, it's like a 1970's performance bike museum! Cheers, Terry.

[MCRider]

Mmmnnnnnn, very nice Ron, it looks like you're using a K0 head? I've got a ported K0 head with stainless valves etc and a big Andrews K grind cam sitting in a box somewhere, it was advertised on EBay as being off an F1, but no biggie, I've got a complete running K0 that I bought from a member there in the US, so I figure one day I might be able to use it............ You've got some great parts in that garage of yours mate, it's like a 1970's performance bike museum! Cheers, Terry.

Head came off of a parts bike, don't know the K model of origin. (Any way to tell?) The sealless exhaust guides were installed by choice as all 8 guides are new. They get removed in the porting process.

I'm hoping to soak up or sell a great deal of these parts so I can free up some shop space. I've got 2 stripped engines on the floor (besides Phaedrus II, which makes 3). Pipes hanging from ceiling and high wall, etc.

The FreeBird 1976 CB750F rat bike cafe project will soak up some. Then the 1968 CB77 custom restoration, and finally the 1978 CB400 Hawk track bike.

I gotta admit, I like having parts around, and trick with a story is better. I had a cam chain tensioner built by a machinist in Seattle for my CB77. He takes the original, removes the old brittle wheel (in my case, the worn out seized wheel) and replaces it with a fresh one from a current Kawasaki and installs a needle bearing instead of the original brass bushing. Very trick.

[Ichiban 4]

Again..

Nice pics and dialogue Ron.  That old porting job you have there looks just fine to me.  I tend to agree that a little roughness..rather than mirror finish seems to result in more predictable performance.  Guess it depends on the type of carbs used..as well as distance between carbs and valves. I always felt that if in doubt..a more thorough mixture getting into the cylinders was preferable to absolute maximum flow.  In any event..your mods can't help but be an improvement over stock..I feel.

I'm starting to get impatient to see Phaedrus II's engine come together..

Later,

Al

[Ecosse]

I'm starting to get impatient to see Phaedrus II's engine come together..

+1 on that!

Good point about the finish on the ports as well; not that I'm an old pro here but I see differing schools of thought on this and am curious about more experienced viewpoints such as yours... and MCRider's .