Topic: My bike RUNS! But it needs some work, running on two cylinders I think :(

[Dave-and-his-550]

I got my bike started, it fired up right away and I got it idling in seconds. Carbs are in good shape now! Anyway I can describe how things played out in order as this:

I let it idle and warm up.
I put it into first and it died.
I increased the idle to 1500 RPM
I put it into first and it stayed.
I began to ride off and noticed it did not have much power.
I was in first gear trying to make it up a 15 degree incline and it barely made it 
I took it home and checked the pipes. Number 1 and 2 were really hot. 3 and 4 were not nearly as hot (I could keep my hand on it, whereas 1 and 2, I had to just tap very quick)

I checked the plugs of 1 and 4. And they look like this:

#1


#4


Definitely Carbon fouling. This is the first time I ran the bike in over a year and a half.

Next Up:
I checked the camshaft gap, and noticed the left side camshaft is really out of alignment. (I think I'm using the correct terminology) Anyway, here is a photo:



So is this really bad news? All the other ones were nice and centered. So I think I'll be needing a valve adjustment, need to check engine compression, and maybe a cam chain adjustment? I broke the cover as I was trying to get it off with an impact driver


So let me guess, JBWeld should fix this right up?

Also:
I notice there seems to be a rocking noise when I had the bike idling at 500rpm, is that to low to idle? When I increased the idle, the rocking noise went away. It sounded like it was coming from the right side crankcase cover area.

I'm going to replace all the plugs now. I'll be running it during the summer and probably at higher rpm's, so what plug should I get for a 76 550F? I'm looking at the Clymers manual, but I'd rather take the advice from a community devoted to these CB's. 

Oh ya, and I checked the breaker points gap. It states in the manual they should be anywhere from .012 to .018. I checked TF1.4 and I couldn't get the .010 gauge in without pushing a little. TF3.2 was just the same. Here are some pics:

This is taken on TF1.4



Should the 2.3 gap be completely closed? Or just touching? Because you can see, there is somewhat of a gap on it anyway.

This is how my points look:



Probably could be sanded a bit and cleaned?

And finally, a picture of my bike

[Klark Kent]

a complete tune up is in order- point gap (and yes yours look like they need to be dressed) timing, valve gap, carb sync.  The plugs could be the problem- i think the carbon deposit acts as a conductor and dissipates the spark- but you won't know until you eliminate all the other variables.  500rpm is too low.  the clunking is your clutch and will always be there but will get much better when you sync the carbs.  the rocker shaft slot deformity is characteristic of the early 550 engines and replacing the head with a later model is the only real cure- check out this thread.

good luck

[gold72]

the 550 takes a ngk d7ea plug

good luck

[Dave-and-his-550]

My bike had NGK D7ES plugs, and when I went to Oreily's they didn't find a stock number for D7EA, but they had D7ES. Also, I was looking through a NGK catalog, and it showed 75-77 550F using the D7ES plugs. I guess they are the same?

[gold72]

D7ES and D7EA are the same

[Dave-and-his-550]

I installed the new plugs, and tried to start it up, and it just turned over, but didn't fire. I felt for certain the bike would fire right up with new plugs but it didn't...I'm thinking my battery is not providing enough amps, or maybe the bike just liked the old plugs

I do have one question, what is the plug reach suppose to be? It says thats important in the Clymer manual, and the reach of the new plugs is a little longer then the old ones. I guess this could be the problem?

[Dave-and-his-550]

Just a quick update:

I checked the cam gap on each cylinder and #1 and 2 were the only ones that seemed a bit off. I'm surprised how small of an amount they are suppose to be set at, and how it can make a difference if they are off a bit...

Anyway,I got them all adjusted and began my compression check. First cylinder read 95 PSI from cranking it via kick starter. I'm gonna go out and do the other three now.

Again, what is the standard spark plug reach suppose to be? I'd like to know before I put em in after the compression check.

[strangedaze39]

Clean those points with a point file. Or 400 grit. If the pits are large just forget cleaning them and buy a new set. These are the right points and condensers and only $21, Z1 is an awesome online shop to. http://www.z1enterprises.com/detail.aspx?ID=1348

If the aren't any pits or very small pits just sand the surfaces till they are mirror clean, and then take rubber alcohol and a cu-tip and clean the whole point assembly and casing till dirt doesn't show up on the cu-tip anymore.

Make sure to pick up the right feelers gauge, and well and set the gap correctly before you start timing it.

To time it simply place any AM radio on a completely fuzzy clean station, near your point assembly and turn the crankshaft with a socket wrench clockwise. You should see some really nice spark when the points go off now. Now your probably wondering why you have an AM radio sitting near you on a fuzzy station. While you turn the crankshaft slowly you will hear the AM radio make a POP or similar sound. You want to align that POP noise with the F mark for 1&4 and 2&3. With this method you can get the timing very close, you will want to time it dead on with a timing light after you get it running on steady enough with the AM radio method.

Those spark plugs look fouled, you should pick up 4 new ones from Z1 or your local bike shop (if you can I would do that).

If your still having problems check back. Hope that helps. Great looking bike BTW

SD

[Dave-and-his-550]

Thanks for the post SD, I was worried people didn't seem to care at all about my problems any more

Alright the compression check is in!! And man, am I sweaty (Not tired though)

#1  #2  #3  #4
115 100 115 125
115   80 110 120
110 100  110 125
110 100  110 125

I was worried about the #2 cylinder for a while, so I tested it 3 more times, and got 125, 95, and 100. I did each cylinder 10 kicks. (Thats a lotta kicks huh) All was done cold.

SO, I guess my compression is pretty dang good? Maybe my bike didn't start because the spark gap is not the right length? Maybe the spark plug reach is to long or short?

I'm gonna go out and check point gap again, last time I did it i noticed it needed some adjusting, and cleaning. The cleaning I can do, but I couldn't BUDGE those darn screws, I'm afraid to use an impact driver on such seemingly fragile parts, any ideas how to loosen em? Can I use WD40 on them, or should I avoid parts of the ignition from grease?

[TwoTired]

Recheck the valve tappet clearance on #2

Stop worrying about the reach of the spark plug.  It is set by the Spark plug number and Honda did that work and worry for you. Trust them.

Do check/set the point gap, set the timing, (static is good enough). Lay a connected spark plug against the cylinder head watch for spark jumping across the electrode gap.  Do this for both coils.
Use the impact driver.

[Dave-and-his-550]

I turned it over with the electric start and I noticed the points seemed to be sparking in no particular order. The point for 1 and 4 seemed to spark a lot more then 2 and 3. I'm going to do a static timing on it tomorrow and see if I can get it adjusted right. If it STILL doesn't start after all I've done-New plugs, compression check, valve adjustment, new battery, filed points, carb rebuild-I'm giving up and calling a mechanic

[strangedaze39]

No problem Dave, glad I could add something. 

I think your points is definitely your problem.

To get those screws loose, just use some vise grips and get them loose enough to screw out. If you live near ACE hardware or any other good hardware store (not lowes, etc.) You want to take all point plate screws to the hardware store and find an exact match and just replace them all. If you can get them in allen, it will save you so much stress. If I recall right the break plate screws (the big screws that hold the big plate) are M5, I don't recall the smaller screws size.

After you replace or if thats not possible, salvage just make sure to use a bit of anti-seize on all the screws.

GL, with the bike. BTW have anymore pics? 

Oh and I totally understand on the carbs, they're just a pain and a half when they want to get finicky.

-SD

[Dave-and-his-550]

I think your points is definitely your problem.

I agree, but the WEIRD part of it is this: The bike started with the old spark plugs, and when I replaced them with new ones, it didn't start! How does that make sense?

So, as much as I play around with the points, I'm still worried it wont work...Oh well. I'm off to bed for now. Hope I can get some time in on it tomorrow and start it up, if not, I might just order that point set you posted.

[Dave-and-his-550]

I got a question about the gap adjustment.

Clymer says this:

Rotate the crankshaft until points for #1 and 4 are fully open. The point gap should be .012-.016 in.

And then it shows a diagram of it aligned on the F mark...

The Honda manual says this:

Rotate the crankshaft in the clockwise direction and align the F timing mark to the timing index mark. At this time the contact breaker points should JUST start to open.

Now, the Clymers manual doesn't say it needs to be on the F mark, but in the diagram it is, and then they state the gap should be .012-.016. So, basically thats wrong right? Because, the point gap shouldn't be .012-.016 on the F mark, it is just suppose to be OPENING on the F mark, the gap when it's FULLY open is suppose to be .012-.016, and thats after the F mark lines up with the index mark. I think. 

[TwoTired]

The point gap is adjusted while positioned on the highest point of the point cam.
The 1-4 plate is rotated so that the points open when the crank aligns with the F mark.

The plugs Fire when the points open.  The point gap relates to how long the coils charge up between firings. (using mechanical tolerances instead of measuring crankshaft rotation degrees.)
Cheers,

[Dave-and-his-550]

Well no wonder my bike isn't starting (at least I hope this is the reason) I set it at .014 when it was ON the F mark judging by the diagram in the Clymers manual. I'm gonna go make a few adjustments...And by that, I mean burn my Clymers Manual!

[Dave-and-his-550]

Update:

Ok, I did a static timing and it still doesn't start. It was off of course, so I moved the whole baseplate and got it corrected. My diode comes on right on the F marks for both. But, goes off at different places.



1 and 4 went on right at this mark. And off at this mark:



2 and 3 went on right at this mark, and off at this mark:


And finally, when I was outside a cool bi-plane flew over head!! I just had to take a picture



If you got firefox, right click and click view image, they are much bigger.

Lay a connected spark plug against the cylinder head watch for spark jumping across the electrode gap.  Do this for both coils.

Ok, just so I get this straight cause im gonna do this next, I pull #1 plug out of the cylinder, but leave it connected to the coil, and set the end so it touches the cylinder head. So it sparks when? When I just have the bike 'On' or do I have to kick it or hit the start button so it'll spark?

Should I take all the plugs out again when doing this? Just to make sure none of the other plugs begin to fire up their cylinder or does it not work like that

[TwoTired]

With the key switch on, there should be spark at the plug tip each time the point transition from closed to open.

You can do this with a screwdriver tip bridging the open points. (key on, of course)

But, if you want to gain more confidence about the points behaving as they should, kick or electric start.  Just make sure the battery is at full charge.

I think you may have misunderstood the marking scheme.  The letter values are assigned to the radial mark near the outer rim of the timing wheel.  The light should go on when the marks align, not the letter.
There are two marks over th "T" the left one is a mark for TDC (Top Dead Center) of the piston stroke.  The one immediately to the right of that is the Fire mark when the light should come on.  The marks to the far far right is for mechanical advance ignition timing.  These are checked with an induction timing light while the engine is running and revved above idle.

Cheers,

Edit: corrected a left/ right issue in my explanation.

[Dave-and-his-550]

The mark to the left of the F is the fire mark, and this is when the light should come on which it does, on both 1.4 and 2.3 The mark to the left of THAT mark is the TDC mark I believe.

I hate to suggest it as I have little experience compared to you but, did you make a typo in your post? Or is the mark directly to the left of the F really the TDC mark?

I'll also reply back when I check the spark on the plugs later tonight, I gotta do some work before I get around to it

[TwoTired]

The mark to the left of the F is the fire mark, and this is when the light should come on which it does, on both 1.4 and 2.3 The mark to the left of THAT mark is the TDC mark I believe.

I hate to suggest it as I have little experience compared to you but, did you make a typo in your post? Or is the mark directly to the left of the F really the TDC mark?

You are right.  I flubbed the explanation.  See corrections.

Cheers,

[Dave-and-his-550]

Well, I still haven't had a chance to check the coils, but what if they all check out? THEN what would explain why my bike doesn't start? I guess I could put in the old plugs and see if they work, considering they did before.

I checked my carbs and they are fueling up fine...This is really hurting moral 

[Dave-and-his-550]

All the plugs are providing a spark in sync with the timing light. It seemed to me like #2 was a much brighter spark every time compared to the others. 1, 4 and 3 were a weak purple spark, while 2 was a whiter, brighter spark.

It also seemed like #2 was sparking twice with a kick of the starter. I guess I can check my ignition timing again...

It still wont start, what should I do next?

[Dave-and-his-550]

Just as a recap I:

Checked and corrected ignition timing.

Checked the spark on all four plugs.

Replaced the three year old battery.

Adjusted the cam shafts.

Adjusted the cam chain.

Cleaned and rebuilt the carbs.

Bike still will not start. Maybe I torqued the plugs to much? Flooded the engine with fuel? Any ideas what I should check or do next?

Just for the record, I looked into the #2 spark plug hole and saw nothing but black soot. I wonder what thats an indication of...

[TwoTired]

Basic engine essentials:
Compression
Spark at the correct time.
And air fuel mixture that supports combustion.

If your engine doesn't run, it is missing one or more of these.  Your task is to figure out which.

Seems like you have verified spark and compression.  That leaves air/fuel mixture.

Are all the float bowls receiving fuel?

Do your choke butterflies all close fully?

Do your spark plugs smell like gas after you've kicked the bike a few times?

Do your spark plugs have any combustion deposits on them?

Have you charged the new battery?

If you think it may be flooded, take the choke off (use the open position), advance the throttle to wide open, and kick the engine over to purge the cylinders.

Cheers,

[Dave-and-his-550]

I haven't had a chance to check the float bowls, or any of the other fuel mixture variables as it is raining out now.

But I do remember, that when I checked each plug for spark, three were kind of a weak purple spark, and #2 was a brighter spark. So maybe my coils are bad?

I went outside and snapped some pictures of them, they are pretty rusty at the leads (I'm guessing)









Theres gotta be a way to test em right?

[Dave-and-his-550]

I think I think, perhaps I screwed something up with the carbs or something got stuck in my fuel line for the #3 and 4 carbs.

I checked the fuel drain plugs on the bowls, 1 and 2 dripped with fuel, but 3 and 4 were bone dry I unscrewed them completely and they weren't in the slightest wet with fuel!

This would also explain why my bike wasn't running on cylinder 3 and 4! I'll have to pull off the fuel line somehow (It's hard to reach in there and pull that sucker off, its on so tight!)

Maybe I'll take a shop-vac to it with a smaller extension, or maybe stick in a long flexible rod, something must be stuck in that fuel line!

[MJL]

I haven't had a chance to check the float bowls, or any of the other fuel mixture variables as it is raining out now.

But I do remember, that when I checked each plug for spark, three were kind of a weak purple spark, and #2 was a brighter spark. So maybe my coils are bad?

I went outside and snapped some pictures of them, they are pretty rusty at the leads (I'm guessing)



Theres gotta be a way to test em right?

Start by cleaning them, a bad connection can reduce voltage and make a weak spark.  Also, when I was fighting a lack of power in my 650 I had the coils tested at the local Honda dealer.  They had a rig that mimicked the points and plugs and tested my stuff up to 10,000 rpm.

[Reavis_99]

Dave,
         I just went through everything on my bike and I think I have found what is causing the same thing to your bike as is happening to mine. ( firing plugs 1-2 but not 3-4)  My idle jets or "slow jets" were clogged.  I had cleaned my carbs but not as good as what I thought.  I hope this helps.

[Hush]

If you are getting gas to two cylinders but not all, have you done something different with two of the carbs?
I managed to put all my floats in upside down and off course no gas got to the cylinders.
Could you have done that to two of your carbs?
You must have done something between changing those old spark plugs for the new ones?
If the bike ran before (even poorly) it was better than what you have now so you need to keep thinking about just what you did.
Did you yank on the plug leads instead of pulling from the plug caps, this will pull the leads out of the caps and even tho they look OK the wires will not be touching and spark will be lost.
I'm still thinking it is something in the fuel delivery side of things like are you sure you have enough gas in the tank right now?

[Reavis_99]

Dave it is the fix,  All you need to do is take out your slow jets and clean them.  I did it this weekend and sure enough as soon as I put them back in the carbs all four cylinders started running perfectly.  Make sure you take carb cleaner and shoot through them. They also just unscrew out of the carbs with a regular screw driver you cant mess it up.  Mine were bad enough I had to let them soak in carb cleaner for 24 hours and then I shot carb cleaner through them.  This should fix you up.  Good luck let me know if I can help anymore.

[trprbill]

From what I see of your plugs they look rich. Floats set ok?

[Dave-and-his-550]

If you are getting gas to two cylinders but not all, have you done something different with two of the carbs?
I managed to put all my floats in upside down and off course no gas got to the cylinders.
Could you have done that to two of your carbs?
You must have done something between changing those old spark plugs for the new ones?
If the bike ran before (even poorly) it was better than what you have now so you need to keep thinking about just what you did.
Did you yank on the plug leads instead of pulling from the plug caps, this will pull the leads out of the caps and even tho they look OK the wires will not be touching and spark will be lost.
I'm still thinking it is something in the fuel delivery side of things like are you sure you have enough gas in the tank right now?

I'm certain each plug is getting spark as I did the test TwoTired mentioned. I thought about not enough fuel in the tank, but I got like 3+gallons in there. I really think its a poor spark because of coils, and no fuel in #3 and 4. I just got home from the weekend.

I'm going to take a look at that fuel line, and pop off the bowls and see whats up and also check the fuel line between the tank and my inline fuel filter (I can't imagine it would be plugged up beyond the filter?)

Dave it is the fix,  All you need to do is take out your slow jets and clean them.  I did it this weekend and sure enough as soon as I put them back in the carbs all four cylinders started running perfectly.  Make sure you take carb cleaner and shoot through them. They also just unscrew out of the carbs with a regular screw driver you cant mess it up.  Mine were bad enough I had to let them soak in carb cleaner for 24 hours and then I shot carb cleaner through them.  This should fix you up.  Good luck let me know if I can help anymore.

Thanks for the tips Reavis! I replied to your PM before I read this thread giving YOU tips on how to fix your problem, and it looks like you don't need em anymore! 

I do know almost for certain my carbs are clean as a whistle. My first project on this bike was cleaning the carbs, and hell did they need it!

From this:


To this:




I also inspected the carbs one more time the moment before I put em back on my bike. Although, if #3 and 4 are dry, they could be corroded again due to a lot of rain we've been having

...I'll check anyway.

From what I see of your plugs they look rich. Floats set ok?

Yep, floats are set at 22mm. The plugs you're lookin at are the old ones. I installed new ones

Edit: It's been confirmed. There was junk plugging up my fuel line and it's been eradicated 

[Dave-and-his-550]

Shes alive!!!! And runnin on all four! Now the game of fine tuning will begin...Thanks for all the advice my fellow SOHC'ers 

Cheers,

Dave

[Klark Kent]

woot- ride the ass off it.

[alltherightpills]

Isn't bringing them back from the dead one of the greatest feelings in the world?

[Dave-and-his-550]

Isn't bringing them back from the dead one of the greatest feelings in the world?

I was riding around on two cylinders thinking "God this really sucks!" then, when I got the fuel line fixed, the new plugs installed and the ignition timed right, I was riding around laughing with joy feeling the power of all four under my ass. Unfortunetly I ate a couple bugs for lunch

You're in Iowa City? I'm in Fairfield

[alltherightpills]

Hey, a couple of bugs just means you got a little extra protein

How's life with all of the Maharishis? 

[Dave-and-his-550]

How's life with all of the Maharishis? 

I've certainly gotten my fill of Indian food