Author Topic: Oil change: how much truth there is in "conventional wisdom"?  (Read 17562 times)

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Offline 754

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Re: Oil change: how much truth there is in "conventional wisdom"?
« Reply #75 on: July 18, 2008, 05:50:22 AM »
if you never plan on rebuilding, because you plan on replacing the engine it may not be an issue.. but you could sure get stuck on a used engine.. and your now wore out one can be a poor source of parts.
 I agree. oil is way cheaper in N America..
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Re: Oil change: how much truth there is in "conventional wisdom"?
« Reply #76 on: July 18, 2008, 06:15:07 AM »
All good point raul and buber. Those engine parts look absolutely fine.
As for the sediment part, I guess maybe I am doing it right, I do not get sediment other than bits of sludge that the rotella t still cleans off every now and then as this is just the second change using the stuff. I get no metal shavings or anything like that.
Some time, if I can afford it(my cycle budget is very limited)I am going to get my oil analyzed but I am pretty sure I know the results. And they will be in my favor.

Offline scondon

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Re: Oil change: how much truth there is in "conventional wisdom"?
« Reply #77 on: July 18, 2008, 09:28:13 AM »
Allright, let's forget about conventional wisdom and look at the facts:

Oil is needed for lubrication: fact
Oil degrades with time, use and heat-cool cycles: haven't got evidence, but I assume it is fact.
Oil collects carbon deposits and metal shavings from the engine: fact -if you change your oil you know it is a fact-.


Anybody who buys a vehicle knows that he will have to change the oil. That's conventional wisdom. Conventional wisdom says that he should heed to what the manufacturer says.

The only important thing in the above mentioned facts is the first one: oil is needed for lubrication. We change the oil because we fear that the two latter facts affect the lubing properties of the oil. If we were told our oil would last forever and that metal shavings would never harm our engine, who would care in changing the oil in spite of the black color or the sediments?

So, the best moment to change the oil is whichever comes first of these two moments: the oil has degraded beyond it's lubing capabilities, or the amount of sediment is beyond the safe point.

If the carbon and shavings issue is so important, why wasting my money in expensive oil? Shavings and carbon are unrelated to oil, the amount of carbon and shavings depends on the engine condition. Therefore, if I have to renew the oil after 3.000 miles, I would buy the cheapest oil as long as it doesn't degrade before that point. That would open a new discussion, as my 3.000 miles may be different than yours. City traffic is not the same as road traffic etc, but let's assume they are the same.


Now, if a manufacturer says that you can get away with 10.000 miles service intervals, he is telling you that the carbon and shavings are not important up to that point. If they are not important in THAT bike, why should it be in THIS bike? Technology has come a long way, but mostly outside the engine. Inside the engine everythings looks very much the same, heads and cylinder tunnels are made of aluminum, barrels are made of iron etc. And don't tell me the tolerances were looser 30 years ago. Back then they were perfectly able to machine a piston and cylinder at the exact tolerance, like today. The amount of carbon and shavings should be pretty similar in old and new machines.


How about braking with the rear wheel? Raise your hand anyone who has ever believed that the best way to brake was with the rear to avoid flying over the handlebar -I raise my hand-. It just takes a little faith and a hard braking to check by oneself that the rear braking myth was conventional wisdom. Other things -like service intervals- are harder to demonstrate and takes more faith and less self-experience.

   Ah, the sweet smell of sanity. Thanks for tapping this one out Raul :) :) :) :)
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Offline jonbuoy

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Re: Oil change: how much truth there is in "conventional wisdom"?
« Reply #78 on: July 18, 2008, 09:48:36 AM »
"Changing oil, is the CHEAPEST thing you can do to your motor..!"
in the long run..
Just to stir teh pot.... I beg to differ.
Some of my points fo view, and thoughts -
Oil price - to many of you it may be inignificant, but to me it is. Simply - In Europe cheapo oil for motorcycles (mineral) will cost minimum 10U$ a liter (which is just a tad more than a quart, but we can assume it's the same), dedicated full synth for motorcycles will cost anything between 15 and, say 18 U$. Now, if I'm to pay every 2-3 months 60U$ for oil, then I will think about it. Now, you will say, that soon my engine will go bye-bye... Well, last time i looked at ebay, I could find a 650 engine fro 200u$ - in US, granted, but on the other hand, I found my bike for 450 euros. So..... maybe it's better to simply ride and enjoy?
Other thing - that made me think a lot! I know a guy that works in London as a courier. he is whacking something like 60-70.000 kms in a year on a bike - rides all day, every day. And he said teh following: "I'm using a Suzuki GS500 - air cooled. I bought it with something like 50.000 kms. Now, it had over 100.000 and I DIDN'T CHANGE THE OIL. Only filled up. Consumption was normal." He did it because he didn't had time and money to timker with oil changes.
Now, topic became very hot (on the other forum) so, he put the engine apart.
http://www.wbv.pl/gallery.php?entry=images/vjykkyo0dmejmjz2mmny.jpg
http://www.wbv.pl/gallery.php?entry=images/mwx42quzyjzm2ngymyjm.jpg
http://www.wbv.pl/gallery.php?entry=images/o5wztdyemtyayelzvn4h.jpg
Those are internals of an engine with 60kkm without oil change.

Now, maybe it's bogus, but I don't see why he would bother. On the other hand - change the oil as often as you think, I'm changing every spring, with the filter, and I do about 10-12kkm a season (that's about 6500miles). And I won't change oil in between. It's not worth it.

Either way - do whetever makes you happy! After all if it was about transportation (getting from point A to point B) we should all use bicycles, or public transportation or something... yet we all ride old, obsolete, motorcycles...  ;D

Lets see his camshaft.

eldar

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Re: Oil change: how much truth there is in "conventional wisdom"?
« Reply #79 on: July 18, 2008, 10:37:09 AM »
Would that matter? What if the cam is fine? Will you change your mind or even considre things? That is the point raul has been trying to make. I would like to see the cam too, but if those parts are any indication, that cam will be fine.

Offline 333

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Re: Oil change: how much truth there is in "conventional wisdom"?
« Reply #80 on: July 18, 2008, 10:56:26 AM »
Yeah, in America they don't know much about motorcycle couriers.

Maybe today, with fax machines in every room, and UPS and FedEx doing a decent job.  But back in the day(you whippersnapper) I got a bike to be a M/C courier here in Washington D.C..  And then there was a company called "Metro Messengers".  They used old BMW /2s that had literally a million miles on each one.  I'd love to know what oil they used in them.  In the mid 80s, they sold all the BMWs and got Honda 250 Rebels.  I don't know if it was fax machines or the Rebels, but within 5 years they were out of business.
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Offline Tower

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Re: Oil change: how much truth there is in "conventional wisdom"?
« Reply #81 on: July 18, 2008, 11:24:31 AM »
Raul and Buber have the right approach in trying to remove the assumptions from the facts.  Along those lines I offer this, rather lengthy  :-\, analysis:

What does oil do?
1.   Lubricates: Two types of forces act on oil, compression, such as in the crankcase, and shearing, such as in the gear box and clutch.  The heavier the oil weight the more compression it can stand.  The “slipperier” the oil the more shear force it can stand.
2.   Transfers heat: A measure called the heat coefficient can be determined for any material including oil.  In general, organic or carbon based materials have smaller coefficients (transfer heat more poorly) than metallic and non-organic based material.  Oil is a carbon based material.
3.   Suspends and emulsifies: Ability to keep particles in suspension is related to viscosity and surface tension.  Oil has low surface tension but has high viscosity.  To improve suspension characteristics, oils may contain detergents.  To increase viscosity oils may contain other additives.  Oil may also suspend non-particulate liquids, that do not easily dissolve into oil, such as water.
4.   Dissolves chemicals: Oil is a poor solvent.  However, some chemicals produced inside an engine can dissolve into the oil. Petroleum based chemicals such as gasoline, partially burned gasoline, rubber, plastics and many petroleum based solvents and other chemicals are at least partially soluble in oil.

Do these characteristics change as oil gets used in a SOHC4?

Lubrication: Almost no amount of compression would be sufficient to break down an oil’s lubricating properties.  Hence, compression wear has almost no effect on this characteristic.  Carbon chains can be “sheared” or “cracked” by high temperature and physical shear force.  Hence, oil can loose its slipperiness in this process.  However, the point to remember here is that oil is soooooo slippery, that an engine in many lifetimes could not change this factor sufficiently to make a difference.  It would overheat and seize first.  Even the combination of compression plus heat is insufficient to deteriorate oil to any significant extent in a SOHC4.  Topping up would certainly add more lubrication than was lost due to shear or compression.

Transfers heat:  This factor actually improves with use.  As the content in suspension contains no metallic compounds at first, but may slowly accumulate metal oxides as microscopic dust and or shavings, the oil’s heat coefficient may increase.  However, this increase is as minor as almost not worth mentioning.

Suspends and emulsifies:  Oil works by forming a thin film between two surfaces that would otherwise make direct contact.  The film extensively prevents friction and hence extensively reduces heat from friction.  Also, oil prevents metal oxidation to some extend by “bonding” with the metal and preventing oxygen from making those bonds.  This applies to all parts of the engine, from rings, to camshaft, to gears and clutch plates.  However, there is still some surface to surface contact.  Under certain conditions the oil film is scraped away or flung away, and the result is significant engine wear.  In some parts of the engine, the surface material is subject to deterioration (burning mostly, such as the clutch).  The product of this wear or deterioration is transferred to the oil where it is suspended through agitation and carried away.  Oil filtration traps larger particles.  But, the microscopic ones remain in suspension as long as the oil is being agitated.  Oil that has emulsifier additives (detergents) tends to keep those particles in suspension even when the oil is not being agitated.  However, microscopic metal oxides do not always pose a problem, especially if they are smaller than the thickness of the oil film.  Particles that small are the bulk of the “black” colour in used oil.   Alternately, the use of non-detergent, single weight, super-slippery (synthetic) would also help obviate this condition, as non-microscopic particles would leave suspension when the engine is stopped.  “Grit” is the clumping of particles and gums that form as the oil cools and herein lies the main notion that oil must be changed because its “dirty”.  Note that changing the filter has an unexpected side effect.  New filters are not as efficient at removing smaller particles as are older filters.  Of course clogged filters are not at all efficinet.

Dissolves chemicals: The types of chemicals that dissolve in oil may have a deteriorating effect on oil.  The effect of diluting the oil with solvents (gasoline, carb cleaner, tetra-chlorides, sulfates, etc), is to alter its viscosity and/or slipperiness.  This is certainly one reason to change oil.  However, under normal conditions, these chemicals are not present insufficient quantities to alter the oils characteristics in a significant way.  But, if the oil smells of gasoline, or rotten eggs, or strawberries, its probably sufficiently contaminated to make a change.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Oil change: how much truth there is in "conventional wisdom"?
« Reply #82 on: July 18, 2008, 01:07:40 PM »
I rather like Tower's analysis.  I would like to add something that hasn't been mentioned for a while, that contributes to the oil's duration of usefulness.

Fluids aren't known for their compressive qualities.  But, if you apply enough pressure on them, they heat from this compression.  Oil is no exception.  When the engine is making power, the compressive forces the piston places on wrist pin, rod, and crank journals is quite significant.  The oil heats from within during this compression.  And, the more power the engine is making, the higher this spike in heating occurs.  The material specs for oil all have a breakdown temperature.  What they don't state it how long the oil must remain at this temperature before breakdown occurs.  It's unlikely to be an absolute temp limit, unless the temp is held constant.  Like passing your finger through an open flame, do it quickly, it feels hot, but no damage.  Dally in the flame, and the chemical structure of your finger begins to change.

So, it must be with the oil blends.  Spot heating the oil begins to change the chemical properties of the oil, at least in part, which becomes more widespread with time, use, and the conditions of use.  I would estimate that engines that are actually operated at a higher power density, require more frequent oil changes than, say, a 60HP capable engine operated at 5 HP output.

Could it be that ofreen's oil and engine longevity is partly because of the average power levels he employs?

Cheers,
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Offline scondon

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Re: Oil change: how much truth there is in "conventional wisdom"?
« Reply #83 on: July 18, 2008, 01:25:35 PM »
Could it be that ofreen's oil and engine longevity is partly because of the average power levels he employs?

   Nice thought Lloyd, but that would mean that everyone would have to take into account their riding habits, engine specifics, and power output to determine what might be proper oil type/maintenance for their bike.

  In our quest for single truth your heresy has no place, be gone foul spirit >:( ;) :D :D

  OK, ok....... just really happy Friday is finally here. I should get back to serious posting at some point soon ;)  Thanks TWR, TT for the very digestible info :)
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Re: Oil change: how much truth there is in "conventional wisdom"?
« Reply #84 on: July 18, 2008, 01:32:22 PM »
Good info but not what is really at discussion. We all know how oil works and why it works. The main thing is wether or not the frequent changes are needed. How long it may really take oil to wear out. Things such as that. I mean, there are a lot of high mile motors out there that do not get changed very often. The challenge is if anyone wants to actually think about this or just keep doing the same thing "cause it has always been done that way".

Offline scondon

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Re: Oil change: how much truth there is in "conventional wisdom"?
« Reply #85 on: July 18, 2008, 01:39:16 PM »
Good info but not what is really at discussion. We all know how oil works and why it works. The main thing is wether or not the frequent changes are needed. How long it may really take oil to wear out. Things such as that.

    Huh? That is exactly the info that is contained in what I just read ??? ??? ??? ??? ???

     Maybe the question needs changing if the answers aren't making sense ???


      Confused in CA
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Re: Oil change: how much truth there is in "conventional wisdom"?
« Reply #86 on: July 18, 2008, 02:28:30 PM »
I didnt get that out of it. It states what oil does, we already know this. It states what happens to oil. We know this too.
but there is nothing that answers when to change oil or how to change it. It does not say that 1500 is good or 4000 will suffice.

It sure adds info though.

A person is going to change oil when they want, the whole idea is to question if the bike needs the change or if  person is just doing it because an old book said so or they learned it from their father who got it from his father.
I would rather not change too often, I get better shifting after the oil has gone through for a couple hundred miles than when it is fresh. 

Here is another thought.
Is there a "break-in period" for oil?
I have always experienced better running after the oil has been in for a bit, as in 100 miles.

Offline scondon

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Re: Oil change: how much truth there is in "conventional wisdom"?
« Reply #87 on: July 18, 2008, 03:11:25 PM »

It sure adds info though.

    The info is what's required for one to determine the answer for themselves. If you are seeking a single answer then the problem is in the question:

Oil change: how much truth there is in "conventional wisdom"?


 It does not say that 1500 is good or 4000 will suffice.
 

50,000 miles is both good AND bad depending...............

depending on what?

Ahhhhhhhh....there we go, now we're moving somewhere. More info is needed to answer the initial question since the question is flawed. More info poses more questions as we travel down the path in pursuit of knowledge. Kinda like college, remember?(I don't ;) ).

 Every oil thread I've read in these forums has boiled down to "do I exist?". If there is a pre-determined answer that you have please post it so we can find the right question to fit it :)

Seeking a simple truth about oil that can be applied universally?

Oil in SOHC/4 engine:   GOOD

Oil in SOHC/4 Forum thread: A serious mind#$%* that tends to thin the weak from the herd(not you or anyone else,Eldar. I just found the sentence amusing  ;D ).
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Online ofreen

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Re: Oil change: how much truth there is in "conventional wisdom"?
« Reply #88 on: July 18, 2008, 04:47:15 PM »

Could it be that ofreen's oil and engine longevity is partly because of the average power levels he employs?

Cheers,

It could be.  The engine still sees redline occasionally (because I think it is good for it), and this afternoon was a typical commute home with 25 minutes at 70-75 mph, then 10 minutes of stop light to stop light, air temp 90F.  Did the same thing all week, temps over 100 a couple of the days.  The bike isn't babied.
Greg
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martino1972

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Re: Oil change: how much truth there is in "conventional wisdom"?
« Reply #89 on: July 18, 2008, 06:37:47 PM »
damn,6 pages of letters and not a single picture,snif.. ;D ;D

eldar

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Re: Oil change: how much truth there is in "conventional wisdom"?
« Reply #90 on: July 18, 2008, 07:03:54 PM »
Well there we go. Ofreen might not rod every single mile but the bike gets used well. His changes got way over the "service limit" and his bike seems to do just fine. So in a stock bike, if using decent oil, 2-3000 miles is probably absolutely fine. I suppose if you have bored yours, well then any thing may go but then your bike is not stock anymore either.

Offline scondon

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Re: Oil change: how much truth there is in "conventional wisdom"?
« Reply #91 on: July 18, 2008, 08:14:42 PM »
 AND if you use 30wt. you don't ever have to change it ever. Never,ever,ever :) :)
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Offline mystic_1

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Re: Oil change: how much truth there is in "conventional wisdom"?
« Reply #92 on: July 18, 2008, 08:57:52 PM »
AND if you use 30wt. you don't ever have to change it ever. Never,ever,ever :) :)


Natural or synthetic?

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Offline mark

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Re: Oil change: how much truth there is in "conventional wisdom"?
« Reply #93 on: July 19, 2008, 12:11:07 AM »
damn,6 pages of letters and not a single picture,snif.. ;D ;D

........ here ya go....




I can tell when oil starts to go "off."  The engines becomes noticeably noisier and buzzier, shifts more balky.  This is especially noticeable on hot days.
I've noticed this, too.  It's a clear signal for me to change the oil regardless of miles on the oil....
Cheers,

This works for me.

fwiw... Castrol was showing signs at 700-800 miles... Rotella at around 1100.


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Offline Deltarider

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Re: Oil change: how much truth there is in "conventional wisdom"?
« Reply #94 on: July 19, 2008, 05:27:42 AM »
A few months ago a man was interviewed in a Dutch consumers program on radio as well on tv. The man is fighting a 30 year crusade against what he describes as the international oilchangemaffia. He states that oilchanges are unnecessary and that worldwide a staggering € 200.000.000.000,- is wasted, not to mention the damage to the environment. He once shared the results of a test he did with his headoffice in the U.K. and was kindly requested to keep his mouth shut. What he did was this: in twenty years he NEVER changed the oil in his automobile, did 160.000 km, mainly short distances. Then he had the oil tested in a lab and was very much suprised by the results. The oil was as good as new and because of the sootparticles was actually upgraded (for this reason owners of some new Audi models, that suffer from noisy valverockers, are advised to use secondhand oil!) Immediately after he went public, his view was supported by experts in the field, who themselves never ever change the oil. Btw, neither do mechanics but they do not want to be quoted.
Mr. de Groot's car now has done 350.000 km without changing the oil. Years ago he soldered a tiny chip on his oildipstick that can detect when the oil becomes acid. So far it didn't. Important however, he says, is to top up the oil when needed.

Also in Germany there is a growing number of people that never change the oil in their car. A German televisionprogram showed owners of Mercedes Benzes that had already covered 200.000 km without an oilchange and the owner of a Fiat Ducato never changed his since 1996. Their message is the same: just top up when necessary and that's it.

IMO the intervals we find in our owner manuals are a bit silly. Maybe these were based on the poorest quality oil possible sold in some forgotten faraway countries where Honda happened to export to. Since a friend of mine bought a new CB650 in 1980 and showed me his manual, I see no reason not to double the intervals of mine (from 3000 to 6000 km) as both engines are practically the same.

Oops, I almost forgot. Before he retired Mr. de Groot was the managing director of... Castrol (The Netherlands).


« Last Edit: September 27, 2015, 10:13:55 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Oil change: how much truth there is in "conventional wisdom"?
« Reply #95 on: July 19, 2008, 07:47:15 AM »
Well, I guess "conventional wisdom" is truth until proved otherwise. I know that in the 80's some large fleets only changed the filters and added a quart every few thousand miles. They topped off the oil when needed.
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Offline jonbuoy

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Re: Oil change: how much truth there is in "conventional wisdom"?
« Reply #96 on: July 19, 2008, 09:40:16 AM »
I picture says a thousand words.......think I'll keep changing mine  ;D

eldar

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Re: Oil change: how much truth there is in "conventional wisdom"?
« Reply #97 on: July 19, 2008, 09:59:35 AM »
Well lets examine your pics shall we. the ones of the cams, that is sludge build up but are you sure the engine was damaged? Maybe a teardown would be in order to actually inspect the moving parts.

that oil pan shot, sorry but not oil related really Something else happened to cause that. Looks like a lot of water got in there. Either that or the oil was very old as in years and was a very old formula or maybe some one on stuck paraffin wax in the oil. I have heard of that. Point is, those pics may look bad but does that mean it IS bad?

the oil filter shot, what does that filter come from? I think that needs to be established before we can conclude that it applies to this conversation.

you do not base all your info off of partial data do you?

Offline jonbuoy

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Re: Oil change: how much truth there is in "conventional wisdom"?
« Reply #98 on: July 19, 2008, 10:19:34 AM »
Well lets examine your pics shall we. the ones of the cams, that is sludge build up but are you sure the engine was damaged? Maybe a teardown would be in order to actually inspect the moving parts.

that oil pan shot, sorry but not oil related really Something else happened to cause that. Looks like a lot of water got in there. Either that or the oil was very old as in years and was a very old formula or maybe some one on stuck paraffin wax in the oil. I have heard of that. Point is, those pics may look bad but does that mean it IS bad?

the oil filter shot, what does that filter come from? I think that needs to be established before we can conclude that it applies to this conversation.

you do not base all your info off of partial data do you?

Man you guys crack me up - no signs of engine damage seriously??  Did you even look at the pictures?  You don't think that stop start driving over short distances can cause condensation build up and emulsification of the oil.  The oil in your engine WILL get old if you don't ever change it!   I tell you what  - you no oil change fellas can keep your heads in the sand and not change your oils and filters and see where you are in 100,000 K's.  I like everyone else with an ounce of mechanical sense will be changing mine regulary.

Offline Tower

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Re: Oil change: how much truth there is in "conventional wisdom"?
« Reply #99 on: July 19, 2008, 10:50:08 AM »
The analysis I presented supports the notion that oil never needs to be changed under normal circumstances in a SOHC4.  The reason is that no mechanism in normal engine performance contributes any significant factors to oil deterioration.  The key word is "normal", and that includes hard use, high mileage, etc.  Conversely "abnormal" would include water seepage, chemical contamination, overheating, etc.

This is not to be confused with environment in which the engine is run.  For example, if the engine is inhaling road dust, that is not an oil related condition/problem.  Most certainly the dust will speed the wear of rings and ultimately bearings.  But don't blame the oil for that.  The oil (old or new) will still suspend and carry away any grit that it makes contact with, unfortunately not before the grit does its damage.

The issue of sludge is another such problem.  The real question is why does the sludge form in the first place.  The answer is related more to engine design and abnormal operation, than to oil properties. Engines that accumulate oil in places where water condensation occurs as the engine cools (or never comes to full operating temperature), develop sludge.  Engines that drain oil away from those places or are operated at full operating temperature, don't develop sludge (under normal use).  Regardless, what can oil do help or hinder this problem?

One of the characteristics I mentioned was emulsification of non-particulate liquids (water in this case).  When oil (or gasoline for that matter) is mixed with water and alum or other metal oxides, it can gel.  This is a physical change more than a chemical one.  As such, it can be "un-gelled" by removing the emulsified water: first, by dissolving the gel into more oil (or gasoline) that is poor at emulsification (especially synthetic),; then by heating the oil to the point where the water evaporates.  In other words by operating the engine at normal temperatures.

The pictures posted by @jonbuoy are informative, however, they play to our emotional side more than to our analytical side.  They show sludge and ask us to erroneously conclude that oil changes are the cure.