Author Topic: Is there any demand for a superior ignition unit.  (Read 1894 times)

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ekasey

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Is there any demand for a superior ignition unit.
« on: July 16, 2008, 09:47:16 AM »
Is there any demand for a superior ignition unit to replace what's currently out there?

It would utilize a simple 5 tooth trigger wheel

Any coils you want

could come with a harness and all the bits.

What would the price range need to be

Is the factory bike fitted with any type of trigger wheels?

Offline markjenn

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Re: Is there any demand for a superior ignition unit.
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2008, 10:16:11 AM »
The Dynas install easily and work pretty well.  I'm not groking what you'd gain by using optical rather than magnetic triggering.

- Mark

ekasey

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Re: Is there any demand for a superior ignition unit.
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2008, 12:08:17 PM »
We would prefer to use a mag trigger

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Is there any demand for a superior ignition unit.
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2008, 12:46:18 PM »
The SOHC4 is a 4 cylinder bike that currently has two trigger contact points linked to the crankshaft to fire the coils.  No spark distributor.  It's a wasted spark system.  A pair of cylinders fire each time the piston comes past TDC.

How does a 5 tooth trigger accomplish this?

I can see a 4 tooth trigger and 4 coils.
I can see a 2 tooth trigger and 2 coils.

Further, the advance mechanism is currently sprung weight mechanical.  Do you plan to use this?  Or, will you supply a crank adapter and generate advance by electronic means?

Be aware that current consumption is a significant factor.  The stock current draw is 2-2.5amps @ 55% duty cycle for each coil, or 2.7A total (34 watts).  The smaller SOHC4s only have a 150 watt charging system max, and only about 50 watts at idle, total production, so the battery is already draining with around town stop light traffic patterns, provided ANY lighting is enabled.  Also, the alternator consumes 30 watts to make ANY power.  If your ignition system has any higher consumption than the stock one, you're going to make people unhappy with a strong ignition and a dead battery that won't run the bike at all unless the bike idles at 3000 rpm.

Just curious how you'll overcome these issues.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

ekasey

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Re: Is there any demand for a superior ignition unit.
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2008, 02:22:06 PM »
It would still maintain a wasted spark system, ignition curve would be through a 3d table.

5 tooth 4 coils = 1 odd tooth for a sync 1 tooth per cylinder

Current consumption is more dependent on the coils used then the ignition unit itself.

thanks for the info this is good feedback so far?

Any idea of what people would be willing to pay?


The SOHC4 is a 4 cylinder bike that currently has two trigger contact points linked to the crankshaft to fire the coils.  No spark distributor.  It's a wasted spark system.  A pair of cylinders fire each time the piston comes past TDC.

How does a 5 tooth trigger accomplish this?

I can see a 4 tooth trigger and 4 coils.
I can see a 2 tooth trigger and 2 coils.

Further, the advance mechanism is currently sprung weight mechanical.  Do you plan to use this?  Or, will you supply a crank adapter and generate advance by electronic means?

Be aware that current consumption is a significant factor.  The stock current draw is 2-2.5amps @ 55% duty cycle for each coil, or 2.7A total (34 watts).  The smaller SOHC4s only have a 150 watt charging system max, and only about 50 watts at idle, total production, so the battery is already draining with around town stop light traffic patterns, provided ANY lighting is enabled.  Also, the alternator consumes 30 watts to make ANY power.  If your ignition system has any higher consumption than the stock one, you're going to make people unhappy with a strong ignition and a dead battery that won't run the bike at all unless the bike idles at 3000 rpm.

Just curious how you'll overcome these issues.

Cheers,

Offline Joel

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Re: Is there any demand for a superior ignition unit.
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2008, 02:24:55 PM »
Where will you fit the two additional coils?

ekasey

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Re: Is there any demand for a superior ignition unit.
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2008, 02:56:00 PM »
Haven't got that far.... yet, Regardless my CB will get one, because it's free to me just have to spend the time.

Where will you fit the two additional coils?

Offline eurban

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Re: Is there any demand for a superior ignition unit.
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2008, 03:53:47 PM »
Is there any demand for a superior ignition unit to replace what's currently out there?

It would utilize a simple 5 tooth trigger wheel

Any coils you want

could come with a harness and all the bits.

What would the price range need to be

Is the factory bike fitted with any type of trigger wheels?
People seem willing to spend $ to replace the stock points based ignitions.  Dyna offers both an electronic unit that replaces the points but maintains the stock mechanical advancer (Dyna S about $150) and a higher performance unit that electronically controls advance and can be programmed (Dyna 2000 between $300-$400).  Dyna and others also offer higher output coils.   Improve performance and or price over these existing options and you could make some sales. . . Stock ignition is driven straight off of the end of the crankshaft. . . .Oh and you might want to repost / move this to the SOHC4 bikes forum as the tricks and tips section doesn't get as much interest and your question really doesn't belong here. . . .
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 04:01:37 PM by eurban »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Is there any demand for a superior ignition unit.
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2008, 05:15:18 PM »
It would still maintain a wasted spark system, ignition curve would be through a 3d table.

5 tooth 4 coils = 1 odd tooth for a sync 1 tooth per cylinder

The coils fire twice per crankshaft revolution, 180 degrees apart.  If you're still using wasted spark and four coils, then you are firing two coils at a time, you need two triggers and the connectivity determines which coils are firing.
I don't understand the need for a sync pulse.  Why is any cylinder's needs different from the others?

Current consumption is more dependent on the coils used then the ignition unit itself.
True, unless your unit does more than simply switch 12V power on and off like the points do or the Dyna does.  What are the advantages to your scheme?

Any idea of what people would be willing to pay?
For an electronic switch?  That depends on your marketing skills.  What benefits do you expect to provide?
I'm still using points, 'cause I think the Dyna unit is and always has been, too expensive for what it does.  But, there are lot of people who think it's the bee's knees.  Or, even pay far more for a digital unit with a rev limiter, and adjustable advance.

I think you are going to have to sell reliabilty pretty hard.  The points are as reliable as dirt, and can be made to function even in Tierra Del Fuego. If your unit packs up how long to make it work again?

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Pinhead

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Re: Is there any demand for a superior ignition unit.
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2008, 04:38:05 PM »
I don't know exactly what your ignition plans are, but if it were me, I'd build a Multi-discharge CDI system.

I'm considering building the system myself, but time and funds are limiting me right now. What exactly are your plans? What will be the benefits of your system?
Doug

Click --> Cheap Regulator/Rectifier for any of Honda's 3-phase charging systems (all SOHC4's).

GM HEI Ignition Conversion

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Offline heffay

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Re: Is there any demand for a superior ignition unit.
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2008, 05:07:29 PM »
i don't really want to know about your highly new fangled electronix that might or might not explode when the 5th cylinder fires... welcome to the forums... tell us about yourself?
Today: '73 cb350f, '96 Ducati 900 Supersport
Past Rides: '72 tc125, '94 cbr600f2, '76 rd400, '89 ex500, '93 KTM-125exc, '92 zx7r, '93 Banshee, '83 ATC250R, 77/75 cb400f

Offline DarkRider

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Re: Is there any demand for a superior ignition unit.
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2008, 05:42:36 PM »
we do have the Hondaman ignition along with the Dyna options.
'84 Chevy C10
'73 MGB Roadster
'69 Ford F250

Currently a rider without a bike

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