Author Topic: Top End Rebuild Break In **UPDATE** HELP!!!  (Read 4886 times)

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Offline JAG

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Top End Rebuild Break In **UPDATE** HELP!!!
« on: July 23, 2008, 07:43:44 PM »
Anyone have any methods for breaking in an engine after top end rebuild? I changed all the gaskets. Had the cylinders honed within the factory spec. New Rings. And had everything Plastic-blasted..

I just got her to kick over and seems like everything is in order. I do have some smoke coming off the engine, but I believe that is due to the paint I put on it, without baking it on first. Other than that I see no leaks anywhere. (Whew) This has been a nerve racking yet learning experience for this novice.

I thought about going to 20w50, I decided to try and stick with the 10w40 to see how my oil pressure is going to do.

So do you run it hard? Take it easy? Change the oil and filter after a few hundred miles? What?

Does this consider the engine a start from scratch 0 mile engine? Do I need to keep up with the odometer differently now?

Just random questions from a newbie.

Thanks guys. And thanks again for all yalls help in the past. Hopefully I'll be able to enjoy the bike now that hopefully I'll have oil pressure! ;)

JAG
« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 11:03:45 AM by JAG »
Cafe Racing is mainly a matter of taste. It is an atavistic mentality, a peculiar mix of low style, high speed, pure dumbness, and overweening commitment to the Cafe Life and all its dangerous pleasures. I am a Cafe Racer myself, on some days - and it is one of my finest addictions. ~H. S. Thompson~

Offline scondon

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Re: Top End Rebuild Break In
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2008, 08:00:22 PM »
 Quite a few good threads covering this subject, just can't figure what the best words to enter in search to bring them up. "new engine" brings up 12 pages worth, might be in there.

   Don't let the smoke get to ya, or the sound of every valve and gear tooth that is amplified a thousand times over when you fire that motor up for the first time. You did your homework and gave it your best and here's where it all comes together. Good luck :)
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Offline JAG

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Re: Top End Rebuild Break In
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2008, 08:33:34 PM »
Thanks for the words of wisdom Scondon, they're much appreciated..

I did try a few different searches, and didn't come up with anything too concrete..

I remember reading a few differents ones, but can't seem to find them now.
Cafe Racing is mainly a matter of taste. It is an atavistic mentality, a peculiar mix of low style, high speed, pure dumbness, and overweening commitment to the Cafe Life and all its dangerous pleasures. I am a Cafe Racer myself, on some days - and it is one of my finest addictions. ~H. S. Thompson~

Offline Sporkfly

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Re: Top End Rebuild Break In
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2008, 08:43:07 PM »
I've heard of a few people that swear by this:

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
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Offline scondon

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Re: Top End Rebuild Break In
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2008, 08:49:32 PM »
Thanks for the words of wisdom Scondon, they're much appreciated..

I did try a few different searches, and didn't come up with anything too concrete..

I remember reading a few differents ones, but can't seem to find them now.
 

I'll see if I can dig a few up, so much easier for me than retyping stuff at the moment. Plus you get the wisdom of the "real" engine guys too ;) ;D

Short opinion:

10/40wt oil- full dino though some semi-synth claim to be good for break-in(HP4)

Run engine on stand to warm up, throttle blips OK just don't go crazy

Ride for 20 miles at varying rpm to heat motor up, then run hard through first three gears(sprint).

Stay off roads that have you steady at rpm for first 200 miles or so. Rev up, engine break down, do the herky jerky, just keep the rpms varied and don't lug the engine at rpm's under 3000.

Change oil/filter at 50-100 miles to remove any assembly lube. Again at 500 if your OC like me ;)
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Offline JAG

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Re: Top End Rebuild Break In
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2008, 09:03:39 PM »
Sounds good. I did use the old oil filter. From what I hear, it helps catch all the loose ends, so to speak, better than a new one. Of course my old filter barely had 100 miles on it. Still better than new, I suppose..

I'm seeing around the forum. change filter and oil every 50-100-200-500-1000- miles. Then after that every 2000 miles or every 6 months which ever comes first.

Never maintain constant rpms. I.E.- no highway driving.. Luckily around here, I live around nothing but curvy roads, so I should be good.

Never go over 7000rpms until you reach past 500 miles? Is that correct?

Oh and change spark plugs and do your fine tuning (carb sync-which requires constant rpm) after 500 miles...

How's that sound?
Cafe Racing is mainly a matter of taste. It is an atavistic mentality, a peculiar mix of low style, high speed, pure dumbness, and overweening commitment to the Cafe Life and all its dangerous pleasures. I am a Cafe Racer myself, on some days - and it is one of my finest addictions. ~H. S. Thompson~

Offline JAG

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Re: Top End Rebuild Break In
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2008, 09:18:45 PM »
The website seems reputable enough.. Although there are contradictions between what I see on here and what is on that website..

On the street, it says, accel. and deaccel. hard for proper seating of the rings. And change oil after 20 miles.

From what I understand, or what I've read on here, don't exceed 7Krpms, and don't continue a constant rpm for a long period of time.

So should I take it under my own discretion and possibly do a little bit of both? Can you really achieve better performance from your engine with a proper break in? -( such that is stated on that website.)-

I have only had the engine turned over twice, for just a few short minutes just in the garage to see if it would even fire, and before I go buttoning everything else back up.
So hopefully I haven't screwed anything up.

Now the wheels are turning... ???
Cafe Racing is mainly a matter of taste. It is an atavistic mentality, a peculiar mix of low style, high speed, pure dumbness, and overweening commitment to the Cafe Life and all its dangerous pleasures. I am a Cafe Racer myself, on some days - and it is one of my finest addictions. ~H. S. Thompson~

Offline scondon

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Re: Top End Rebuild Break In
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2008, 09:34:02 PM »
 I ran the crap out of mine as soon as I could. I hit 8500rpm in the initial run through 1,2,3. I was over 7000 quite a bit in the first 500 miles but used 7000rpm as my "time to cool it" meter. Hard to "expand" the rings without hitting the throttle ;) Changed the oil first time as soon as I could 'cause I used a lot of assembly lube and wanted it gone. Changed it again soon after to "rinse out" anything left. I have no data that proves this is better than any other method, but the engine didn't blow up and I stopped losing oil during combustion around 300-500 miles. Not a stock motor and not giving advice.
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Offline ekim98

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Re: Top End Rebuild Break In
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2008, 09:49:38 PM »
I could be wrong but I always heard that you break them in the way you plan on running them. Thats how I have always done it, after the first 50 to 100 miles, then let her rip. These bikes were made to rev so I let them rev.
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Offline JAG

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Re: Top End Rebuild Break In
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2008, 03:31:30 AM »
..bump..

Just tryin to get more input. ;)
Cafe Racing is mainly a matter of taste. It is an atavistic mentality, a peculiar mix of low style, high speed, pure dumbness, and overweening commitment to the Cafe Life and all its dangerous pleasures. I am a Cafe Racer myself, on some days - and it is one of my finest addictions. ~H. S. Thompson~

Offline super pasty white guy

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Re: Top End Rebuild Break In
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2008, 04:23:59 AM »
Fruit don't talk, fruit just listens... and waits.

Offline hymodyne

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Re: Top End Rebuild Break In
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2008, 04:39:17 AM »
I'm watching all of this closely, as a break in period for new pistons, rings and re-honed sleeves is in my near future.

It seems that some of my problem with the original set of pistons and sleeves I put in about a year and a half ago was probably the fact that I was running rotella synthetic, which, combined with low break-in rpms, contributed to my rings never seating and my bike always burning oil. My oil pan is empty now, so I plan to fill her with dino oil for break in and change the filter and switch back to synthetic after about 100 miles and change the filter again.

hym
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Offline RRRToolSolutions

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Re: Top End Rebuild Break In
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2008, 04:44:29 AM »
Ok, my $02 -

1) You have to build up pressure in the cylinders so the rings are forced to the walls. The spring pressure of the rings themselves definitely won't do this. You need some full-throttle pulls where combustion is at it's highest pressure - this doesn't mean you have to go flat-out, you can do this in the first few gears as Sean suggested. You also don't have to go to red line. Normally peak torque output is somewhere near 2/3 of the rev range. You want to reach that peak torque with the throttle under full load several times over the first 50 miles. Peak torque is not a coincidence - it is where the engine reaches it's maximum volumetric effeciency - thus generating the maximum force on the crank and generates the most pressure to push/force those rings out against the cylinder walls.
2) I completely disagree with running it hard full-time. You need to generate "heat cycles" - building heat, then allowing a relaxed pace, build heat, then relax several times so the parts "wear in". Maximum heat full-time will cause maximum expansion of parts and if the tolerances are too tight, then you could expand before break-in to the point of siezure or at minimum - scoring. It depends on the tolerances you left in the ring gap - too tight and too hot - she is going to score or seize, too loose and it won't matter.

On a street engine, I like to build them to minimum tolerances so I can have long wear and durability. I also enjoy the break-in period because I'm making it mine. As long as you pull to max torque and load several time during break-in, you're going to seat those rings and not risk scoring or seizure.

Here is an example of a 900 Kawasaki I recently bought with 17,500 or so miles. It was not broke-in correctly. It's owner never opened the throttle in the first couple of thousand miles. He never let the engine get to full load and torque rpm - so, the rings never got pushed out to the walls while they were "sharp" and they became smooth/rounded (glazed)and never seated in the cylinders. You can still see the cross-hatch pattern. This engine had absolutely "0" zero wear, did not use oil, but the compression was only 125 - all because the rings and cylinder never consumated their marriage 32 years ago.

I also use only synthetic oils in every engine I own. Even my Snapper lawnmower has it. I won't go into that debate, but it all has to do with the flash-point temperatures conventional and synthetic oils turn to vapor and burn. Cylinder walls and piston bottoms constantly exceed the temps where oil turns to vapor/varnish.


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Gordon

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Offline JAG

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Re: Top End Rebuild Break In **UPDATE** HELP!!!
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2008, 11:03:01 AM »
Okay, so I get everything fastened down good.. Started her up, let it warm up a bit and took off..

It rode like sh**. Horrible hesitation all through the gears. Power was there but still a very jumpy ride. So I assumed it was the timing..

Got her back into the garage. Started adjusting points. Set gap instead of .012. I went to .014. Then I went to set the timing. As I am rotating the back plate... KABOOM. The went a hellaious back fire through the exhaust..

WTF. is going on here, and what do I wrong? What is there to do to fix it?

I'm going to go back and finish the timing. And start it up to see what it does. This is such a crucial time in the engine's life, I really don't want to screw it up because of something minor..

Any help greatly appreciated :-[
Cafe Racing is mainly a matter of taste. It is an atavistic mentality, a peculiar mix of low style, high speed, pure dumbness, and overweening commitment to the Cafe Life and all its dangerous pleasures. I am a Cafe Racer myself, on some days - and it is one of my finest addictions. ~H. S. Thompson~

Offline JAG

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Re: Top End Rebuild Break In **UPDATE** HELP!!!
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2008, 11:15:30 AM »
The timing didn't change anything.

The only other thing I know to check is the spark.

Cafe Racing is mainly a matter of taste. It is an atavistic mentality, a peculiar mix of low style, high speed, pure dumbness, and overweening commitment to the Cafe Life and all its dangerous pleasures. I am a Cafe Racer myself, on some days - and it is one of my finest addictions. ~H. S. Thompson~

Offline scondon

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Re: Top End Rebuild Break In **UPDATE** HELP!!!
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2008, 11:19:45 AM »
 Turn the key or run switch off when spinning the timing plate. That backfire was just a lot of unburnt fuel igniting when the plug fired during your hand rotation.

  Relax a bit during this crucial period is the only advice I've got. Observe, measure, have a smoke or sip 'o tea, then act. Repeat. Lots of little things can be overlooked during assembly and unless your really good/lucky the bike will need to be coaxed into a good operating state. And don't mind the smoke, at least for a while ;) :)
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Offline scondon

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Re: Top End Rebuild Break In **UPDATE** HELP!!!
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2008, 11:25:14 AM »
cold pipes will help determine which cylinders are causing a fuss. If your carbs sat untouched for a long time during rebuild have a peek at the jets. Fuel/air/spark in the right amounts at the right time. I don't know how extensive your rebuild was but I'm sure you had your tools on all systems that supply these and would have a better idea of what might be causing your woes than anyone else. Pause, reflect :)
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Offline JAG

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Re: Top End Rebuild Break In **UPDATE** HELP!!!
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2008, 11:32:10 AM »
Thanks for the reply Scondon. After initial start up, I checked the exhaust, and all were very hot, and when I checked the spark plugs ( atleast 1 and 4 ) they confirmed the temperature was accurate. So I know all cylinders are firing, and possibly at a leaner state that what would be considered good.

I'm glad to know that, the back fire was just unburnt fuel. Whew...

The carbs sat for about 10 days, but I'll have a go at them to see if there are indeed any blockages.

The rebuild only consisted of new gaskets, new piston rings and cylinders being honed.
Cafe Racing is mainly a matter of taste. It is an atavistic mentality, a peculiar mix of low style, high speed, pure dumbness, and overweening commitment to the Cafe Life and all its dangerous pleasures. I am a Cafe Racer myself, on some days - and it is one of my finest addictions. ~H. S. Thompson~

Offline scondon

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Re: Top End Rebuild Break In **UPDATE** HELP!!!
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2008, 11:51:02 AM »
 Don't forget to check for air leaks at the rubber boots and exhaust leaks at the gaskets. Would certainly add to lean/hot condition on one or more cylinder. Double check the valve gaps you set when installing the cam. I can think of a few more things that have gone whacky when I've assembled my bikes ;) :)
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Offline JAG

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Re: Top End Rebuild Break In **UPDATE** HELP!!!
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2008, 12:26:16 PM »
Thanks again for the replies..

Check main and slow jet from carbs: You can see daylight clearly through every orfice.

Check all exhaust, no leaks there, and also re-torqued down.

squirted WD-40, around intake boots, no change in idle, and also tried and tightening them up more, but they were already buttoned down good..

Started it up, still alot of hesitation and sputtering going on, nothing smooth about it. I didn't leave it running long for the sake of set the rings wrong. I'd atleast like to get it out and have it run, somewhat good so I can therefore break it in, and sync the carbs suffiently..

Cafe Racing is mainly a matter of taste. It is an atavistic mentality, a peculiar mix of low style, high speed, pure dumbness, and overweening commitment to the Cafe Life and all its dangerous pleasures. I am a Cafe Racer myself, on some days - and it is one of my finest addictions. ~H. S. Thompson~

Offline scondon

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Re: Top End Rebuild Break In **UPDATE** HELP!!!
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2008, 12:39:26 PM »
..... and sync the carbs suffiently..

   Another good thing to check since your cylinder "draw" has most likely changed. Keep going down the list. There are a number of minor combinations that can result in major symptoms. Holding the good thought that everything is a minor step away ;) :)
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Offline bunghole

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Re: Top End Rebuild Break In **UPDATE** HELP!!!
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2008, 02:51:03 PM »
Just chiming in to watch as I'll be in the same shoes later in the summer (hopefully).
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Offline JAG

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Re: Top End Rebuild Break In **UPDATE** HELP!!!
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2008, 04:16:07 PM »
Something else that I am thinking that might be causing thuis horrible hesitation is the AC Generator that I have from this donor engine..

It's quite rusty, I lightly went around it with some sand paper before assembly, but could it be causing the horrible uneven stride and hesitation I am having?
Cafe Racing is mainly a matter of taste. It is an atavistic mentality, a peculiar mix of low style, high speed, pure dumbness, and overweening commitment to the Cafe Life and all its dangerous pleasures. I am a Cafe Racer myself, on some days - and it is one of my finest addictions. ~H. S. Thompson~

Offline JAG

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Re: Top End Rebuild Break In **UPDATE** HELP!!!
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2008, 04:18:33 PM »
Also I never messed with the valves. I just did the gasoline test in the "bowls" to see if it was leaking through, and it wasn't, ensuring that it was getting a proper seal, and therefore I didn't think I needed to mess with them.

When adjustimg the valve tappets. I did it accordingly to spec via the honda shop manual. And there is no clacking or un necessary noise through them now.
Cafe Racing is mainly a matter of taste. It is an atavistic mentality, a peculiar mix of low style, high speed, pure dumbness, and overweening commitment to the Cafe Life and all its dangerous pleasures. I am a Cafe Racer myself, on some days - and it is one of my finest addictions. ~H. S. Thompson~

Offline MRieck

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Re: Top End Rebuild Break In **UPDATE** HELP!!!
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2008, 05:57:34 PM »
Something else that I am thinking that might be causing thuis horrible hesitation is the AC Generator that I have from this donor engine..

It's quite rusty, I lightly went around it with some sand paper before assembly, but could it be causing the horrible uneven stride and hesitation I am having?
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