Author Topic: Timing Light Woes  (Read 11624 times)

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Offline Gordon

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Re: Timing Light Woes
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2009, 09:11:14 AM »

Did not mean to Hijack the thread, just reading to make sure the timing light readings I was taking where meaningful, and I got to better understand something.   :)


Nothing wrong with it, especially since it was already a dead thread.  'Tis the nature of the forums.

Markcb750

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Re: Timing Light Woes
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2009, 10:16:42 AM »
Thought experiment:


Take a working CB750.  Remove plugs 1 and 4, then reconnect them to the spark plug wires.  Connect the bases of the two spark plugs with large wire.  Hold them in mid-air so that they're not touching the engine.  Turn on the bike and crank it over.

Do the plugs produce spark?

mystic_1

According to my thought above, no spark.

Went out and performed with old plugs, no spark, but spark as soon as I touch the engine.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Timing Light Woes
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2009, 02:20:14 PM »
Thought experiment:


Take a working CB750.  Remove plugs 1 and 4, then reconnect them to the spark plug wires.  Connect the bases of the two spark plugs with large wire.  Hold them in mid-air so that they're not touching the engine.  Turn on the bike and crank it over.

Do the plugs produce spark?

mystic_1

Yes, they will, if the test is performed carefully and properly.
You don't even need spark plugs just a simple gap will show visual confirmation.  Take the bare ends of the spark plug leads and hold them about 1/8 inch apart.  The ends will spark to each other without any "ground" reference in the secondary at all.  It just needs the mag field to change state.

Technically, "ground" is a misnomer for our bikes, as the bike is insulated from the earth by the rubber tires.
More technically, the engine/frame becomes the Battery negative terminal reference for the bike.

However, the secondary circuit of the ignition coils neither take nor deliver any energy to/from the battery through the negative reference during its operation.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Markcb750

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Re: Timing Light Woes
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2009, 04:59:56 PM »
Thought experiment:


Take a working CB750.  Remove plugs 1 and 4, then reconnect them to the spark plug wires.  Connect the bases of the two spark plugs with large wire.  Hold them in mid-air so that they're not touching the engine.  Turn on the bike and crank it over.

Do the plugs produce spark?

mystic_1



Yes, they will, if the test is performed carefully and properly.
You don't even need spark plugs just a simple gap will show visual confirmation.  Take the bare ends of the spark plug leads and hold them about 1/8 inch apart.  The ends will spark to each other without any "ground" reference in the secondary at all.  It just needs the mag field to change state.

Technically, "ground" is a misnomer for our bikes, as the bike is insulated from the earth by the rubber tires.
More technically, the engine/frame becomes the Battery negative terminal reference for the bike.

However, the secondary circuit of the ignition coils neither take nor deliver any energy to/from the battery through the negative reference during its operation.

Cheers,

A transformer will conduct exactly squat if the primary and secondary are not connected to a common neutral. You can have huge potential, but no conduction.

"technically" we could call the lower potential a Neutral, but the common description, "ground' is understood by most.


Think about it this way: The Energy, represented by the spark, comes from the battery, it is not created by any magic, AC or DC. If no connection is made across both terminals of the battery, no energy can be obtained. 




cheers,


Offline TwoTired

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Re: Timing Light Woes
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2009, 11:49:54 PM »
You're right, it not magic.  It's mostly physics and electrons obeying the rules.  Since explaining in print is getting us nowhere, I made a little demonstration video to illustrate what I've been saying.  Hope it helps.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline oldbiker

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Re: Timing Light Woes
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2009, 01:34:08 AM »
TT, I commend you on your patience. You obviously took time to set up your demonstration to show that a spark is generated in the secondary circuit of the coil without any physical connection between primary and secondary or between battery and secondary. Congratulations, I have refrained from commenting in certain electrical threads because after 20 years lecturing at University on Electrical Engineering I learnt that explaining electrical phenomena to anyone who does not have a reasonable grounding in the basics of electricity is a waste of time. John Baker M.Sc. (I.T. and electronics.)

Markcb750

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Re: Timing Light Woes
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2009, 03:49:37 AM »
You're right, it not magic.  It's mostly physics and electrons obeying the rules.  Since explaining in print is getting us nowhere, I made a little demonstration video to illustrate what I've been saying.  Hope it helps.


Is there some difference between aircraft coils and our coils? 

The experiment I conducted would not spark;

Connected with a wire, no spark.

just hanging there, no spark

physically connected, no spark.

As soon I held the plug against the head...spark

Must be magic.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 02:00:47 PM by Markcb750 »

Markcb750

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Re: Timing Light Woes
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2009, 05:38:49 AM »
Reconnected with different spark plugs.

Spark...  :o


Live and learn.


Mark
BSME, SA

Markcb750

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Re: Timing Light Woes
« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2009, 02:44:34 PM »
BTW, is that really a film you just made?

So I am not such a disappointment to old English electronics professors ::)

I re-read the Wikipedia write up about ignitions which has this discussion about the secondary and primary being connected to the battery.


The ignition coil consists of two transformer windings sharing a common magnetic core -- the primary and secondary windings. An alternating current in the primary induces alternating magnetic field in the coil's core. Because the ignition coil's secondary has far more windings than the primary, the coil is a step-up transformer which induces a much higher voltage across the secondary windings. For an ignition coil, one end of windings of both the primary and secondary are connected together. This common point is connected to the battery (usually through a current-limiting resistor). The other end of the primary is connected to the points within the distributor. The other end of the secondary is connected, via the distributor cap and rotor, to the spark plugs.

I guess I am misinterpreting this difference between the Honda ignition and an automotive coil circuit as to how each delivers spark.  I know my memory is not perfect, but I know I had to touch a plug to the exhaust header to insure I had spark on my '65 Ford V8. Never tried pulling two plugs and connecting a wire between them.

Was interesting to read the part about what the condenser does in a point controlled system.



Offline TwoTired

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Re: Timing Light Woes
« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2009, 03:57:26 PM »
BTW, is that really a film you just made?
Yes, made it yesterday.  It's my very first film, actually.  Fairly challenging to do camera work, the narration, and provide the actions all at the same time.  I need work/practice/improvement in all areas.  But, I'm proud to announce I never once received an electrical shock...or dropped the camera. ;D  Perhaps I still have the attention priorities in the right order. :)

I re-read the Wikipedia write up about ignitions which has this discussion about the secondary and primary being connected to the battery.

The ignition coil consists of two transformer windings sharing a common magnetic core -- the primary and secondary windings. An alternating current in the primary induces alternating magnetic field in the coil's core. Because the ignition coil's secondary has far more windings than the primary, the coil is a step-up transformer which induces a much higher voltage across the secondary windings. For an ignition coil, one end of windings of both the primary and secondary are connected together. This common point is connected to the battery (usually through a current-limiting resistor). The other end of the primary is connected to the points within the distributor. The other end of the secondary is connected, via the distributor cap and rotor, to the spark plugs.

There are nearly endless variations on how circuits can be arranged and work, even if they do the same basic end functions.

The coil in the Wiki description is a single ended coil.  While basically the same construction internally, the wire terminations of the two internal coils are different.  Were you to use that style of coil on the SOHC4, you'd need 4 of them, or have a spark distributor system as found in the automotive world.   Some single ended coils may have only two obvious connections; power in to the primary, (switched by the points), and the wire to the spark plug.  The other two connections can be the metal case of the coils, connected internal to both primary and secondary windings, where the metal body is electrically attached to the engine block.  While the primary of the coil needs to attach to both battery terminals, the secondary does not.  Energy generated within the secondary only needs a current path between the two output connections. The spark plug base needs only an electrical connection to the coil body for the circuit to complete.  An added connection to a battery terminal is irrelevant, but convenient from a mechanical arrangement perspective. 

 The SOHC4 coils have independent connections for all four wire leads.  The primary gets power from the battery, and the points interrupt the primary current between coil and the battery neg terminal, which out of convenience, is the engine block.
The SOHC4 coil output leads are actually both ends of the secondary coil.  Those ends have to be connected together for current to flow in the secondary coil.  This path is completed by the wires, the spark plugs, the plasma in the spark gap, and the cylinder head.  Again, the cylinder block is connected to the battery neg terminal out of mechanical convenience, but this connection is irrelevant to the coil secondary function of producing spark. 

I guess I am misinterpreting this difference between the Honda ignition and an automotive coil circuit as to how each delivers spark.  I know my memory is not perfect, but I know I had to touch a plug to the exhaust header to insure I had spark on my '65 Ford V8. Never tried pulling two plugs and connecting a wire between them.
That wouldn't have worked on the Ford, as you would not have had a connection back to the other end of the secondary winding of the coil.  The exhaust manifold did, probably through the engine block/intake manifold, or some-such path.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Timing Light Woes
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2009, 04:05:43 PM »
TT, I commend you on your patience. You obviously took time to set up your demonstration to show that a spark is generated in the secondary circuit of the coil without any physical connection between primary and secondary or between battery and secondary. Congratulations, I have refrained from commenting in certain electrical threads because after 20 years lecturing at University on Electrical Engineering I learnt that explaining electrical phenomena to anyone who does not have a reasonable grounding in the basics of electricity is a waste of time. John Baker M.Sc. (I.T. and electronics.)

Thanks, John.

It's easier to be patient when there is a willingness to learn.

Be well,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.