Topic: I may be Canadian but............

[seaweb11]

This oil price crap$$$$$$  is starting to get to me.
The US and Canada seems to be in the minority regarding civil unrest in other Countries  with regard to gas prices.  How long do we really have?

 What about a $10.00 + -??......per gallon price in 4-5 years.............what then? How do we as a Continent so dependent come to grips with all this sh*t.  It's Happening NOW!

I have actually caught myself thinking if the #$%* hits the fan we can sink the ferry to keep you all out
We all have gardens and we all love each other

Sorry Had to add this. It was after all the research I was doing


Food Storage Ideas

Family Size: 1

Time frame 1 year

Wheat...................175 lbs
 Flour...................20 lbs
 Quinoa..................30 lbs
 Rolled Oats.............50 lbs
 White Rice..............80 lbs
 Pearled Barley..........5 lbs
 Spaghetti Or Macaroni...40 lbs
 Dry Beans...............45 lbs
 Dry Soy Beans...........2 lbs
 Dry Split Peas..........2 lbs
 Dry Lentils.............2 lbs
 Dry Soup Mix............7 lbs
 Peanut Butter...........1 qt
 Almont Butter...........1 qt
 Nonfat Dry Milk.........14 lbs
 Granulated Sugar........40 lbs
 Molasses................1 lb
 Honey...................3 lbs
 Beef Gelatin............1 lb
 Salt....................8 lbs
 Dry Yeast...............0.5 lbs
 Water...................28 gal.

Multiply items 1x per additional family size

_______________________

Found the list on a web site, here's the list for posterity

100 Items to Disappear First

1. Generators (Good ones cost dearly. Gas storage, risky. Noisy...target of thieves; maintenance etc.)
 2. Water Filters/Purifiers
 3. Portable Toilets
 4. Seasoned Firewood. Wood takes about 6 - 12 months to become dried, for home uses.
 5. Lamp Oil, Wicks, Lamps (First Choice: Buy CLEAR oil. If scarce, stockpile ANY!)
 6. Coleman Fuel. Impossible to stockpile too much.
 7. Guns, Ammunition, Pepper Spray, Knives, Clubs, Bats & Slingshots.
 8. Hand-can openers, & hand egg beaters, whisks.
 9. Honey/Syrups/white, brown sugar
 10. Rice - Beans - Wheat
 11. Vegetable Oil (for cooking) Without it food burns/must be boiled etc.,)
 12. Charcoal, Lighter Fluid (Will become scarce suddenly)
 13. Water Containers (Urgent Item to obtain.) Any size. Small: HARD CLEAR PLASTIC ONLY - note - food grade if for drinking.
 16. Propane Cylinders (Urgent: Definite shortages will occur.
 17. Survival Guide Book.
 18. Mantles: Aladdin, Coleman, etc. (Without this item, longer-term lighting is difficult.)
 19. Baby Supplies: Diapers/formula. ointments/aspirin, etc.
 20. Washboards, Mop Bucket w/wringer (for Laundry)
 21. Cookstoves (Propane, Coleman & Kerosene)
 22. Vitamins
 23. Propane Cylinder Handle-Holder (Urgent: Small canister use is dangerous without this item)
 24. Feminine Hygiene/Haircare/Skin products.
 25. Thermal underwear (Tops & Bottoms)
 26. Bow saws, axes and hatchets, Wedges (also, honing oil)
 27. Aluminum Foil Reg. & Heavy Duty (Great Cooking and Barter Item)
 28. Gasoline Containers (Plastic & Metal)
 29. Garbage Bags (Impossible To Have Too Many).
 30. Toilet Paper, Kleenex, Paper Towels
 31. Milk - Powdered & Condensed (Shake Liquid every 3 to 4 months)
 32. Garden Seeds (Non-Hybrid) (A MUST)
 33. Clothes pins/line/hangers (A MUST)
 34. Coleman's Pump Repair Kit
 35. Tuna Fish (in oil)
 36. Fire Extinguishers (or..large box of Baking Soda in every room)
 37. First aid kits
 38. Batteries (all sizes...buy furthest-out for Expiration Dates)
 39. Garlic, spices & vinegar, baking supplies
 40. Big Dogs (and plenty of dog food)
 41. Flour, yeast & salt
 42. Matches. {"Strike Anywhere" preferred.) Boxed, wooden matches will go first
 43. Writing paper/pads/pencils, solar calculators
 44. Insulated ice chests (good for keeping items from freezing in Wintertime.)
 45. Workboots, belts, Levis & durable shirts
 46. Flashlights/LIGHTSTICKS & torches, "No. 76 Dietz" Lanterns
 47. Journals, Diaries & Scrapbooks (jot down ideas, feelings, experience; Historic Times)
 48. Garbage cans Plastic (great for storage, water, transporting - if with wheels)
 49. Men's Hygiene: Shampoo, Toothbrush/paste, Mouthwash/floss, nail clippers, etc
 50. Cast iron cookware (sturdy, efficient)
 51. Fishing supplies/tools
 52. Mosquito coils/repellent, sprays/creams
 53. Duct Tape
 54. Tarps/stakes/twine/nails/rope/spikes
 55. Candles
 56. Laundry Detergent (liquid)
 57. Backpacks, Duffel Bags
 58. Garden tools & supplies
 59. Scissors, fabrics & sewing supplies
 60. Canned Fruits, Veggies, Soups, stews, etc.
 61. Bleach (plain, NOT scented: 4 to 6% sodium hypochlorite)
 62. Canning supplies, (Jars/lids/wax)
 63. Knives & Sharpening tools: files, stones, steel
 64. Bicycles...Tires/tubes/pumps/chains, etc
 65. Sleeping Bags & blankets/pillows/mats
 66. Carbon Monoxide Alarm (battery powered)
 67. Board Games, Cards, Dice
 68. d-con Rat poison, MOUSE PRUFE II, Roach Killer
 69. Mousetraps, Ant traps & cockroach magnets
 70. Paper plates/cups/utensils (stock up, folks)
 71. Baby wipes, oils, waterless & Antibacterial soap (saves a lot of water)
 72. Rain gear, rubberized boots, etc.
 73. Shaving supplies (razors & creams, talc, after shave)
 74. Hand pumps & siphons (for water and for fuels)
 75. Soysauce, vinegar, bullions/gravy/soupbase
 76. Reading glasses
 77. Chocolate/Cocoa/Tang/Punch (water enhancers)
 78. "Survival-in-a-Can"
 79. Woolen clothing, scarves/ear-muffs/mittens
 80. Boy Scout Handbook, / also Leaders Catalog
 81. Roll-on Window Insulation Kit (MANCO)
 82. Graham crackers, saltines, pretzels, Trail mix/Jerky
 83. Popcorn, Peanut Butter, Nuts
 84. Socks, Underwear, T-shirts, etc. (extras)
 85. Lumber (all types)
 86. Wagons & carts (for transport to and from)
 87. Cots & Inflatable mattress's
 88. Gloves: Work/warming/gardening, etc.
 89. Lantern Hangers
 90. Screen Patches, glue, nails, screws,, nuts & bolts
 91. Teas
 92. Coffee
 93. Cigarettes
 94. Wine/Liquors (for bribes, medicinal, etc,)
 95. Paraffin wax
 96. Glue, nails, nuts, bolts, screws, etc.
 97. Chewing gum/candies
 98. Atomizers (for cooling/bathing)
 99. Hats & cotton neckerchiefs
 100. Goats/chickens

From a Sarajevo War Survivor:
 Experiencing horrible things that can happen in a war - death of parents and
 friends, hunger and malnutrition, endless freezing cold, fear, sniper attacks.

1. Stockpiling helps. but you never no how long trouble will last, so locate near renewable food sources.

2. Living near a well with a manual pump is like being in Eden.

3. After awhile, even gold can lose its luster. But there is no luxury in war quite like toilet paper. Its surplus value is greater than gold's.

4. If you had to go without one utility, lose electricity - it's the easiest to do without (unless you're in a very nice climate with no need for heat.)

5. Canned foods are awesome, especially if their contents are tasty without heating. One of the best things to stockpile is canned gravy - it makes a lot of the dry unappetizing things you find to eat in war somewhat edible. Only needs enough heat to "warm", not to cook. It's cheap too, especially if you buy it in bulk.

6. Bring some books - escapist ones like romance or mysteries become more valuable as the war continues. Sure, it's great to have a lot of survival guides, but you'll figure most of that out on your own anyway - trust me, you'll have a lot of time on your hands.

7. The feeling that you're human can fade pretty fast. I can't tell you how many people I knew who would have traded a much needed meal for just a little bit of toothpaste, rouge, soap or cologne. Not much point in fighting if you have to lose your humanity. These things are morale-builders like nothing else.

8. Slow burning candles and matches, matches, matches

____________________

For more references on survival, google "emergency survival" & "emergency food" for the myriad of links to relevant sites. Even reading the how-to survival books might help (check out the list at Amazon by inputting "survival" in Books section and search around for particular books).

Of course, if one can afford and get over the 'irrational fear' of firearms (unless the city, state or national law where you live expressly forbid the ownership of certain firearm with the threat of jail and penalties, like New York state and Australia), the ownership of firearms will be essential to survival. A bow, set of arrows and field dressing kit & manual might help in hunting wild game for roasting & consumption. Just my idea.

[troppo]

Theres also a lot of "banned" books that are incredibly helpful that you can find if you dig arouned on the net, heres a few..........

The Anarchists Cookbook
The Black Book Companion
Home-made Traps and Snares
The Modern Survival Retreat
Cheap Shots, Ambushes and Other Lessons


As well as plenty of others on weapons for defence and survival, from blades to home-made fire-arms of all descriptions. And just as many on the good, bad and ugly uses of herbs, plants and chemicals

[nickjtc]

Well, aren't we the sunshine and light of a Sunday morning.

[troppo]

And i`m even more fun on a friday night

[alltherightpills]

Yeah man, it makes my blood boil every time I hear that big oil is making record profits while the rest of the US and Canada gets taken from behind.  I would love it if either all of the execs for the oil companies suddenly found that their multimillion dollar mansions were burned to the ground using their precious product as fuel, or if all of us got to take 2 punches on each of them. 

I love it that the Republican minority in Congress is blaming the Democrats for the rise in oil prices, when oil has gone up 106 dollars per barrel since Bush has been in office. 

And I also love it that all of the American car companies have been bellyaching about how it is going to be a really long time before we have the technology to mass produce hydrogen powered cars, and Honda just came out with the FCX Clarity, the first mass produced hydrogen powered car.  The American car companies should be allowed to die because they are so bass ackwards right now that the only way they are going to shift gears (so to speak) is to be completely reborn again.

[bwaller]

I'm a simple guy, I've worked my whole bloody life so I might retire someday and ride my CB750 a whole lot more than I do now...... not much to ask. Not much different from anyone else here I imagine.

 
By the time we DO get to that point do you suppose we'll be able to?

[754]

I have a solution,

 I have built a hideaway on a small un named island off the BC mainland, and I will survive by plundering..

 Besides I already look like a pirate..

Signed,
       The Bushman of the Okanagan

[kghost]

Looting and pillaging 

We can survive off the liberals who don't own guns or 4 wheel drive pickups. 

[Rocking-M]

Bush has the solution  ,

open up off shore drilling again........now that he has the price jacked way up
just think of the profits to be made by more drilling and oil....
of course he has no monetary interest in seeing that this happens.

[edbikerii]

Yeah right.  The FCX Clarity has a special deal going on right now from Honda.  $600/mo for a 3 year lease.  For a car with 139HP.  Sounds like a real bargain.  They won't even dare mention the purchase price on their website.  Also, it is only limited release lease in California only.

I wonder where you fill it up?   Fuel tank holds 4.5Kg of Hydrogen at 5000psi  Yes, that is FIVE THOUSAND PSI.  Yes HYDROGEN.  Anybody heard of the Hindenberg?  Imagine if the Hindenberg were holding compressed hydrogen at 5000 psi?  Every single car in existence could be a potential Oklahoma city bomb.

And what's all this BS about oil companies making huge profits when the price of oil goes up?  Have a look for yourself.  Pay special attention to the section where it says "Profit Margin":

Exxon http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=XOM
Shell  http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=RDS-B
BP     http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=BP

Now have a look at these:
Oracle  http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=ORCL
Chase  http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=JPM
Colgate http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=CL

So, selling toothpaste is just as profitable as selling oil, but if you really want to make money you'll sell your oil tankers and become a banker, or sell database software.

Yeah man, it makes my blood boil every time I hear that big oil is making record profits while the rest of the US and Canada gets taken from behind.  I would love it if either all of the execs for the oil companies suddenly found that their multimillion dollar mansions were burned to the ground using their precious product as fuel, or if all of us got to take 2 punches on each of them. 

I love it that the Republican minority in Congress is blaming the Democrats for the rise in oil prices, when oil has gone up 106 dollars per barrel since Bush has been in office. 

And I also love it that all of the American car companies have been bellyaching about how it is going to be a really long time before we have the technology to mass produce hydrogen powered cars, and Honda just came out with the FCX Clarity, the first mass produced hydrogen powered car.  The American car companies should be allowed to die because they are so bass ackwards right now that the only way they are going to shift gears (so to speak) is to be completely reborn again.

[754]

Umm there was a lengthy explanation on here, re the why of the Hindenburg burning, it was not just the Hydrogen.

 That being said, do you cringe and flee onto the grassy shoulder every time a Linde truck or other high pressure tanker goes by on the pike??  Or do you somewhat assume there is regulations that are quite safe when it comes to storage  and transport What about propane carriers and the cars & trucks that use them?.

 I would tell you about grease guns reaching 2000 plus psi in daily use, but I decided against it...

[edbikerii]

Yeah, you're damned right I get nervous whenever I see a tanker containing highly explosive material on the highway, even when not pressurized.  That's exactly why the DOT makes them put big warning signs on them.  You'd be a fool not to be nervous.  I put a lot of space between me and a tanker.  Have you ever seen the damage that is done when one explodes?   I have.

In 1997 a gasoline tanker exploded near the NYS Thruway in Yonkers, NY, near where I live.  That part of the Thruway was closed for 6 months while the repairs were made.  As we all know, Hydrogen is far more volatile than gasoline.  Hydrogen under 5000 PSI, hell AIR under 5000 PSI, makes one hell of an explosive device.

And as for the Hindenburg, no, the theory is that it wasn't JUST the Hydrogen that caused it to ignite.  Something about flammable chemicals in the outer skin.  Hydrogen sure did help it burn, though.  Have you ever made hydrogen in a lab, and then ignited it?  I have.

Good thing grease isn't the most chemically reactive substance known to mankind, unlike hydrogen.  Oh, and did anyone mention that hydrogen combines violently, and explosively, with oxygen when ignited by even the slightest spark from static electricity?  Oh, I guess we all knew that already.

Umm there was a lengthy explanation on here, re the why of the Hindenburg burning, it was not just the Hydrogen.

 That being said, do you cringe and flee onto the grassy shoulder every time a Linde truck or other high pressure tanker goes by on the pike??  Or do you somewhat assume there is regulations that are quite safe when it comes to storage  and transport What about propane carriers and the cars & trucks that use them?.

 I would tell you about grease guns reaching 2000 plus psi in daily use, but I decided against it...

[754]

I am pretty sure the guys at Honda thought about those concerns...

[edbikerii]

Good, you trust them with your family's lives.  I'll wait until the technology is proven or disproven through millions of miles of driving and crashing and burning.

I am pretty sure the guys at Honda thought about those concerns...

[nickjtc]

I think that this technology is yet another example of Honda doing it 'because they can'. Hasn't it been proven that the carbon footprint of producing viable hydrogen is larger than that of producing any other combustion material? And, as already mentioned, where the hell are you going to be able to fill up??

We (North Americans) are just going to have to realise that we don't need to brag about the size of our genitals, as represented in the size of the vehicles we drive, and do the European thing and drive cars/vehicles which are much more economical.

There has been a huge interest in grey market Japanese vans and trucks being brought into BC. The problem is that they are set up for left hand driving, but they are diminutive in size and have much smaller engines. Of course it probably won't be long until some bureaucrat decides that having the steering wheel on the 'wrong' side is too dangerous, and then bans them.

[6pkrunner]

I am pretty sure the guys at Honda thought about those concerns...

They'll have to be selective where they sell it then. I live in the rust belt of North American and most cars are reduced to chunks of rust within 5 to 7 years. Love to see a very high pressure tank slowly corrode and produce  highways full of time bombs. What about high speed collisions? If you survive the impact the explosion will take care of the rest...and the hapless poor souls attempting a rescue.

I smell a field day for lawyers.

[BobbyR]

Umm there was a lengthy explanation on here, re the why of the Hindenburg burning, it was not just the Hydrogen.

 That being said, do you cringe and flee onto the grassy shoulder every time a Linde truck or other high pressure tanker goes by on the pike??  Or do you somewhat assume there is regulations that are quite safe when it comes to storage  and transport What about propane carriers and the cars & trucks that use them?.

 I would tell you about grease guns reaching 2000 plus psi in daily use, but I decided against it...

A Propane carrier crashed on Route 287 in White Plains NY few years back. The tank took off like a rocket and crashed into
residential neighborhood. A lot of homes were damaged or destroyed.

[BobbyR]

I have actually caught myself thinking if the #$%* hits the fan we can sink the ferry to keep you all out
We all have gardens and we all love each other

Of course, if one can afford and get over the 'irrational fear' of firearms (unless the city, state or national law where you live expressly forbid the ownership of certain firearm with the threat of jail and penalties, like New York state and Australia), the ownership of firearms will be essential to survival. A bow, set of arrows and field dressing kit & manual might help in hunting wild game for roasting & consumption. Just my idea.

In NY outside of NYC you can own all of the long guns you want. Don't sink the Ferry you may need it, just tie it up. Stockpile Ammo which would become the currency.

The price of gas will come down to  level the Oil companies want it to be. There was talk the Oil companies hs a del with the carmakers. The carmakers kept the mileage down and the oil companies kept the price reasonable. The carmakers were stabbed in the back, so you may see the MPG climb quickly.

[edbikerii]

Yes, and Honda are not SELLING the FCX Clarity, only LEASING it, with maintenance included in the lease.  Assuming that the tanks can somehow be made strong enough, corrosion-resistant enough, and fire-proof enough to hold 5000 PSI indefinitely (carbon-fiber wrapped in asbestos may be fireproof for a while), even a small leak at 5000 PSI will quickly fill a garage with explosive hydrogen.  One dumbass mechanic (and we all know at least ONE dumbass mechanic) can screw up one of those extremely high-pressure fittings, and kabloom, there goes your nice shiny car, your family, your garage, your house, and maybe a nieghbor's house or two.

Yes, grease is under high pressure in a grease gun, hydraulic lines, etc., but grease is non-compressible (like water and gasoline).  It does not rapidly and violently expand when the pressure vessel is damaged, unlike hydrogen, air and other gases.  Add to that the extreme chemical volatility of hydrogen and you've got yourself a nice little bomb.  I've heard horror stories of air tanks with only 100 psi failing and injuring people very badly.

By the way, the compressive strength of typical concrete used in residential construction is only 2500 - 4000 PSI, so you'd better pour that garage wall pretty thick to keep your Clarity from blowing up your house.

Add to all this the cost of generating the electricity necessary to produce the hydrogen through hydrolysis, and you're not even economically viable.  Unless you live in Norway or Iceland where they have infinite hydro-electric or geo-thermal resources to produce cheap electricity, you're still going to either be burning hydocarbon fuels to produce the hydrogen or building a ton of nuclear plants.

[BobbyR]

Here is a decent article hydrogen vehicles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_vehicle

[TwoTired]

Don't half the barbeques on the north American continent use bottled propane under pressure?  I seen fork lifts used this fuel supply, too?  Safety record seems pretty good.
Aren't the techniques for propane distribution similar if not the same as Hydrogen?  I wonder how many Oxy/acetylene tanks are there in the world that routinely DON'T blow up?

OK there is a difference in vessel storage pressure.  But, the Vessels are not new technology.  Designed vessels are capable of more than twice the planed storage pressure.  They are tested/checked before use and refill, have pressure relief valves to vent, should higher than filled pressures occur, precisely to prevent explosions.

As for the Hindenburg.  It burned due to causes other than Hydrogen (and it wasn't even being used as a fuel or in a liquid state).  But, then, so does the unused fuel in an jet or plane crash, auto crash, etc.  Do you then blame the fuel for the disaster?  Clearly, we could reduce the plane and car disasters if we just ban the fuel being used.
Can it be more inherently dangerous than your average Pinto?

I do not understand the pervasive phobia and negative hype about hydrogen as inherently dangerous.  It seems to fall under the umbrella of being fearful about the unknown and the folk lore of "old wives".

Certainly, there are problems to overcome to make many technologies useful.  For Hydrogen, I don't think storage is one of them.  Acceptance may be one of them, simply due to the stigma exploited by the uninformed or fearful.  You can try to make things foolproof.  But, there are some pretty smart fools out there.

There are certainly problems with hydrogen fueled cars.  One is that if it uses the air supply for combustion.  It removes oxygen from the atmosphere and fixes it into stable water.  While in the ideal case it doesn't pollute the air, we kinda need the oxygen in the air to sustain our human existence.  Photosynthesis can put it back, during the day, if there are enough surviving plants.

Another issue is the if an IC engine combusts the fuel with atmospheric oxygen, there is nitrogen that comes with it.  NOx byproducts are also produced from the (now) 76% nitrogen in the atmosphere.  These are still pollutants returning to the atmosphere.

There are also issues with actually burning it in an IC engine as the flame front is far slower than the time available in current engine's 4 stroke cycle.

But, all this is probably uninteresting, since it doesn't feed reader's fears or lust for vilifying current political powers that be.

Oh well...

[seaweb11]

OK TT, good post,

but are you considering a stash of water and canned goods ?

[edbikerii]

Sorry, TT, but you are not dealing solely with ignorant, uninformed, fearful readers here.  I have made hydrogen gas in a lab using electrolysis, and I have ignited it, under controlled conditions.  The gas is invisible, odorless, and the most highly reactive substance known to man.  The only thing that makes it somewhat safer is that it is lighter than air so it won't accumulate in your basement, but it will happily fill your garage from the ceiling down if your garage is well insulated -- now a code requirement for most attached garages in order to prevent carbon monoxide infiltration into homes.

Oh, and yes, there are plenty of oxy/acetylene tanks that do explode every year.  Plenty of low-pressure LPG tanks too.  And there's a reason why building codes require those tiny low-pressure gas-grill tanks to be at least 25 feet from a structure.  There are also plenty of air tanks with much lower pressures that explode every year.  A few simple google searches will verify these facts.

I've also seen what was left of a large apartment building in the Bronx after a natural gas leak ignited.  It wasn't pretty.  The devastation was horrific.

Sorry, TT, you are good, but I suspect that even you are not a better engineer than the pride of pre-WWII Germany!!!  Don't you think those German engineers knew hydrogen was explosive?  Somehow, they thought they were making it safe, too.  Oh yeah, and the Space Shuttle Columbia with the giant pressurized liquid hydrogen fuel tank made some lovely fireworks too!  One simple o-ring failure blew that shuttle to bits in the blink of an eye.  Do you think the auto manufacturers of the world have better engineers than pre-WWII Germany and NASA, too?  Honda may be good, but they aren't THAT good.

Don't half the barbeques on the north American continent use bottled propane under pressure?  I seen fork lifts used this fuel supply, too?  Safety record seems pretty good.
Aren't the techniques for propane distribution similar if not the same as Hydrogen?  I wonder how many Oxy/acetylene tanks are there in the world that routinely DON'T blow up?

OK there is a difference in vessel storage pressure.  But, the Vessels are not new technology.  Designed vessels are capable of more than twice the planed storage pressure.  They are tested/checked before use and refill, have pressure relief valves to vent, should higher than filled pressures occur, precisely to prevent explosions.

As for the Hindenburg.  It burned due to causes other than Hydrogen (and it wasn't even being used as a fuel or in a liquid state).  But, then, so does the unused fuel in an jet or plane crash, auto crash, etc.  Do you then blame the fuel for the disaster?  Clearly, we could reduce the plane and car disasters if we just ban the fuel being used.
Can it be more inherently dangerous than your average Pinto?

I do not understand the pervasive phobia and negative hype about hydrogen as inherently dangerous.  It seems to fall under the umbrella of being fearful about the unknown and the folk lore of "old wives".

Certainly, there are problems to overcome to make many technologies useful.  For Hydrogen, I don't think storage is one of them.  Acceptance may be one of them, simply due to the stigma exploited by the uninformed or fearful.  You can try to make things foolproof.  But, there are some pretty smart fools out there.

There are certainly problems with hydrogen fueled cars.  One is that if it uses the air supply for combustion.  It removes oxygen from the atmosphere and fixes it into stable water.  While in the ideal case it doesn't pollute the air, we kinda need the oxygen in the air to sustain our human existence.  Photosynthesis can put it back, during the day, if there are enough surviving plants.

Another issue is the if an IC engine combusts the fuel with atmospheric oxygen, there is nitrogen that comes with it.  NOx byproducts are also produced from the (now) 76% nitrogen in the atmosphere.  These are still pollutants returning to the atmosphere.

There are also issues with actually burning it in an IC engine as the flame front is far slower than the time available in current engine's 4 stroke cycle.

But, all this is probably uninteresting, since it doesn't feed reader's fears or lust for vilifying current political powers that be.

Oh well...

[Gordon]

I've also seen what was left of a large apartment building in the Bronx after a natural gas leak ignited.  It wasn't pretty.  The devastation was horrific.

Sorry, TT, you are good, but I suspect that even you are not a better engineer than the pride of pre-WWII Germany!!!  Don't you think those German engineers knew hydrogen was explosive?  Somehow, they thought they were making it safe, too.  Oh yeah, and the Space Shuttle Columbia with the giant pressurized liquid hydrogen fuel tank made some lovely fireworks too!  One simple o-ring failure blew that shuttle to bits in the blink of an eye.  Do you think the auto manufacturers of the world have better engineers than pre-WWII Germany and NASA, too?  Honda may be good, but they aren't THAT good.

None of these examples has any bearing on the safety of a hydrogen tank in a car, but feel free to attempt to substantiate them with actual research or data.

[edbikerii]

An o-ring failure on a high pressure liquid hydrogen line causing an explosion has nothing to do with this?  Then I guess there's no point trying to substantiate this for you, Gordon.

I've also seen what was left of a large apartment building in the Bronx after a natural gas leak ignited.  It wasn't pretty.  The devastation was horrific.

Sorry, TT, you are good, but I suspect that even you are not a better engineer than the pride of pre-WWII Germany!!!  Don't you think those German engineers knew hydrogen was explosive?  Somehow, they thought they were making it safe, too.  Oh yeah, and the Space Shuttle Columbia with the giant pressurized liquid hydrogen fuel tank made some lovely fireworks too!  One simple o-ring failure blew that shuttle to bits in the blink of an eye.  Do you think the auto manufacturers of the world have better engineers than pre-WWII Germany and NASA, too?  Honda may be good, but they aren't THAT good.

None of these examples has any bearing on the safety of a hydrogen tank in a car, but feel free to attempt to substantiate them with actual research or data.