Topic: Synthetic versus non-synthetic oil

[Blueridgerunner]

I have been using Rotella T non-synthetic in my bike. Stay away from automotive oils that have the energy saving label on it as it contains stuff not good for motorcycle wet clutches.

[jbailey]

2) When you guys talk about using Rotella T where are you getting it? I only see it in auto parts stores and it never mentions MC compatibility.

Most Walmarts carry it in quart and gallon jugs.

As far as motorcycle compatibility goes, it doesn't say it on the jug, but Shell has a forum for Rotella users and it has a motorcycle section.  You can find it here:  http://www.shellusserver.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php

You can also read MORE than anyone wants to know about oil here:  http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/  Here is their motorcycle oil forum:  http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=9&page=1

[Pawsoff]

I just got some parts today and picked up some Rotella 15W 40, 4 liters for $11

I also saw the sythetic 0W 40 ?? (does that make sense?) going for $29 for 4 liters

Question, the old (5+years) oil in the bike, should I run that for a bit before I add new oil and filter?
Or should I add the new stuff and just accept I will have to change it relatively quickly do to the bike sitting for so long?

[333]

I would run some crankcase flush in with the old oil, get it running well, and before you take it out on the road, change the oil then.

[joecool14u2]

ok, nobody really had any input as to why i should run rotella in my bike, i went to walmart, they sell motorcycle oil and its says jaso approved and ok for wet clutches and transmissions, but at $8.89 a quart they can keep it, the rotella was 2.88 quart but the label does not say jaso approved, but what it does say is a whole list of approvals that the walmart brand also had on it, walmart brand is $1.74 quart, I have put 9000 miles on my bike with this walmart brand, ride two up always, and have no clutch slippage, so far, but i change it before or as soon as it gets dark, or if i think it leaked gas in it, or if i go by walmart, just because i can change the oil cheap, it cost less than $6.00, i change the filter every other time, so far i changed the oil probably 6 times, and inside engine is clean, i hope i am not damaging the engine slowly, but i feel safer changing the oil frequently and keeping it clean, instead of having some expensive stuff that i would want to drain and save it to reuse or something, i mean for $6 i can change my oil 5 times instead of the one time for $30, by time i spend $30 a oil change, 6 times, thats $180, damn i could have saved a $150 of that and bought a new cam come engine rebuild time, i agree its better not to have to rebuild but i will have to due to the fact i ride a lot, i change the oil a lot, i have to sacrifice something somewhere, i run high test gas, low test oil, but only -2000miles at a time , so maybe when i get to 100,000 miles it'll be time for a rebuild, right now i'm at 23,500, i ride slow and easy and steady, tuned to the best of my ability

[Spikeybike]

my only 2 cents to add about oil is that, this season is the first time i've tried 20w50, and i had more "false neutrals" then i care to even attempt to count, switched back to 10-40, they cut in half(damn near the same day)
   i assume it will take a few oil changes to get it all out,


ok i'm off the soap box

[eldar]

20-50 is only usefull in really hot weather. Otherwise I feel it is too thick to flow properly.

joe, the rotella is a diesel oil. It has more detergents and has a lot in common with motorcycle oils, just a lot cheaper.
Rotella has a LOT of users that ride. You can try the cheaper 15-40, it works pretty good. I used it for a while then went to the 5-40 synthetic and it has worked GREAT. I now put it in my wifes little rebel and the engine in that thing got much smoother and quieter.

The walmart oil is probably ok as long as it is 10-40 but generally comes from cheaper oil stock and does not have the detergents. Your willingness to change often will for the most part offset this though, but you will go through more oil than neccesary.

[joecool14u2]

thank you for your reply, i feel safe with what i am doing, i can afford the oil changes but not at $30 a change, this coming weekend i might go with the rotella at $2.88 a quart which is not near as bad as $9 a quart for motorcycle oil, what is this about the detergents in the oil, as i understand it in the seventies car oil had very little detergents in it and at walmart they sell a oil that says it is specifically for engines older than 1988, it has very little detergents, so is this saying that new oil has more of the detergents the mc oil  is claiming to have, like i said, i run 9000 miles this summer on walmart 10-40w back when it was cool, march thru may, then 20-50w june- july, i have no complaints, yesterday i rode 200 miles with girlfriend on back and got 43.5 miles to gallon, but of course this is with a big bag on luggage rack, cyclear windshield,  120/90/18 rear tire(?two sizes too big?) running straight pipes, champion plugs(RA8HC) and 115 main jets, uni-foam filter pods, so i think this is good, right, for a 1976 cb550   my picture here http://www.cmsnl.com/community/vehicles/Honda/CB550_K/1976/2553.html

[eldar]

Well my oil is about 15 for 4 quarts. So a little under 4 a quart. That is for the synth rotella.
One thing with thicker oil is it takes more to pump and so will reduce power and mpg a little but probably not noticable.

[333]

thank you for your reply, i feel safe with what i am doing, i can afford the oil changes but not at $30 a change, this coming weekend i might go with the rotella at $2.88 a quart which is not near as bad as $9 a quart for motorcycle oil, what is this about the detergents in the oil, as i understand it in the seventies car oil had very little detergents in it and at walmart they sell a oil that says it is specifically for engines older than 1988, it has very little detergents, so is this saying that new oil has more of the detergents the mc oil  is claiming to have, like i said, i run 9000 miles this summer on walmart 10-40w back when it was cool, march thru may, then 20-50w june- july, i have no complaints, yesterday i rode 200 miles with girlfriend on back and got 43.5 miles to gallon, but of course this is with a big bag on luggage rack, cyclear windshield,  120/90/18 rear tire(?two sizes too big?) running straight pipes, champion plugs(RA8HC) and 115 main jets, uni-foam filter pods, so i think this is good, right, for a 1976 cb550   my picture here http://www.cmsnl.com/community/vehicles/Honda/CB550_K/1976/2553.html

Okay, a couple of things.  1. If you are staying with the Walmart oil, don't go more than 1000 miles between changes.  Your transmission is KILLING your oil.  2. get rid of the Champion plugs.  NGKs work so much better.  3. get some earplugs or get some mufflers.  It is not fun to not be able to hear what people are saying at parties and restaurants.  I am speaking from personal experience here.  4. If you must have a "larger" tire, stick with one size larger.  With the tire you have now, you actually have less rubber in contact with the ground because of the curvature of motorcycle tires.

Sorry about the rant.  Sometimes I can't help myself.

Now a question.  Isn't the 115 main jet size stock?  I find it hard to believe that pods and straight pipes use the stock jetting.

[TwoTired]

Okay, a couple of things.  1. If you are staying with the Walmart oil, don't go more than 1000 miles between changes.  Your transmission is KILLING your oil.  2. get rid of the Champion plugs.  NGKs work so much better.  3. get some earplugs or get some mufflers.  It is not fun to not be able to hear what people are saying at parties and restaurants.  I am speaking from personal experience here.  4. If you must have a "larger" tire, stick with one size larger.  With the tire you have now, you actually have less rubber in contact with the ground because of the curvature of motorcycle tires.

Sorry about the rant.  Sometimes I can't help myself.

Now a question.  Isn't the 115 main jet size stock?  I find it hard to believe that pods and straight pipes use the stock jetting.

I agree with all the above.  Except, the stock main jet for the 76 Cb550 is #100.  If anything 115 is too big, IMHO.

Also, it's not just the hearing loss you'll encounter earlier in life, look up Tinnitus, and discover how debilitating an affliction it can be.  You may enjoy the pipe's sound now, but and you or you're GF will rue the day sometime in the future.

Cheers,

(P.S. I can't help myself, either.)

[joecool14u2]

ok 333, the main jet on the cb550 that come with the rebuild kit was 100, i hand drilled the old ones to  115, i did the straight pipes and air pods to accomodate two-up better, and yes the tire is too big, but i only got 4000 miles from the $50 ching chin 3.75-18, the guy offered to get the continental sport touring tire at $70(list for $125), the size was the smallest they offered, it shows hardly any wear after 2000 miles, i agree on the ear plugs, i rather have the four into one exhaust, i found one for $299 somewhere on the net, but i currently cant afford that, i been in construction all my life and right now the economy sucks for me, i am already deaf, at least partly so i know what you mean there, is it safe to ride with ear plugs, i have not tried that yet? but back to the oil, so the tranny is killing it you think in 1000miles, what with the rotella, can i leave it in for at least 2k? this oil i can afford, and do you suggest ordering the oil filters JCWhittney offers for $2.99, i think i can order five of them at a time, that twill last for a while, i need to run this bike for at least 3 years, will probably put 25k a year on it, its at 24k now so i need it to last for 100k, so yes i am open to any help at all to what i need to do and not need to do, i dont mind taken it apart either to put rings and cam chain in, main chain, bearings, i just don't know when i need to do this, i was hoping to go to 50k then do a simple build replacing the internal chains and bearings, small over bore with .25 rings and pistons, this would be end of next summer i hope, plenty of time to purchase the parts

[joecool14u2]

help with the exhaust? for the mean time till i can afford the new exhaust, is ther a way to quieten it down,  the pipes are 4-4, the #1 is rusted into at bottom the weld where muffler starts, the rear of all four where rusted and baffles bouncing around inside, i cut right where they start to taper back down(right in front of axle), i will post pictures if this will help, so they are complete except where the rear taper and no baffles inside, i stuffed them one time with wire screen, this quietened it down a lot, but i was afraid it was to much back pressure(lots of carbon build-up on screen) can i put new baffles in, i know i can probably patch the hole in #1 where the weld is, just how to replace baffles, i found slip-on mufflers for $25 a piece its just i doubt they will work well or quieten it down much(jcwhittney) they look like the no baffle type, the straight thru with fiberglass for sound damping? will these be ok? or would it be easier to weld the manifolds together so i could use one muffler such as a cherry bomb, just leaving in the fiberglass, or some type single exhaust with baffles, i really like the idea on the 4-1, wish i had the money, i can weld and have the basic skills to weld my headers into one but am afraid the pipes are going to be rusted from inside out

[jmckinne]

Well I decided to do a little oil study of my own after reading all this. I really don't have a dog in this fight so I decided to just run an observation period and note what I saw.

My background: I went to school to be an aerospace engineer and ended up in the computer field as a software engineer. That's probably a whole other study tho It does give me a reasonably methodical outlook, and a healthy respect for observed effects rather than just theory. I'm a reasonably experienced amateur mechanic who has restored several cars, bikes, snowmobiles, boats, and airplanes. I am not Mr. Goodwrench by any stretch.

I just wrote down my observations about how the bike acted/sounded with various oils. This is no more scientific than that - I recorded my observations of oil performance in a CB750 K4. Take it for what it's worth. I always take notes on how my classics are acting in general, so the parts that are particular to recording oil performance alone are just the last 2-3 changes. I did not know I would be looking at oil closely until the last 3 weeks.

My bike's background:
It came to me after 15 years of sitting on it's center stand. It had some mystery oil of unknown age in it. I changed it immediately for some Kaw 10-40 dino just to get it home.

1) My first real oil for it (1 week later) was Kaw 20-50 dino. Why do I keep using Kawasaki oil? Because my nearest LMS is a Kawasaki dealer I went with 20-50 because I'm used to running classics and it's generally thot that bumping up the weight isn't a bad idea as seals etc age. That oil was fine, no leaks etc.

2) I decided to change again after about 2 weeks. I had been running Sea Foam, Marvel, etc to clear out any crap from the long storage. Again, I went with Kaw 20w-50 but this time synthetic. I mostly wanted to get a brand new filter on, as I hoped the Foam etc had loosened some crap.

At this point I begin looking for other things from my oil besides just being clean. Those are:

a) No leaks. The age old enemy of all classic vehicles.
b) Quietness of valvetrain and gearbox.
c) Shift ease.
d) Neutral hunting.

During the previous period I had been wrenching all over the bike just to get it running so everything was changing and any observations on oil qualities would have been meaningless.

I ran that 20w-50 synth all the rest of last season and was content. Going into this season tho 2 things caused me to hunt for a new oil: leaks started and neutral hunting. By neutral hunting I mean that after a long ride when I would go to put the bike in neutral I would have to hunt for it a bit. The detent up from 1st would be hard to pull thru and coming down from 2nd would be to easy. So I'd end up "fiddling" with my foot for a few seconds and it really annoyed me. Also the engineer in me said that heat was effecting the gearbox parts enough to make them "picky". Less heat would then equal less snippy-ness I thot. Also I began to blame the leaking on the age old rumor of synthetic molecules being "extra small" and going thru seals dino wouldn't.

3) So I decided to use what the manual actually called for and go with good old Honda 10w-40, although I used synth. What I got was more gearbox noise and no decrease in hunting or leaks - in fact more leaks now from the right as well as left side of bike.

I've been reading oil threads/fights on this forum in the meantime and thinking of recording oil specific obs.

4) "Yikes it's the synth!" says I. I switch it out for Honda 20w-50 dino. more gear noise, more hunting, slower leaks. The slow down in leaks was not dramatic tho, and IMHO totally related to the thicker oil. I'm pissed: "I've hosed my seals" groans I, while ordering a $100 gasket and seal kit.

At this point I begin looking for good old mechanical instead of chemical solutions to the leak problem and I find them - by perusing some other threads here and poking my nose around the bike. The stupid chain oiler has been causing all the leaks on the left side. I turn it completely off. The really big leak on the right side is even dumber: the oil tank drain plug seal. The big washer on that has some big scratches on it and it is letting oil pass. A new washer and the addition of a soft washer stops that cold.

The bike stays dry for a week while the gasket kit collects dust in my house. As a long time classic owner I am just totally averse to breaking any old seal or gasket that is holding fluid back (they're too rare and precious), so I will simply NOT use any of the new gasket kit until some new leak happens. The bike is dry to this day.

5) All this talk of Rotella was interesting and wanting to give my new seal fixes the ultimate challenge I decided to go with the really light Rotella T synth: 5w-40. A week later I still have no leaks and I'm a bit surprised. My neutral hunting is much better and my gear noise and valve train is slightly better too. I would not have expected all those things to get better with the lighter oil.

For all my target goals the Rotella T is the best oil I have found in my bike. I'm excluding leaks from my goals here, because I found purely mechanical fixes for them. I did not expect the lighter oil to quiet the bike but it has. Shifting effort in general and neutral finding in particular are much better.

I have always believed that synthetics are better oils. The question is a bit more complicated for classic owners tho. I do believe that synthetics react differently with antique seals and clearances. If the classic in question will hold the synthetic without leaks, and if it doesn't burn it by passing the rings etc, then I say run it and feel good about it.

I am a bit concerned by the Rotella's mighty light 5 weight tho. If I was still in Florida I wouldn't run that but Minnesota is so much cooler I'm going to give it a shot. I'd prefer a 10W-40 synth tho. Shell only offers that in dino in stores near me.

So that's what I saw, for what it's worth.

 

[crazypj]

I'm running Rotella 5w/40 full synthetic in Florida without problems.
Most bikes (most engines) are pumping too much oil so the pressure relief valve is constantly open at relatively low rpm.
 thinner oil means its easier to pump and if some 'leaks' around trochoidal rotor, its doesn't seem to matter.
 I worry about breaking an oil cooler with thick oil and cold engine
The only thing I found using 20w/50 is the oil pressure switches would burst as pressure is way too high when oil is cold, you have to be very careful warming up,
 I used to keep bike below 1,500 rpm until crankcase was hot (unless I was late for work  )
 had 4 switches blow in 7 months
PJ

[jmckinne]

pj-

Wow, good to know about the 5w-40 in heat. Have you run it thru a central or sourth FL summer yet?

[333]

Interesting study, Jmckinne.  I don't necessarily follow the idea that oil seals deteriorate faster when synthetics are used.  Oil seals don't last forever.  And we are talking 30+ year old machines.  I've seen oil seals fail with no synthetics involved. 

[jmckinne]

333-

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that synthetics degrade antique seals, but that I believe the condition of antique seals may not be good enough to hold back a thinner and "slippery-er" oil. That may be due to age or looser design tolerances.

I have absolutely no data to back that up. It's just something you commonly hear and to me it has the ring of potential truth: "truth-y-ness" as Colbert puts it

[eldar]

I wonder if it does not have more to do with the possible fact that conven oil leaves deposits which inadvertantely assist the seals in that they seem to not leak. Synth oil removes these thus making the seal do its own work.

[333]

333-

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that synthetics degrade antique seals, but that I believe the condition of antique seals may not be good enough to hold back a thinner and "slippery-er" oil. That may be due to age or looser design tolerances.

I have absolutely no data to back that up. It's just something you commonly hear and to me it has the ring of potential truth: "truth-y-ness" as Colbert puts it

I was just saying that this theory always seems to appear when synthetics are discussed, not that you were proclaiming that.

I wonder if it does not have more to do with the possible fact that conven oil leaves deposits which inadvertantely assist the seals in that they seem to not leak. Synth oil removes these thus making the seal do its own work.

I think it's more of a case of as the seal gets older, minute cracks form in the seal.  Dirt and stuff fill the cracks.  Then an oil change happens.  If a high detergent oil is used, that dirt can become dislodged and a leak starts.  Or maybe the crack gets larger and the leak starts.  But when all this happens after a change to synthetic, it's easy to blame the synthetic.

[eldar]

Either way, it is not the oils fault. Seals do wear out and need to be changed.

[Buber]

I think it's more of a case of as the seal gets older, minute cracks form in the seal.  Dirt and stuff fill the cracks.  Then an oil change happens.  If a high detergent oil is used, that dirt can become dislodged and a leak starts. .....

Actually I think this is a porky. I mean, all modern oils, mineral or not, have cleaning agents in them. Of course, if you would take an engine running on an oil used 30 yrs ago, and switched it to modern synth, then maybe. But in reality this nearly never happes, i.e. usually they stay in the shed only couple of years.

I personally think that this way of thinking is flawed and it's not correct. But it's a personal opinion only..

[goon 1492]

Here ya go my peoples    a direct quote from here :

http://bestsyntheticoil.com/dealers/amsoil/seals.shtml


I would be a liar if I told you that switching over to synthetics could not possibly cause leaks around seals and gaskets. However, anyone who gives you the impression that this is the most likely outcome is either misinformed or lying themselves. Here is the whole story in easy to understand terms.

Back in the 70's and early 80's some synthetics were not blended correctly and caused engine oil leakage in some vehicles. Basically, the problem is that synthetic basestocks do not react the same way with seals and gaskets that petroleum oils do. PAO basestocks (the most common synthetic basestocks) tend to cause seal shrinkage. If the proper additives are not used, seals will shrink when using a PAO based oil, and leakage will occur.

Fortunately, oil manufacturers learned their lesson and reformulated their oil to contain the proper additive package which helps condition seals and gaskets to maintain their flexibility while also maintaining proper seal swell. In fact, the reformulation in most cases provides for better seal conditioning than most petroleum oils these days. Nevertheless, there is still a possibility of leakage if making the switch to synthetic - but only under certain conditions. Please allow me to elaborate a little bit.

Any of you who are considering a switch to synthetic oils probably know by now that petroleum oils do not necessarily keep your engine squeaky clean. Well, if you own an older vehicle (late 80's to very early 90's) it's possible that you have leaks in your engine already. Now, before you all string me up by my toe nails telling me there's never been a drop of oil that leaked from your engine, let me explain myself.

On older vehicles which have been lubricated with petroleum oils, seals and gaskets can begin to dry and crack. The reason you don't actually see leaks is because petroleum oils tend to burn off and leave sludge, grime and varnish on the inside of your engine. That's simply the nature of a petroleum oil's make-up. Now, conventional petroleum oils are not very discriminatory about where they leave those deposits. Therefore, some of the deposits end up around your seals and gaskets which actually plugs up the gaps which would have resulted in oil leaks.

"Well," you say, "I guess all of those synthetic oil nay-sayers were right. If petroleum oils keep my engine from leaking and synthetic oils might actually make it leak, I guess petroleum is the better oil."

Not even close. The fact is, it's a result of using petroleum oil instead of a high quality synthetic that resulted in dry and cracking seals & gaskets in the first place. As I mentioned earlier, synthetic oils now contain special additives which maintain proper seal swell and keep them flexible so that seals and gaskets don't dry and crack in the first place. So, for those people who use synthetic oils from the start (after a 3,000 to 5,000 mile break-in period), the problem never becomes an issue.

Of course, the next obvious question is, "If synthetics have those special additives, why might they cause leaks in an older engine? Why don't they correct the problem?"

Believe it or not, I've got an answer for that too. The "problem" is that there are also other additives that give a synthetic oil its detergency properties. In other words, there's other stuff in high quality synthetic oil which tends to clean out the sludge and deposits left behind by petroleum oils. Once these deposits are gone, the gaps around seals and gaskets become exposed and the oil might begin to leak in these areas.

However, there is good news. It's likely that the additives we discussed earlier will begin to lubricate the seals causing them to become more flexible and leading to seal swell which may plug those gaps over time. The only drawback is that there's no way of knowing how long it may take for this to occur or if the seals are already too far gone to be salvaged. If the problem doesn't correct itself, it is likely that the seals and gaskets would have to be replaced to prevent further oil leakage.

So, to wrap up. Petroleum oils can screw up your seals and gaskets and then fill the holes with gunk and deposits to cover their tracks. Synthetic oils come in and begin to clean up the place. Once it's clean, the holes might be exposed (if there were any) and the oil begins to leak. After a while (no way to know how long) the synthetic may be able to help the seals and gaskets regain their composure and stop the leaks

One very important point to keep in mind is that if 100 cars were put in front of you (all older vehicles lubricated with petroleum oil), the switch to synthetic would probably cause less than five or 10 of them to leak. The odds are definitely in your favor.

As is the case with most things, you tend to hear much more about the horror stories than you do about the success stories. I have spoken with numerous people who have made the switch successfully without ever having a leak. In fact, I personally have converted two older vehicles without even a hint of a problem.

Unfortunately, those who have had problems start screaming and yelling to everyone they know (with the best intentions) that synthetics will screw up your engine. Just take it with a grain of salt and you and your car will be fine.

NOTE: If you have a newer vehicle that has very few miles on it (say newer than 94 and fewer than 50,000 miles on it) and it begins to leak after switching from petroleum to synthetic oil, there may have been a manufacturer defect. Unless the manufacturer or dealer can prove that the synthetic oil caused the leakage, they are required, by law, to repair the vehicle under warranty (if you are still under warranty).

[goon 1492]

And haveing read all that, I had to let my eyes rest a minute and then said to myself maybe i should try the synthetic; I just am scared poopless that it will start seepage of my gaskets because they don't leak a drop anywhere on the bike right now and i don't want them to start soon.

[eldar]

I KNEW it! I was right about the seals getting gooped up!

Goon, change close to the end of the riding season. If leaks start, then you have the winter to tear down when you cant ride anyways.