Topic: Phaedrus: CB750 RestoMod - Update: 09/23/21 w/ new video

[MCRider]

Its slow going here, but we put in the time. Re-polished the top tree:
Here the left side is redone, the right is old tarnished

Put the polisher on back door apron, less mess inside. Note the pesky mole tunnel. Aargh!

Background is the Fernandez Racing Compound.
Spent more time smoothing welds. Close to done. Spent some time with motormounts. The one Rob at Voxonda made for me has 1/10thmm clearance in frame boss.

Nicely made SS bolt. Center section slightly less diameter to facilitate install I assume. Once tightened up into his doublesided motor mount, very tight fit.
The rear lower mount on which the footpegs mount is 1/2mm clearance between bolt and frame. The front lower is a full 1mm clearance. It needs to be longer as well to catch the engine guards. The stock bolt is often used with engine guards, but you have to remove any washers and the bolt threads into a tapped out tab in the engine guard catching about 3 threads. Not near enough to apply proper torque without stripping.

So I'm hoping to talk Saldana into making snug fit bolts. The front one will be long enough to put a proper flat, lock and nut on each end. They'll have the frame to fit them. With these tighter fit items, HondaMan swingarm, and fork tricks, hoping to have a very stiff wigglefree platform.

Does anyone know what would be a good fluid to wipe the black off of polished aluminum parts? water ain't it.

[voxonda]

................................The one Rob at Voxonda made for me has 1/10thmm clearance in frame boss.

Nicely made SS bolt. Center section slightly less diameter to facilitate install I assume. Once tightened up into his doublesided motor mount, very tight fit..............................

Hey Ron,
Hope you like the mount. Purpose is to tighten things up a bit, as you can see Honda used very wide tolerances. The slightly less diameter also has a benefit on the lathe, stainless steel in that proportions, smaller diameter and this length will give some diameter differences when turned on the whole length and second it does not contribute to the fitment.

Rob.

[MCRider]

Yes Rob, love the part. One thing this project is for me, besides the work and the final product, is a way to display other peoples work. And then have the opportunity to talk about. "Yeah, this part was made by so and so in such a place. It does this better than stock becuase, etc..."

I'm pretty good at assembling things, but I have no fabrication skills. So its fun for me to buy this stuff from guys like you.

[MCRider]

Little steps: I'm going to need to de-rustify my tank. Silly me I had it painted years before i was ready for it, and it has re-rusted. I originally cleaned it with muriatic acid. Boy was it clean! But I hadn't heard of "flash rust" and now its just regular rust. First step to plug off the fuel tap bung. It takes a 1/2" FIP (Female Iron Pipe) cap.


I know many have used a rubber plug. I wanted something more positive as I'd knock a plug out for sure. I'm thinking of using a mild Phosphate Acid that leaves a zinc phosphate layer treatment. Originally sold as "OxiSolv" Eastwood seems to have taken it over and named it Fast Etch. I've had good luck with it on non-MC things, so we'll see. I'll do the bolts and nuts thing first to knock out the big pieces, then swish the product. Whatever is retrieved is re-usable. I'm not sure what it might do to the paint, so I'll practice on non-Phaedrus tank first. Ultimately, the purple tank needs to be repainted so no loss.  But the product didn't hurt any of the paint on non-MC applications, so we'll see.

I don't like the liner products, I'm sure many have had good luck. Though I realize there are multiple ways of doing this, all totally fine.

[MCRider]

So I've got all this old hardware from 2 parts bikes and Phaedrus, been clogging up my parts cleaner for months. Sample bolt is black with combo goo and rust. Wire brush on drill brought out the shine. So I cleaned and bagged hardware for a few hours. Hopefully it doesn't rerust, I used as little pressure on the wire brush as possible to clean them. Axles, spacers, brackets, all kinds of crap. Can't use it or sell it if its cruddy.
Black

Shiny


Here's a PO goof that'll make you (or me) not feel so bad about doing dumb stuff. CB750 Speedo Drive plate. The PO didn't have it lined up properly, then must've really cranked down on the axle nut. Made 2 new drive slots in the plate.

You can see how the metal distorted under the "new" slot on the left. Dang.

[Ichiban 4]

Does anyone know what would be a good fluid to wipe the black off of polished aluminum parts? water ain't it.

[/quote]
_________________________________________________________

Ron..

I use either methanol or acetone to remove buffing compound from polished aluminum (or any other polished metal actually). 

Methanol (denatured alcohol..shellac thinner) works good most of the time.  Acetone always works..but is more volatile..and can screw up paint..other things it gets on..as you probably know. 

I've also got accustomed to using nitrile gloves when handling things like acetone..which vastly helps the skin.

We used to use trichloroethane (which works best of all)..but is verboten nowadays due to health and environmental concerns.

I'd try the denatured alcohol first.  Think it will prove satisfactory to you.

Al / Ichi

[MCRider]

Thanks Al/Ichi! That sounds great. I'll bet it works fine.

[BeSeeingYou]

Little steps: I'm going to need to de-rustify my tank. Silly me I had it painted years before i was ready for it, and it has re-rusted. I originally cleaned it with muriatic acid. Boy was it clean! But I hadn't heard of "flash rust" and now its just regular rust. First step to plug off the fuel tap bung. It takes a 1/2" FIP (Female Iron Pipe) cap.


I know many have used a rubber plug. I wanted something more positive as I'd knock a plug out for sure. I'm thinking of using a mild Phosphate Acid that leaves a zinc phosphate layer treatment. Originally sold as "OxiSolv" Eastwood seems to have taken it over and named it Fast Etch. I've had good luck with it on non-MC things, so we'll see. I'll do the bolts and nuts thing first to knock out the big pieces, then swish the product. Whatever is retrieved is re-usable. I'm not sure what it might do to the paint, so I'll practice on non-Phaedrus tank first. Ultimately, the purple tank needs to be repainted so no loss.  But the product didn't hurt any of the paint on non-MC applications, so we'll see.

I don't like the liner products, I'm sure many have had good luck. Though I realize there are multiple ways of doing this, all totally fine.

In the boating world we never use galvanized metal for fuel tanks.  This is a zinc coating and it reacts with fuel over time. 
This fast etch stuff I thought was to prepare and protect metal for eventually coating with paint or some other coating.  I don't know if this zinc phosphate would cause similar problems but it would be something to check before proceeding.  We have had some long discussions on tank cleaning lately.

[MCRider]

[/quote]

In the boating world we never use galvanized metal for fuel tanks.  This is a zinc coating and it reacts with fuel over time. 
This fast etch stuff I thought was to prepare and protect metal for eventually coating with paint or some other coating.  I don't know if this zinc phosphate would cause similar problems but it would be something to check before proceeding.  We have had some long discussions on tank cleaning lately.
[/quote]

Hmmm. Interesting point. yes the Zinc Phosphate coating is touted as a primer for paint/powdercoat prep. I've used it on my utility trailer and hitch. Works great on the rust and I just leave the black zinc coating as is and its remained rustfree for years. Thought I could do same on inside of tank, but if it reacts to the fuel... hmmmm.

I've read virtually all the threads on this subject. May go a different route.

[MCRider]

There are many good threads on the subject of de-rustifying a gas tank. So not to take away from them, I'll add my .02: Doing a broad internet search, every method posted here has been used elsewhere including electrolysis. All have plusses and minusses.

Phosphoric acid comes up a lot. In fact Yamaha has a factory part number for their 2 part solution: part A 1 pint of Phosphoric acid to be introduced to a tank full of water. Let sit for 2 hours and drain. Follow by Part b which seems to be a CYA acid neutralizer.

Milkstone Reducer came up in the search, is a farm product, acid based. It was promoted by the VJMC and I bought a gallon from them some time ago. Never used it.

Any system which ends with the latex liner, while confirmed as a good system when meticulously applied, has the problem of lifting and flaking off when the application is less than meticulous.

Someone here had a tank that was flaking the liner, I ran across a system for stripping it. I lost it, but memory was Phosphoric Acid.

In all cases the concentration of the acid was never discussed. It's on the front of the container, but never in print. It seems to be relatively mild, while protection should always be used. Coca Cola strength times 4 maybe.

[MCRider]

Checked with Eastwood where i bought the FastEtch (phosphoric acid w/zinc) They said it was fine for gas tanks but should rinse with acetone.  I don't know if they really know.

I'm looking for the lazy way out, one step product. This may be it. One step, renders rust benign, paintable, (not that I'm going to paint the inside of the tank  ), there is nothing left over. The treatment dries in the tank.

http://www.theruststore.com/Rust-Converters-C10.aspx

Just curious.

[Tim.]

I like the POR-15 motorcycle tank kit.  I've used it a couple of times.  You clean/degrease the tank with their metal prep product, and then dry it completely, then toss in the small can of liner, which is actually a paint of some sort.  It is NOT a thick goopy latex coating like KREEM or perhaps some other products.  It is very runny and coats the inside of the tank easily.  It is thin like paint, or even thinner.

I read the instructions on the rust converter product you linked to and it's just the same - clean/degrease, then apply the product.  They talk about applying it with a paintbrush or roller - not sure if its thin enough to spread around on the inside of a fuel tank.

Downside of any of these things is if you get anything on your finished paint job, it will never come off.  The POR-15 product is permanent.  Nothing short of an abrasive process would remove it to my knowledge.

[MCRider]

I like the POR-15 motorcycle tank kit.  I've used it a couple of times.  You clean/degrease the tank with their metal prep product, and then dry it completely, then toss in the small can of liner, which is actually a paint of some sort.  It is NOT a thick goopy latex coating like KREEM or perhaps some other products.  It is very runny and coats the inside of the tank easily.  It is thin like paint, or even thinner.

I read the instructions on the rust converter product you linked to and it's just the same - clean/degrease, then apply the product.  They talk about applying it with a paintbrush or roller - not sure if its thin enough to spread around on the inside of a fuel tank.

Downside of any of these things is if you get anything on your finished paint job, it will never come off.  The POR-15 product is permanent.  Nothing short of an abrasive process would remove it to my knowledge.

Thanks for the perspective. I've got a couple of tanks to experiment on. They are not in dire need so much, but the paint is sacrificial. My project tank will need to be repainted eventually, but I'd like to keep the paint that's there for a while if I can.

I noticed on the second reading that the rustconverter product may be too thick to use as you suggest and they say don't dilute it. But it is a onestep system.

[MCRider]

So I finally got the frame back to the machinist for the last modifications:
1. Weld up the steering neck gussets where they are pressed onto the front downtubes.
2. Fix the brake pedal tab which was bent up in a get off years ago.
3. weld up a couple of holes i had drilled in the frame for number plates years ago.
4. Make a plate to pre-load the spring in the primary chain tensioner, per Rob at Voxonda.com
5. Drill a large hole in frame gusset to mount the ignition switch.
6. 1 hour shop time to grind and smooth welds. (I did all I felt comfortable doing. He said he could dress it up some more)
7. Make 2 motor mounts from SS or 4130 Chrome moly. The long one the pegs mount on, and the lower front long one, longer to hold the engine guards, and convert to nuts on both ends, rather than the hex on one end and a nut oon the other as was stock. Make them friction fit into frame.
That should do it for the frame.

Then we stopped by the powder coaters on the way home as that will be the next step.  They have hundreds of color combinations so I was torn. But gold is still the primary color, that hasn't changed. For now we've settled on a lively silver metallic basecoat with candy gold on top.

They stock the most powder of anyone in town. He said if he did have to special order, I would only pay for the powder i use as they would just put the rest in stock. Other outfits had me paying for the whole order whether i used it all or not.

Should really "pop" in the light.

[mystic_1]

4. Make a plate to pre-load the spring in the primary chain tensioner, per Rob at Voxonda.com

Can you share some more detail about this mod?  Are you doing it to compensate for a worn spring, or is this a good idea even with a new primary tensioner?


Looking forward to seeing your frame all painted up.  I like seeing bikes with frame colors other than black.  Toying with the idea myself, but dunno what color I would choose.

cheers
mystic_1

[MCRider]

4. Make a plate to pre-load the spring in the primary chain tensioner, per Rob at Voxonda.com

Can you share some more detail about this mod?  Are you doing it to compensate for a worn spring, or is this a good idea even with a new primary tensioner?


Looking forward to seeing your frame all painted up.  I like seeing bikes with frame colors other than black.  Toying with the idea myself, but dunno what color I would choose.

cheers
mystic_1

I couldn't come up with the picture, but in some discussion about the prim chain tensioner, Rob posted a picture of a plate he had made that sits in the base of the tensioner and gives a little pre-load to the spring. The plate is 1/8 in thick. Its held in place by the bolt that holds the tensioner in place.  I thought it was a neat idea.

On page 16 of this thread, is a short discussion on the tensioner and chains. I'll be using a new tensioner, with the preload. I wouldn't do it to one that is already sacked. You can see in the photos how one with about 50,000 miles was really sacked. Danger with pre-load is too much can fatigue the spring prematurely, I think. We'll see.

The bike in my avatar had a silver painted frame. Always got the question, what kind of frame is that?  It looked so different from a black frame.

Don't know why I'm stuck on gold for this one, came to me in a 1980s haze probably. I almost switched to silver, but I'm sticking with the gold. Hope it looks good with the purple and the chrome.


PS: Found it (tensioner piece) Its on page 3 of this thread.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=45361.msg474939#msg474939

[mystic_1]

Good info Ron thanks!  I have a new primary tensioner (thanks again mkramer1121!) and now I get to wrestle with myself as to whether or not to add this mod    My build is mostly stock so this mod is probably not, strictly speaking, necessary but if kept reasonable like you are doing I'm not seeing too much in the way of possible downsides.


cheers
mystic_1

[voxonda]

Here are that pic's:


Do not be afraid for too much pre-load, have ridden for years with that mod.
Will keep the noise away for a longer period of time and will follow the chain(s) a bid longer, but the effect of 2 chains with one tensioner stays.

Rob

[MCRider]

Thanks Rob. That's them.

[Terry in Australia]

I like the POR-15 motorcycle tank kit.  I've used it a couple of times.  You clean/degrease the tank with their metal prep product, and then dry it completely, then toss in the small can of liner, which is actually a paint of some sort.  It is NOT a thick goopy latex coating like KREEM or perhaps some other products.  It is very runny and coats the inside of the tank easily.  It is thin like paint, or even thinner.

I read the instructions on the rust converter product you linked to and it's just the same - clean/degrease, then apply the product.  They talk about applying it with a paintbrush or roller - not sure if its thin enough to spread around on the inside of a fuel tank.

Downside of any of these things is if you get anything on your finished paint job, it will never come off.  The POR-15 product is permanent.  Nothing short of an abrasive process would remove it to my knowledge.

I like POR15 too, I've (successfully) done three tanks with it recently, but all BS aside, I don't know that it's any better than Kreem. In my experience Kreem was a good product that copped a lot of flak by folks who did a half-arsed job then blamed the product, rather than themselves. The real advantage of POR15 (to me at least) is that it is a silvery color, so isn't as noticeable as Kreem when you pop the lid.

I found a local supplier who would sell me a litre of the actual POR15 tank sealer, which saved me a lot of money over buying three kits, and not needing a degreaser (none of the tanks were from a two stroke bike, and anyway, why would an oily tank rust?) I just re-used the supplied "Marine Clean" (phosphoric acid) from the kit that Sean sent me 3 times, with a handfull of nuts and bolts (don't use brass or stainless as you can't pluck them out with a magnet afterwards) to help abrade any rust.

One tank had good paint on it, so I sealed all the orifices with aluminium tape while I cleaned it out, then tipped in some acetone (MEK is better) to dry it out, then once dry, sealed the tank again while I swirled the sealant around. If you seal the tank completely the POR15 will never dry, so once you think you've swished it around sufficiently, make sure you unseal the lid so the stuff will dry. Even though the weather was still in the 70's and 80's when I did it, I left it a fortnight to dry before I added gas, and so far, no dribbles.

Keep up the good work Ron, I'm looking forward to seeing the finished beast! P.S., I finally got a new tire on that wheel with your beautiful wider Borrani rim and HD spokes fitted, I "loosely" laced it but chickened out of the trueing process, and had my friend Jeff true it and fit a new Michelin tire (3.25 x 19 was the widest I could find, is that what you used?) and tube, and this weekend I'm going to mount the discs and install it on my K1, so I can then use the K1 front wheel with the Bridgestone tire on my K0 to cure the "flat spot" blues on that bike. It's like motorcycle musical chairs in my workshop, ha ha! Cheers, Terry.

[MCRider]

Whew! Thanks for all that. I accept that the POR15 and other product/systems are good. I agree from what i've read that the negative reviews are because of a "half-arsed job" that went bad.  My problem is I am perfectly capable of producing a "half-arsed job" with a poor result. And since I usually try not to pass on blame for my HAJs to someone else, I have to be careful what I start.     Anywho, I'll be doing something and I'll report back.

Glad you got that wheel laced up. I had a 110/90-19 Bridgestone tire on it, roughly a 4.00x19? That was a ton of tire literally, maybe too much. I had to remove one caliper to get the wheel on the fork, then replace the caliper turning one of the bolts one flat at a time, not much room to work with the shoulder of the rim right there. A 3.25 x19 will be spread a little more on that rim than on a stock rim and should look and be fine.

Work progresses slow but sure on the beast. Thanks!  It'll have a 110/80-17 front, much more petite.

[MCRider]

Got a call from the machinist, the frame work is done. they don't mess around. They had to order a stick of stainless to turn down the new motor mount bolts, so that'll be a few days. I'll drop in on them tomorrow to see what I've missed telling them to do. Once I get it back, it'll be soon at the powdercoaters. I'll want to mock up the fenders, battery box, essentially all the stuff that will be bolted on the frame as I won't get a second chance. Still I'm sure I'll miss something and I'll just have to live with it.

Looking ahead to the engine, the powdercoaters suggested calling these guys: http://www.redistripindy.com/

I did. They suggested dipping the crankcases in their "cold tank" to strip the paint. But he wants to see them first and he'll recommend something. No idea of cost, but I'll check them out. Sounds like the ticket. Clean to the bone with no residual, ready for paint. I have 3 sets of cases, some cylinders and other parts. If its not too expensive...

Then I'd have a set to sell.

[MCRider]

Dropped in on the machinist this Am to see what had been done and what's left to be done. They'd done what I'd asked and more so all's good.

Still waiting on a stick of stainless to make hand fit motor mounts. They said they'd go 1/2" on the rear and 7/16" on the lower front.  The frame mounts holes were elongated with age and to true them back up, slight enlargements are necessary. The footpegs will need a few thou larger holes, and maybe the crankcases too, just the lower front. The rear on the cases is .55" so still some give there. And they warned me if we tighten all this up the other mounts may not line up. I think it'll be OK but a partial mockup will be necessary before powder.

Part of this detail is silly and unnecessary, but its what I want to do (or have done). Part of it is learning for the next project which will be a rat sleeper cafe racer. If I ever finish this one.

[MCRider]

Took my crankcases to the dip/strippers. He said he didn't know if dipping them in his cold tank would be appropriate. He indicated they would still need to be cleansed thoughly to get residual chemical off. He wasn't too enthused about doing it so I took the hint and left.

Tomorrow we go to the blasters.  Live and learn.

Dropped off 3 kickstarter shafts at the shot-peeners. They'll be stronger when he's done with them. But for heat treating, I'll need another source or just forget about it.

[Terry in Australia]

G'Day Ron, knowing how you are so anal about attention to detail, I'd say, sure, go ahead and get your cases blasted, (as I've done several times myself) but I've found that a good quality paint stripper (non caustic) some MEK or Acetone and some wet and dry sandpaper is a safer way of removing old case paint.

I bought a 5 gallon tub of acetone to wash the paint and grease, crud, dead bugs, small rocks, carbon  etc off my cylinder block and head on my F2 (black painted everything) and they came up looking almost like new, with absolutely no worries about that one small teaspoonfull of engine destroying blasting grit circulating in my oil, wiping out all of my rare and mega expensive engine components as I go.

As I said, I know you'll be really careful, and I still intend to have my 1060cc engine build's badly weathered cases sandblasted (as opposed to bead blasted) to increase the surface area for better cooling, but it doesn't hurt to remind everyone reading this of the dangers of grit blasting as a paint removal method. Cheers, Terry.