Topic: Phaedrus: CB750 RestoMod - Update: 09/23/21 w/ new video

[Really?]

That crankshaft n rods created wood! 

[Terry in Australia]

Terry and Mystic: Thanks guys. I'm eggsited.

I'll try the rubber mount thingie. I think I have some extra rubber mounts.

I've never seen "rubber bar" but I've never looked, but I could even use wood, so I'll give her a go.

No worries mate, I thought about wood (plywood, anything with a "grain" would crack) and while I was out in my garage I found some Teflon bar, and I thought that might be good too. Cheers, Terry.  

[MCRider]

Terry and Mystic: Thanks guys. I'm eggsited.

I'll try the rubber mount thingie. I think I have some extra rubber mounts.

I've never seen "rubber bar" but I've never looked, but I could even use wood, so I'll give her a go.

No worries mate, I thought about wood (plywood, anything with a "grain" would crack) and while I was out in my garage I found some Teflon bar, and I thought that might be good too. Cheers, Terry.  

I can mock up the wooden ones pert quick. A simple wrap with electrician's tape should make them usable. I'll look for better material later. Where did you get the rubber and teflon bars? Local hardware or specialty?

[MCRider]

Crankshaft weights: Stock vs APE
A stock K2 crank, rods and rotor weigh 31lbs. Of which the rotor is 6 lbs.
The APE 3 some is 27lbs (on a bathroom scale) of which 4.5lbs is the lightened rotor.
Differences in the crank/rod assembly is 2.5lbs. Differences in rotor is 1.5lb.

Of note is that Honda started to lighten the rotors I think starting with the K3? Not as aggressivley as mine, but probably a pound anyway.

For those of you with hot top ends but no work on the bottom end, you may want to consider popping the rotor off (assuming its the old style heavy rotor) and having it cut down. I have seen the tip of the crank sheared off from aggressive shifting with a heavy rotor.

[Terry in Australia]

Terry and Mystic: Thanks guys. I'm eggsited.

I'll try the rubber mount thingie. I think I have some extra rubber mounts.

I've never seen "rubber bar" but I've never looked, but I could even use wood, so I'll give her a go.

No worries mate, I thought about wood (plywood, anything with a "grain" would crack) and while I was out in my garage I found some Teflon bar, and I thought that might be good too. Cheers, Terry.  

I can mock up the wooden ones pert quick. A simple wrap with electrician's tape should make them usable. I'll look for better material later. Where did you get the rubber and teflon bars? Local hardware or specialty?

G'Day Ron, I've seen the extruded rubber "bar" at a "Clark Rubber" store here in Oz, and I bought the teflon bar (machines up really nicely) at a specialty plastic engineering shop. Cheers, Terry.

[MCRider]

Terry and Mystic: Thanks guys. I'm eggsited.

I'll try the rubber mount thingie. I think I have some extra rubber mounts.

I've never seen "rubber bar" but I've never looked, but I could even use wood, so I'll give her a go.

No worries mate, I thought about wood (plywood, anything with a "grain" would crack) and while I was out in my garage I found some Teflon bar, and I thought that might be good too. Cheers, Terry.  

I can mock up the wooden ones pert quick. A simple wrap with electrician's tape should make them usable. I'll look for better material later. Where did you get the rubber and teflon bars? Local hardware or specialty?

G'Day Ron, I've seen the extruded rubber "bar" at a "Clark Rubber" store here in Oz, and I bought the teflon bar (machines up really nicely) at a specialty plastic engineering shop. Cheers, Terry.

Thanks Terry I'll be looking around here for materials

[MCRider]

I'm happy with the time I got in this week, it's not always as directly related to the build as I might like, but its all related. I sold 2 more sets of rods on ebay. They both went in 24 hours for the "buy it now" price so i didn't price them high enough. But those deals take time to consumate, pack up etc. But I keep looking at that APE crank and its all worth it. Here's a comparoo of the APE to stock:


Its hard to believe that with all the material they removed from the flyweigts that its only down a couple of pounds. But its all relative and if that's what it is, that's what it is. The little skinny rod standing up between 1 and 2 is a stocker so you can see the size increase of the APE rods. And the APE rods are slightly heavier than stock.
I had 2 buddioes show up this AM for the work session. My regular guy helping me with Phaedrus II and another who is into pre-oil in frame Meriden Triumphs (pre-1970s) which I am also. The first bike I owned as a 17 year old was a 1967 Triumph Bonneville I bought in 1970, with my grass cutting money. I rode it to CA and back in the summer after the summer of love 1970.  My parents were so proud.   Memories.....
The first bike I learned on was my cousin's 1966 CB77 Super Hawk. I now own a completely original (until now) 1968 CB77 Super Hawk. The engine has been on my workbench for years. When I first got it in 1998, it had set in a climate controlled room since 1974. I rode it around but unbeknown to me the cam chain tensioner roller had seized up probably from condensation from sitting, so every time i adjusted it, it just pushed essentially a small rubber object up against the chain until it was worn down almost to the bushing. It got to where it would only pull 85MPH and the timing was jumping all over the place. So I pulled the tensioner on a whim and found it was seized solid. I found a CB77 specialist in Wash State who made me one with fresh Kawasaki roller rubber and put a needle bearing in it. Today we got it installed.

The machinist made an ingenious little shelf to collect oil and funnel it into the bearing.

Along with this, it needed a new chain as the old one had flailed around not being properly tensioned. Old style chains with master links are not available so I had to use an endless one and split it. We hooked it to the old one with wire and pulled it through.


Then I reinstalled a new clip type master link.

I find it hugely odd that the CB77 and the CB750 take the same camchain. Is that the height of engineering coincidence? I think one could say the CB77 (or the CA77) and the CB750 were Soichiro's favorite bikes. But for the distance between the centers of the crank and the cams to be identical, (factoring in the spocket sizes as well, don't know what they are.)
Now that engine is reassembled and set aside and my workbench is completely clean for the winter push on Phaedrus II. Great feeling.
I've been struggling with dust covers for old style (pre-K3) lower fork legs and may have the answer. Discussed in another thread.


http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=41359.15
This week I hope to bear down on polishing the rear hub. Nothing left in the way, I've been procrastinating on it, polishing not my thing, but I've got to learn it. I actually spent less than an hour on it last week and really came along. So probably no less than another hour and I'll be assembling the rear wheel.

[MCRider]

Decent progress today. Workbench completely cleaned for first time in years. Pictures are for posterity. Proof that it actually happened once.   Measured progress to be made from this point.


2 Hours spent on rear hub polishing. Happy with progress nearly done. I nicked it with the chuck from the drill, so I'll sand that nick off and finish the polishing. Then assemble the wheel.

Hints from heloise. I use the 12 quart Rubbermaid containers for various groups of items, like polishing wheels:
I write the color of the rouge on the wheel so as not to mix them. Here's other containers for fuel line, electrical wire, sandpaper, pegboard pegs etc.
Now on to my gas tank dilemma. My Phaedrus II (Purple) tank with petcock on left side (desired) is to replace the Phaedrus I tank (Black) which is dented and has petcock on right side (not desired).


I was going to show you the subtle ways that the Purple tank didn't quite fit, it is too long by 3/8", too wide (though usable) by 1/2", then we flipped them over and Boom, the purple tank has a threaded on petcock, while my old tank has the 2 Philips screw fastening system.

At first i thought I had an "AHA" moment, and I had acquired a tank form a non-CB750 model, but now I see on Bike Bandit Fiches that both petcocks were available!!?? Aaaarrrgghh!
So, do I make the Purple tank fit?  Distance at fork neck:


Distance at rear mount:


I can cut the front "U" tabs on the tank, fold back a piece to let the tank slide forward, then fold up the piece I had cut to make a new tab to keep the tank from sliding further forward. That would work the easiest I think.
Weird.

[Really?]

And to think when I saw the first couple pics I thought you were gonna say you were finished and it was out being ridden.  Oh well, at least we will all know about the differences between the tanks and watch you continue the build.

[Terry in Australia]

Well how's that for deja vu Ron, it's just after 7 am on Monday morning here and as I'm reading your post there's a knock on the door and the delivery lady is standing there with a box of your conrods for me!

Have you gone off the idea of some front mounts drilled offset? Seems easier to me that cutting that beautiful tank? I've got some nice teflon bar here, I can make you up a pair if you'd like?

I imagine that the Phaedrus I black tank will hang in your garage as a reminder of your halcyon days, but if you ever decide to move it on, you can send it my way, I'll hang it in my "Hall of Cool Things", ha ha! Cheers, Terry.

[MCRider]

And to think when I saw the first couple pics I thought you were gonna say you were finished and it was out being ridden.  Oh well, at least we will all know about the differences between the tanks and watch you continue the build.

Nah, the second line of my very first post (June 2008) put a year target date on it and I think at 5 hours per week, I may make it. My buddy that's helping me set his own target for us of July 4th, Independence Day.

It's a psychological boost for me to have the bench clean and organized. I'm a little anal that way. My brother's father in law was one of these guys that has everything hanging on pegboards with the silohette of each tool painted on the board so everything goes back where it belongs. He once told my brother (who is a very succseeful $$$ landscaper and totally freaking unorganized) "Its a nice way to live, but a terrible way to be."  I empathize with that.

Re: the tanks, all I know is these tanks are different dimensions but why? I got the left side petcock tank from the junkroom at CycleRecycle Part II upstairs. If you've ever been there its like a horror film. Giant room on the second floor of an old downtown building. Walking around with scores of frontends, frames, piles of gas tanks, rooting around and praying like a monk the floor will hold up long enough for me to get out. The tank wasn't marked I just did a visual and bolted.

[mystic_1]

Bench looks great.  Some work sessions I have out in the garage are strictly for cleanup and organization.  I find that if I don't maintain good "workshop discipline" then my workspace quickly becomes very chaotic  I'm a fellow user of clear plastic storage bins for parts and tools.  They're stackable, portable, affordable, and you can see what's in them from the sides.  They also work well for soaking said parts in various cleaners, so they're dual-purpose.

Regarding your tank mount issues, I don't have my steel tank here at the house, it's in storage as I'm re-fitting a fiberglass tank, but IIRC the U-Brackets are only welded on at the "ends" of the U, and the bottom of the "U" is unsupported.  So I'd think you could do a straight cut at the bottom of the U and then spread it slightly, which would allow the tank to slide forward.  You could then rivet or weld a piece to take up the gap and make things rigid again.

Did you ever try out that idea of making an eccentric mount out of wood?  I still think that may work, but you'd have to ensure that the wooden mount didn't rotate on the frame's pin, otherwise your forward offset becomes upward or downward offset.

mystic_1


Edit: terry beat me to it.  Guess he's more eccentric than me


Edit 2:  The petcock changed sides in, I think, between 72 and 73.  I've run a stock 73 tank on my K0 for years but then again my seat is not stock.  I am able to get the rear strap over the tab, however.

-m

[MCRider]

Well how's that for deja vu Ron, it's just after 7 am on Monday morning here and as I'm reading your post there's a knock on the door and the delivery lady is standing there with a box of your conrods for me!

Have you gone off the idea of some front mounts drilled offset? Seems easier to me that cutting that beautiful tank? I've got some nice teflon bar here, I can make you up a pair if you'd like?

I imagine that the Phaedrus I black tank will hang in your garage as a reminder of your halcyon days, but if you ever decide to move it on, you can send it my way, I'll hang it in my "Hall of Cool Things", ha ha! Cheers, Terry.

Glad you got em!

I'm going hot and cold with your idea vs mine. If I hadn't gotten sidetracked with the pet cock weirdness I'd have cut mine this AM and been done with it. It's not such a deal, I'd only cut where it can't be seen, and the paint job has to be redone anyway eventually.

You have CB750 tanks, do they all have petcocks with the 2 screws through the sediment bowl, or the large single nut where the tank has a threaded spigot.

I'll be keeping the black tank thank you. I'll put you in my will.  

[MCRider]

Bench looks great.  Some work sessions I have out in the garage are strictly for cleanup and organization.  I find that if I don't maintain good "workshop discipline" then my workspace quickly becomes very chaotic  I'm a fellow user of clear plastic storage bins for parts and tools.  They're stackable, portable, affordable, and you can see what's in them from the sides.  They also work well for soaking said parts in various cleaners, so they're dual-purpose.

Regarding your tank mount issues, I don't have my steel tank here at the house, it's in storage as I'm re-fitting a fiberglass tank, but IIRC the U-Brackets are only welded on at the "ends" of the U, and the bottom of the "U" is unsupported.  So I'd think you could do a straight cut at the bottom of the U and then spread it slightly, which would allow the tank to slide forward.  You could then rivet or weld a piece to take up the gap and make things rigid again.

Did you ever try out that idea of making an eccentric mount out of wood?  I still think that may work, but you'd have to ensure that the wooden mount didn't rotate on the frame's pin, otherwise your forward offset becomes upward or downward offset.

mystic_1


Edit: terry beat me to it.  Guess he's more eccentric than me


Edit 2:  The petcock changed sides in, I think, between 72 and 73.  I've run a stock 73 tank on my K0 for years but then again my seat is not stock.  I am able to get the rear strap over the tab, however.

-m

LAst thing first, I was thinking that was what I was doing, a 73+ tank on a K2 frame. But my seat won't close so something's weird.

Both my tanks, the "U" is part of a flange that is welded so the entire U is strongly supported. The distance between the Us is a full 1/2 wider on the left mount vs the right.  ??

The eccentric bumper idea is doable, but I'm leaning to cutting the U and rebuilding it as necessary. I've never used a cutting wheel on a Dremel so it's something new.

I love the Rubbermaid, seeing what's inside is great, besides the fact I've marked them all with Sharpies for what's inside.

[andy750]

The petcock changed side 74-75 as my 74 (and 72 and previous 74) both have right side petcocks -stock tanks. My friends K5 is on the left....

cheers
Andy

[Terry in Australia]

Well how's that for deja vu Ron, it's just after 7 am on Monday morning here and as I'm reading your post there's a knock on the door and the delivery lady is standing there with a box of your conrods for me!

Have you gone off the idea of some front mounts drilled offset? Seems easier to me that cutting that beautiful tank? I've got some nice teflon bar here, I can make you up a pair if you'd like?

I imagine that the Phaedrus I black tank will hang in your garage as a reminder of your halcyon days, but if you ever decide to move it on, you can send it my way, I'll hang it in my "Hall of Cool Things", ha ha! Cheers, Terry.

Glad you got em!

I'm going hot and cold with your idea vs mine. If I hadn't gotten sidetracked with the pet cock weirdness I'd have cut mine this AM and been done with it. It's not such a deal, I'd only cut where it can't be seen, and the paint job has to be redone anyway eventually.

You have CB750 tanks, do they all have petcocks with the 2 screws through the sediment bowl, or the large single nut where the tank has a threaded spigot.

I'll be keeping the black tank thank you. I'll put you in my will.  

No worries Ron, I tried both a K2 and a K6 tank on my K2 and they both mounted the same, so I don't know what's up with the purple tank. I've "spread" the distance between the "U"s on a tank accidentally when I tried pumping out a dent with compressed air, (not really a real good idea..............) but that still wouldn't account for the mounting point differences.

Oh, and yes please, leave me in your will, can I have your tidy workshop too? Mine looks like a bomb went off in it!

[MCRider]

SNIP

No worries Ron, I tried both a K2 and a K6 tank on my K2 and they both mounted the same, so I don't know what's up with the purple tank. I've "spread" the distance between the "U"s on a tank accidentally when I tried pumping out a dent with compressed air, (not really a real good idea..............) but that still wouldn't account for the mounting point differences.

Oh, and yes please, leave me in your will, can I have your tidy workshop too? Mine looks like a bomb went off in it!

Yeah those mounting differences are truly weird, but solvable. I'm still wondering if its maybe a CB450 5 speed tank which looked for all the world like a CB750 tank, but it could have had minor differences. They had the same front ends too.

And yes if you can move it you can have it. 

[Terry in Australia]

No worries Ron, I bought a nice OEM candy ruby red CB450 tank from a bike wreckers a few years ago, he mistakenly thought it was a 750 tank, (so assumed it was worth a fortune) but when I pointed out the differences, he just about gave it to me.

I then re-sold it on EBay, but didn't get much for it because the shipping was quite expensive, and I think that scared off international buyers. I don't remember all that much about it, but I do remember the rear mount was way different to a 750. Cheers, Terry.  

[MCRider]

I think I'm done with the rear hub. I used the 320,600,1000, 1500 grit routine to get the final notch out. Then I chucked it up in the truing stand and used the drill with a loose buffer and white rouge to finish it off. Pretty happy with result.



The HD Spokes won't hardly go into the holes (especially the inside spokes) without nicking the holes. I'll have to see if I can look the other way or Dremel off a bit of spoke head so it will go in without nicking the hub. Details.

I hope to assemble the wheel Friday PM, get the tire installed 140/70-17, on Sat AM, then do the final frame mock up Sunday AM.

[Really?]

Wish you were closer to me with those stands.  Nice shine!

[MCRider]

Wish you were closer to me with those stands.  Nice shine!

Thanks! The truing stand came from here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MOTORCYCLE-WHEEL-BALANCING-STAND-TRUING_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1205Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem390008890371QQitemZ390008890371QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

[Really?]

I found this at HF, any good or even work?

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=98488

[MCRider]

I found this at HF, any good or even work?

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=98488

That would work but as the label implies its really just for balancing not truing, You need the hub holders separate from the balancing bearings to hold the wheel while truing. It doesn't hold the wheel firmly enough on just the balancing bearings.

On ebay there are some dual purpose stands (truing and balancing) priced between mine and the harbor freight balancing stand.

But if one wants, people here have trued them on the bike by mounting the wheel in the swingarm, or fork. That works fine. Then you could use the balancer to balance.

Need some of these to complete the package. http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/1/4/77/613/CLASS/Street-Bike-Wheel-Weights-Tire-Accessories-Accessories.aspx

[Really?]

Thanks for the thumbs up, time to order, lol.

[MCRider]

I got busy and finally built my rear wheel. No need to repeat what has been covered here many times. There is an excellent step by step in the FAQs under "Wheels and Tires" I used it to remind me how to do it. I've done many wheels in an earlier life but its been 25 years.
Unique to mine vs a steel rim and stock spokes as in the FAQ, I'm using a 3.5" 17" drop center aluminum Excel rim and oversize Stainless Spokes. (A quick aside, I went to East Coast Wheels to try someone new vs Buchanons which everyone uses. But when I got my box it had a Buchanons return address and the instructions had Buchanons on the papers. The price was the same both places so ECW must just be fronting for Buchanons. No problem just curious. But Bucanons couldn't provide the rim I asked for, but ECW could!?) The inside spokes had to be encouraged to get through the hub holes, leaving behind a scratch in the hub. You can see the nick in the hole of the spoke that's in all the way. Very small detail, no one could notice. If I hit it with the buffing wheel it will take the rawness off of it. In the pic, the spoke not in would have to be pushed hard to make the bend, causing the nick, but once in it floats free.


The rim was drilled perfectly, the nipples were very tight in the holes. It was difficult to thread in the last 5 spokes or so. I had to use the mechanical advantage of the spokes, tighten them opposite of the spokes being threaded to get enough space between the hub and rim to get the spoke nipple started. Once they were all in, I loosened all spokes out equally and trued it up. All in all a very tight wheel.

A few spokes had threads showing and these were ground down per instructions with a Dremel. Counting up 3 spokes, you can see the threads showing. About 6 spokes in total.

So I finished about 2 this afternoon, ran it down to Cycle Outfitters where I had pre-bought a IRC 140/70-17 tire. I went with IRC as it was the cheapest in that size and I wasn't sure the size would fit. They installed it, looking good. (Always give the vendors some advertising. Southside Indpls.)


Mocked it up in the swingarm and frame, holding breath for clearance.

As far as the swingarm is concerned, plenty of room. Wheel is pushed full forward.

I'll be making my own chainguard, more like a chain lube guard. So that's not a problem. The chainrun itself has plenty of room for a bigger tire.
So the BrakeStay is the unknown. In the stock position the brakestay has about a millimeter of room.

Yeah! Looking further, if one were to move the brakestay to the outside of the bracket on the swingarm a 150 or 160 should fit. After I wear out the 140, I may size up one.

Now with that finalized, I can have the final mods made on the frame and swingarm. That's for next week.