Topic: Synthetic versus non-synthetic oil

[crazypj]

removing lead from gas is a different issue but its actually a REALLY GOOD THING.
 Not from  an environmental standpoint, but because it led to real engine developments in cylinder head design (air flow, flame propagation) and material/metalurgy improvements. Most of which has benefited old bikes. (benefited me anyway, I can get more power with less radical mods than I was doing back in the 70's  )
 Low ZDDP does and has lead to increased camshaft wear, it big 'news' for V-8 brigade with flat tappet engines?
 I've used really cheap diesel oils in mos bikes since 1990, they actually benefited engine, kept it cleaner and zero cam wear.
 I don't know how many engines I either re-built or scrapped for people because of incorrect oil being used, first thing to go is hardening on cams, usually not too serious so engine seems to run fine. But, the bits get into oil pump. Then oil pressure starts dropping or oil light comes on a idle when hot. next thing, cam seizes in head.
Turn up at shop and 'Told you so'
 PJ
 PS, I believe in Flying Saucers, does that make me weirder than someone who was indoctrinated from an early age to believe in a fantasy being up in the sky? (Oh, thats what I believe  )

[TwoTired]

1.  Yea, most antique cars suffer from that.  But inserts came about long before the lead left the oil and gas.

That's because manufacturers were warned that lead was going to be absent from gas.  Warnings about ZDDP removal weren't made till something like the late 80s, I think.

2.  You don't think 30+year old machines are reaching that worn out time?  Most have low milage on their side, but I've had mine for 20 years and I intend to have it another 20.

Some yes, some no.

3.  You can't prove he does exist either.  You're arguing with the wrong guy on that point.

I believe I stated both side of that coin.

4.  Did you do a proper scientific test?  Cause that's what it would take for me.  Someone with a microscope and the knowledge of chemistry to say, positively that the moly had a detrimental affect on the fiber plates of your clutch.

Of course not.  Could have been coincidence that both clutch packs started slipping immediately after the introduction of moly, despite all the plates, frictions, and springs meeting dimension specs.    But, then you haven't offered a scientific test showing that moly doesn't cause clutches to slip either.  So, we are back to offered opinions, that have been hashed ad nauseum on repeated oil threads.  The oil companies are in the perfect position to reveal this exact testing.  But, they won't do it.  They'd rather have brand loyalty and hearsay be the determining factor for sales purposes.    But, they do offer advise!
http://www.shell.com/home/PlainPageServlet?FC=/rotella-en/html/iwgen/ask_our_expert/app_askourexpert_faq.html

5.  I do believe that the word "guess" denotes an opinion, so again, no argument here.  I've got my opinion, you've got your's.  Mine's based on experience.  And when something doesn't turn out like I think it should, I don't jump to a conclusion without some facts.  Like a scientist saying that moly killed my clutch.

Mine's based on experience and research.  There are certainly some clutch designs/fibers that can tolerate moly.  The Stock Cb550 is NOT one of them.  I certainly haven't tested them all.  Nor am I going to risk replacing other MC clutches, without the manufacturers expressed approval for moly use with their clutch. 
Heres are some more opinions with some fairly good reference material.
http://www.math.uwaterloo.ca/~rblander/oil_opinion.html
http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Oils1.html

[fixahonda]

Thanks for the links Two Tired. I just learned a whole lot that I probably should have known a long time ago.

As for what oil I use in the CB...
Hmm, nah not getting into that one.

I used to use Motul in the CBRs because it looked and smelled like some kind of liquid candy. I figured it must be good.

[333]

Those 2 links you provided are very interesting.  The title of the first one was hilarious.  Not in itself, but as it related to our discussion; "My Opinions about oil".  I almost peed!  In it, the author quotes a Honda bulletin on how synthetics can't be used in the early V-4 Hondas, which is what his site is dedicated to.  The bulletin that he doesn't have (and I've seen it myself, so this is not hearsay) is the one where Honda lists all the bikes a synthetic w/moly can be used.  Which includes virtually all of the bikes that this forum is dedicated to.

The second link was extremely informative.  I had no idea that there were cockroach bits in oil!  And I also was under the mistaken idea that oil came from dead dinosaurs.  Plant life!  Who knew?  But there was one paragraph where I spewed coffee(luckily I turned away from my computer);

"There are a few special problem areas for motorcycle oil. Most motorcycles have wet clutches, which means the motor oil runs through the clutch. If the motor oil has too much molybdenum in it, there are fears that the clutch can start slipping. No one I know has ever actually had this happen to them, but the warnings are all over your owners' manual and the oil companies' web pages."

I do love it when someone I'm debating with quotes an article that proves my argument.

[750K2]

"There are a few special problem areas for motorcycle oil. Most motorcycles have wet clutches, which means the motor oil runs through the clutch. If the motor oil has too much molybdenum in it, there are fears that the clutch can start slipping. No one I know has ever actually had this happen to them, but the warnings are all over your owners' manual and the oil companies' web pages."

I do love it when someone I'm debating with quotes an article that proves my argument."/quote]



no offense 333, but i'd take the warning labels of bike and oil manufacturers over this guy's circle of friends and acquaintances.  i wouldn't take his experience as proof of your argument.  and i do know that while oil companies do extensive lab work on their products they can't cover ever application.   but those lab rats have access to a lot more experimentation and analysis than your basic garage denzien.   just sayin'.

TT, i thought those were very informative and well researched links.  i do know a bit about oil and  i found those articles helped illuminate some of the special considerations involved with motorcycle lubrication.  thanks once again!
frank

[333]

No offense taken 750K2.  Nobody's calling anyone names.  This is yet another spirited debate among many on the slippery subject of oil.

But I think there is a flaw in your thinking.  Why would the any oil company spend money on research that only affects 3% of the population?  It seems more likely to me that some lawyer, thinking outside his area of expertise, thought it would be a good idea to cover their corporate butts, because he thought something COULD happen that they could get sued for.  And I would take one's personal experience over what some lawyer probably wrote.  In fact, the only thing that would carry more weight with me is true scientific research.

[crazypj]

One thing I have found in my 'research' on oil, its impossible to keep Molybdenum in suspension in any oil.
It coats metal parts(including steel clutch plates) but drops out of suspension when left to its own devices  .
 It was never in solution so its just particles floating around.
 Makes a nice grey layer in the sump. Keep it for high loaded areas when doing engine re-builds.

PJ

[750K2]

333 - ahhhh...two minds think alike... Liability.   i was going to make a short comment on that but had decided not to.  but since ya asked:

let's say that giganto chemical company come up with a new formula for WonderOil.  enviro regulations, pricing pressures, what have you.  having previous versions on the market, they have a performance benchmark to test to.  they know the target audience, i.e. automobiles and do the required testing in various engines and conditions and measure against the benchmark.  they do enough testing to provide strong mechanical and statisical analysis to withstand product liability judgements.  testing is expensive and time consuming but i'd venture to guess that they also run tests on things like lawnmowers, marine applications and the occasional motorcycle.  but not enough testing in the minor market areas to build a complete statistical baseline.  imagine all of the variables:  various composition of metals, plastics, heat, load, composite materials like clutch pads etc.  and now, within our 'assumed' testing basis, there is the analysis of the results...lo and behold, some of them thar clutch plates of material x, subcatagory r from suhonwaki motorcycle company seem a bit...chewed up.  hell, i'd slap a caution on that oil's label so fast the typewriter would catch on fire.  the market share may not justify the exposure of liability across a broad market of users with uncertain mechanical skills and unimaginable uses they put their machines through.  and i'm in business to make money, not pay it out in claims.

then we have our well-schooled and well-intentioned garage mechanic.  in the realm of product liability and insurance claims, his experience can at best be rated as anecdotal.  no statisical analysis, no engineering analysis, a limited number of examples and subjective deductive reasoning as to cause and effect.  he most likely is a whiz with motorcycles but his basis of experience pales in comparison with giganto chemical corp.   and if you go to giganto saying 'my mechanic said i could use this oil, even though the label says not to'...how much sympathy do you think you'll garner?    

so yeah, i think liability plays a huge part.
now having said that, and after reading some of these links and information, i'm going to be switching out my oil to something more suitable than my walmart special hd.   probably a synthetic as i've done lab work on that stuff back in the day and was kind of impressed.   and to be honest, up 'til now, i hadn't really given my choice of oil much thought.  but once again, thanks to you guys in the forum, dawn is breaking on a marble head.

[333]

But I seriously doubt that Giganto did any testing involving a transmission or a wet clutch.  At least not with motor oil.  If anything, they did some serious testing on their 80W and 90W gear oils.  Which is where we have gotten all the information we need to extrapolate the needs of our bikes.  And nowhere have I suggested using an oil that says on the label to not use it in a motorcycle.  What I have been trying to answer is the age old question of car vs motorcycle oil, and the original question of this thread.  In case you missed it, I have been using the Honda HP4 w/moly since 1986.

BTW, as for brand loyalty, I prefer Acme over Giganto for all my other engine needs.  I met their field test man once and marveled at his extreme methods.

[750K2]

333- well, we'll probably never know what tests Giganto did run.  maybe they didn't run any on wet clutch motorcycles and their faithful sales weasels did their duty and sold WonderGunk to anyone they could.  and when the faithful sales weasels started getting calls about clutch problems (or whatever), and the customer was big enough and screamed long enough, then perhaps some of the #$%* started flowing back uphill to the lawyers and beancounters at Giganto.  Perhaps some engines were replaced to mollify the upset customers.  perhaps WonderGunk cost Giganto some money in a market sector they previously had done ok in.  who da f* knows?  all scenarios are possible and someplace, somehow, WonderGunk got blamed for some mechanical failures and Giganto tossed a blanket caveat on the label of WonderGunk to cover their asses. 

I think you're right.  there's a boatload of liability and lawyers driving these recommendations.  but i also think that armies of faithful sales weasels are pushed to increase market share and make some money.  if they could sell WonderGunk to eskimos and cannibals, they'd do it...provided it could make the company money.  somewhere, somehow, i'd bet that WonderGunk burnt out a clutch, or two, or fifty of some composite material from an obscure supplier.  and Giganto came to work the next morning and said 'screw these wet clutch bastards...let 'em use rotella'

oh and 333...good luck with that Acme...everyone knows it's CRAP!!

[333]

You haven't considered the idiot factor.  Who's to say the Wondergunk killed the clutch?  Or was it the owner who doesn't know there is supposed to be some slack in the clutch cable?

[750K2]

333 - good question! who's to say after all.   ever have a supplier product problem in your line of work?  faithful sales weasel comes in to a business and says this new and improved WonderGunkTwo is the best thing since sliced bread.  business slave buys it because he's always used WonderGunkOne and done ok.  WG2 does ok but ya know, there's some issues in certain applications.  talks to faithful sales weasel and FSW says "gee, we've never heard of that before"  (standard FSW answer when a product problem arises..trust me on that one. ) soon FSW is hearing more and more issues with WG2.  big deal...he puts them off and makes his monthly quota.  then FSW has some VERY pissed off customers and starts losing business to Acme.  Food off the table is a good motivator for our FSW's.  FSW starts making nice to BusinessSlave.  offers discounts..no dice..FSW is over a barrel...has to come up with a solution that may or may not take money out of his pocket and Giganto's as well.  As that continues to happen, Giganto and the army of FSW's modify thier sales pitch.  it becomes:  "we really don't recommend WG2 for that specific application".

so i'd say that information flows in both directions, up and down the distribution chain.  anecdotal evidence combined with a loss of profit stirs Giganto to do a little testing, perhaps a study if they don't already have market/engineering data.  maybe some very p.o.'d customers who sold hundreds of bikes each year went over to Acme oils because their garage mechanics were fixing more clutches filled with WG2 than they ever did before with WG1. Maybe Giganto even pissed off the one of the three major japanese bike companies.  who  knows.   

i do know that i'll be taking the automotive oil out of my crankcase. 

[333]

If I have helped one person to convert, I am a happy camper.

[hymodyne]

You haven't considered the idiot factor.  Who's to say the Wondergunk killed the clutch?  Or was it the owner who doesn't know there is supposed to be some slack in the clutch cable?

...There's supposed to be slack in the clutch cable??
 

[333]

 

[BobbyR]

I would say this is a circular thread in which there will be no consensus.

[crazypj]

The Japanese (JASO, forget the actual numbers) oil standard is for wet clutch motorcycle, I think they probably did a little bit of oil testing
PJ

[jbailey]

I have a 1975 550K which has been on Rotella T synthetic for about 4 or 5 years.

Whatever you do, don't bother reading the oil FAQ on this board.  It is a joke.  The "information" is not only way outdated, but blatently wrong.

If you use an oil that meets JASO standards it will work fine.  It doesn't matter whether it is regular or synthetic, both will work equally well, but synthetic does have advantages.  It is your decision if you want to spend the extra money for synthetic.

JASO certification is a funny thing.  Amsoil is not JASO certified, but does meet JASO standards.  They advertise it as such.  Rotella T's new formulas also now meet JASO standards, but Shell does not choose to advertise it as such.  If you check the Rotella forums you will find this is now the case.  Of course you can always buy a JASO certified oil, but you will find that they are 2 or 3 times as expensive as conventional oil.  Car oils do not even come close to meeting JASO standards, so don't even think about using them.

Oil damage is a long term result.  Your engine will run fine.  When you find out that there is damage it will be too late.  Use a good oil and save money in the long term, unless you plan on not keeping your bike.

[750K2]

well i dunno about  the other oil threads but i found this one to be particuarly useful due to TT's and 333's posts.  i honestly didn't give much thought the various conditions the oil has to support and have used the oil my owner's manual suggested.  things change in 36 years.  thanks again for all the good information guys! keep it comin'.

[jmckinne]

1) I have classic cars too, and mine have pre-unleaded heads. I carry a bottle of CD2 lead additive in the trunk of each and add it when filling up. With the amount my classics are driven I have no idea whether that is really necessary. There is debate in classic car circles on that question - how much do you have to drive on unleaded before you hurt your valve seats. I think it's become a topic now because it's getting harder to find lead additive. Is removing lead from gas and oil a good thing? I'll take their word for it I guess. It's not to much hassle to add for me. I'm glad someone a few posts up told me why my '73 bike valve seats don't need it tho. I had no idea before then and sometimes it worried me

2) When you guys talk about using Rotella T where are you getting it? I only see it in auto parts stores and it never mentions MC compatibility. The bike shops around me never have it. Are you Rotella guys running the regular auto shop stuff? I'm talking about the synthetic here.

See this thread isn't useless - at least for me. Plus there was the inevitable fight too. Pop some corn and plop down on the couch whenever an oil thread starts - the show's about to begin.

[BobbyR]

JASO has a test for motorcycle clutches. It goes like this:
A 4T-MA oil is designed to not induce clutch slippage even under high torque/load conditions. To determine whether or not a candidate (candidate for approval) oil meets those "MA" specs, it is submitted to a friction test on an SAE #2 machine that spins a clutch @ 3600 rpm in a candidate oil. The clutch is cycled 1000 times. Friction coefficient,torque and stop time( the time for the clutch to lock up) are then measured @ 500 and 1000 cycles.
Based on the results, indices for dynamic friction (friction between clutch parts moving in relation to each other), static friction (no relative movement), and stop time are calculated and compared to those of 2 referrence oils, one high friction (A) and one lower friction (B).
If any candidate oils' indices fall short of the required level for MA certification,then that oil is "MB". HOWEVER, THE OIL WILL QUALIFY AS AN "MA" OIL IF ALL IT'S FRICTION INDICES ARE "MA" REGARDLESS OF THE PRESENCE OF FRICTION MODIFIERS.

[BobbyR]

Here is what is in ROTELLA T

 

[Blueridgerunner]

To those who have read this before, I apologize. But, I couldn't resist 
Beware of synthetic oil, it can do terrible things to you and your beloved motorcycle. It will not only leak out of your engine faster than you can put it in, but it will also cause your oil filter to clog and implode, dumping debris and dirt into your lubrication system. It also will make every part of your bike permanently slippery because of its linear molecular chain dispersion action.
Then it will leak onto your kickstand causing it to retract automatically, dropping your bike on the ground! But that's not all...
Synthetic oil will round off your gears and spin your bearings. It will also splatter onto your seat causing your girlfriend to fall off in the apex of a turn and she'll never ride with you again. Synthetic oil coats your sight window and your timing window with a whitish
pro-emulsification additive that is both non-removable and highly corrosive. Synthetic oil will completely leak onto the ground overnight and your dog will drink it and die.
Synthetic oil will wear out your tires and make your battery leak. It will give you the desperate need to urinate after you put your full leathers on and then jam your zippers shut. It will contaminate your gasoline causing your bike to stall on railroad tracks and accelerate uncontrollably near police cars. It will make it rain during rallies and on weekends. It will lubricate your timing belts causing them to jump teeth and break your valves to bits. Synthetic oil chemically weakens desmodromic valves and causes the clearances to change every six miles. Then it melts the black soles of your riding boots right before you walk across your new carpeting.
While riding past groups of attractive women it will cause both of your handlebar grips to slip off at the same time so you smash your windscreen with the bridge of your nose. It also causes your swingarm to crack, your studs to break, and your rotors to warp, and then it voids your warranty by changing your odometer reading to 55,555. It
also dries out your wetclutch and wets your dryclutch. It makes your clutch slave cylinder seal fail in the heaviest traffic on the hottest day of the year while putting an angry wasp in your helmet for good measure.
Synthetic oil hides your 13mm socket and puts superglue on your earplugs. Synthetic oil will scratch your faceshield and make your gloves shrink two sizes night before trackday. Synthetic oil stole your neutral and sold it to the Chinese for $1.25. Synthetic oil will make you grow a tail. Synthetic oil will write long crazy e-mails to your Internet friends and then sign your name at the bottom!

[joecool14u2]

I'm oil stupid, don't mind changing it frequently, please someone post what is it about rottella t that makes it good to use, is it because it design for diesel engines? i been changing oil with walmart cheap car stuff like every 2000 miles or less, is this going to be ok? i always thought just change it before it breaks down and stops working, i didn't know they put stuff other than oil in the bottle to tear up your #$%*!

[333]

, i didn't know they put stuff other than oil in the bottle to tear up your #$%*!

It's not that they put stuff in to do that.   The additives they put in are used to prevent some of the wear and act as barriers for metal to metal contact.  Stuff that car oils don't have.  As well as an ability to go through your transmission.