Topic: 'flat part' on starter... oops, maybe it's the charging system!

[eurban]

Fully charged battery should read out at 12.6 volts.  How come "just sitting, not running" the voltage was less than 12??  Was the battery "fully charged"? Is the gauge reading correctly?  If yes and yes, seems like the battery or charger or both has issues.  If the battery wasn't fully charged for the test then charge and try again . .  . .Here's a chart for your viewing pleasure (from some RV site but applies here too!)

[Pinhead]

Here's a step-by-step that I went through to fix my alternator problems.

1. Measure field coil (rotor) resistance. If below 4 ohms or above 10 ohms, replace the rotor and start over.

2. Verify that the brushes contact the rotor.

3. Start the bike and connect battery voltage directly to the field coil leads.

4. Test voltage.
--If battery voltage rises as the engine revs up, your field coil, stator, and rectifier are all likely to be good. Regulator or wiring likely at fault. Continue to #5.
--If battery voltage stays steady or drops, either the rectifier or stator is bad. Skip to #6

5. Reconnect all leads and verify that the regulator has both a ground reference and a positive voltage reference.
--If not ground reference or positive voltage reference is missing, check wires and then start over.
--If ground and battery voltage is present, replace the regulator and then start over.

6. Switch your volt meter to AC volts. Check for voltage between all 3 yellow stator wires with the harness disconnected (ignition on, engine running).
--If you get 13 or more volts (I've seen up to 50v) across all 3 wires, your stator is good. Replace rectifier and start over.
--If you don't get at least 13 or more volts across all three wires, your stator (or wiring between the stator and the rectifier) is bad. Check wiring; replace stator and start over if the wiring isn't at fault.

7. Disconnect the stator harness. With the ignition off, verify resistance between all 3 yellow wires from the stator (check your manual for correct resistance readings.
--If your resistance readings are out of range, replace the stator and start over.
--If your resistance readings are correct, you've effectively checked everything that I can think of, and there has to be a wiring fault.
8. By now you should have an idea what is wrong.

[Frankenkit]

Fully charged battery should read out at 12.6 volts.  How come "just sitting, not running" the voltage was less than 12??  Was the battery "fully charged"?

The battery was 12.55 a few days ago.  Between starting it and messing with it, having the lights on etc and just idling it, it was around 11.9 or so.  When X tested the battery, it was at 11.9 before beginning. Disconnected the multimeter, started the bike, and got it warmed up a little and idling.  Reconnected the multimeter.  At idle (1250-1400 rpms) it read '11.9'  At 2000 it read the same.  At 3000 it read the same.  4 and 5k were the same as well.  She put the high beam on and it dropped to 11.8, but went back up to 11.9 again once she turned off the high beam.  Multimeter was connected to battery terminals. 

How should I interpret this, other than that it's a) not charging, obviously and b) kind of low, anyway?

Pinhead, how did you connect your battery directly to your field coil leads? 

It's getting dark and late so I should probably wait on this until tomorrow. X is getting highly agitated at the Savage, the bugger had its carbs cleaned and is now wetting its spark plug and refusing to start.  Would be nice having one bike fully functional, anyway.

[Pinhead]

Pinhead, how did you connect your battery directly to your field coil leads? 

Looking at the attached picture, the "Generator Coupler" is the wire bundle that you'll want to test. The bottom row should be 3 wires (yellow) and the top row is 2 wires (not sure what color...). The top row of wires (2 wires) are your field coil leads. I pulled them out of the coupler and ran a couple of extension wires straight to the battery terminals.

[eurban]

Fully charged battery should read out at 12.6 volts.  How come "just sitting, not running" the voltage was less than 12??  Was the battery "fully charged"?

The battery was 12.55 a few days ago.  Between starting it and messing with it, having the lights on etc and just idling it, it was around 11.9 or so.  When X tested the battery, it was at 11.9 before beginning. Disconnected the multimeter, started the bike, and got it warmed up a little and idling.  Reconnected the multimeter.  At idle (1250-1400 rpms) it read '11.9'  At 2000 it read the same.  At 3000 it read the same.  4 and 5k were the same as well.  She put the high beam on and it dropped to 11.8, but went back up to 11.9 again once she turned off the high beam.  Multimeter was connected to battery terminals. 

How should I interpret this, other than that it's a) not charging, obviously and b) kind of low, anyway?

Pinhead, how did you connect your battery directly to your field coil leads? 

It's getting dark and late so I should probably wait on this until tomorrow. X is getting highly agitated at the Savage, the bugger had its carbs cleaned and is now wetting its spark plug and refusing to start.  Would be nice having one bike fully functional, anyway.

Even on the best of days, the charging systems on our bikes is not up to the task of recharging a significantly (40-50%charge) discharged battery. The RPM voltage test is pretty much worthless with discharged battery. To perform a valid test you would need to start with a fully charged battery (literally 12.6 volts). . .That said, the fact that your battery is at a state of 50% after only a few days doesn't sound like good news.  Sounds like you have been putting it though a good amount of taxing conditions but didn't X also take it for a good spin? . . .If you follow Pin's testing procedure and or perform a V to RPM test just make sure you start with a good battery that is fully charged.

[tonycb650]

kits, dont be suprised if you have more than one charging problem. Ihad a bad reg/ rec and a bad rotor when i got my 650. this seems to be common on the 650.

[TwoTired]

Ok, the battery isn't being charged by the bike.

Two approaches:
One - measure the voltage on the black wire going to the R/R from the bike.  It should be whatever you read on the battery POS terminal.
Then read the voltage across the White and Black wires going to the alternator.
This must be done with everything connected, as the R/R distributes power to the alternator commensurate with the state of charge of the battery, the lower the battery state, the more voltage should appear across the White and Black wires.
If the R/R is not putting voltage on the White and Black wires when the battery is low, then the Regulator is bad.

The second approach is to place the the battery voltage directly on the White and black wires with external wires.   Since you still need the yellow wires connected for this test, you have to extract the white and black terminals from the connector, in order to make the bypass connection.
Powering the White and Black wires direct from the battery should make the alternator be all it can be at whatever RPM you spin it, and charge the battery, showing a rise in voltage.  Charging a battery takes time so don't expect a depleted battery to attain full voltage right away. but when revving the motor you should see a definite rising voltage trend.

I guess there is a third way, of simply replacing the R/R.

But, you have yet to show a battery voltage that is actually at full charge.  So, it is possible you have a bad battery that is holding the voltage down. (Though the possibility seems remote.)

Cheers,

[martino1972]

well girl(with mister X)....

my offer still counts of compairing readings on the bikes.....just ask......


not today though,buddy of mine and me are going on a road trip.......yeehhhhaaaaaaaa.....

[Frankenkit]

Sooooo
I went over the bike this morning and found some things that may not have been connected quite right, so i  did all that after charging the battery.

Battery started at 12.9 right off the trickle charger.  Started bike, got it warm and idling.  At idle, it tests to 13.6v, at its highest point, 6k rpms, it was 14.8v.  With the highbeam at idle, it went down to 12.9v and slowly slipped down to 12.6v., then came right back up when I turned the bike to low beams again.  It seems like it should be charging now!

Martino, you make me laugh. Really. 

[martino1972]

Martino, you make me laugh. Really. 

you should see me when im in a GOOD mood...........

[martino1972]

oh,and when you decide to make yours into a bobber like mine...don't drive in the rain with that short rear fender.....
my ass got so wet from the water spraying up from the rear tire,i bet its rinkled now like a old granny..

[Frankenkit]

Wait til it dries 'n shrinks.  'Tightass' will have new meaning!
I don't think I'm going t'a bobber it any time soon... if I change anything, it'd probably be to just have a single seat on it, one of those leather hug-your-butt tractor seats or something... and a higher sissy bar, just to attach bags to. 

My project now is finding an '81 or 82 lens/reflector assy.  My bike didn't get "the love" so to speak, and got the sealed beam assy. while those years got actual halogen that I could theoretically put an h4 bulb into and call good. 
maybe LED dummy lights, too, but I'm not sure yet.



I got a present from MickX yesterday, too.  Sapphire blue nailpolish.  Ordinarily, that'd be one of those lousy gifts b/c I'm not allowed to wear nail polish at work (hospital) but it was great because I could color the red '650' in on the side covers with a blue that matches my flames.    It turned out great, too.   

After I get back from getting my car's brakes done, etc, I'm going to go for a ride, I think.  I deserve it.

[martino1972]

 
I got a present from MickX yesterday, too.  Sapphire blue nailpolish.  Ordinarily, that'd be one of those lousy gifts b/c I'm not allowed to wear nail polish at work (hospital) but it was great because I could color the red '650' in on the side covers with a blue that matches my flames.    It turned out great, too.   

your turning into a real bike mechanic already.....what ever stuff you see it's like"hmmm.....wonder if i can use that on the bike somehow.."

 

[eurban]

Sooooo
I went over the bike this morning and found some things that may not have been connected quite right, so i  did all that after charging the battery.

You're not going to get off that easily!  What things were not connected quite right??

[Frankenkit]

I am not at liberty to give out that kind of information.  Suffice it to say, I believe 9/10 of the problem was actually the glaze on the brushes/rotor, and the other 10th was dirty contacts.

[tonycb650]

If you do decide to go with a single seat and sissy bar, i wouldnt mind having first shot at buying the stock seat and grab bar from you. It could finance your new seat and sissy bar.

[Hush]

Usually your first guess is the right one, we humans don't trust our intuition (which is just learned information) enough.
As the alternator creates the power and the brushes are the weakest link near it, I'm not too suprised you found it to be that.
But exercises like that will delay the onset of Altzhiemers so keep streaching the grey matter Kits.

[Frankenkit]

Hey, Hush, are you having any problems with your fuel?  It seems like my petcock keeps choking off in 'on' and 'res'.     I wrote in another thread here about the problem... after having had my tank coated, now I'm somehow getting tons of grit and crap in my filter, and the petcock is clogged.  Any ideas on how to drain the gas so I can work on the petcock w/o wasting $12+ in gas? (or do you think I'm better off w/o it because somehow I have grit in my tank, even after a thorough coating....)  and further, any ideas on how to clean that stupid petcock? 

[tonycb650]

 Have you tried removing your gas cap, and then turning on the gas?

[Frankenkit]

I'll do that tomorrow morning... I'm in for the night.  I thought of that but didn't have my key on me.