Topic: Top End Rebuild Break In **UPDATE** HELP!!!

[JAG]

but is that a reason why it isn't running well? Does it even have anything to do with the engine running at all?

I thought I would mess with the slide height since I knew it would have to be sync'ed later. It smelled awfully rich inside the garage so I thought that maybe it was getting to much gas.

Now that I messes with it, where it ran like ass before, it won't even run now.

Time to drink some beers and reflect...

[martino1972]

double check your timing chain ,it might have got a tooth of timing while installing..

[JAG]

How would I know the difference?? I lined up the marks perfectly on the cam and the the 'T' on the points. after that I slapped the chain on the sprocket and bolted her up to the cam.

How could you tell the difference if it's a tooth off or not? That doesn't make much sense to me. The sprocket is perfectly round like a gear. there's no adjustment in the chain.. How could a person possibly get the chain on there wrong?

[Sporkfly]

How would I know the difference?? I lined up the marks perfectly on the cam and the the 'T' on the points. after that I slapped the chain on the sprocket and bolted her up to the cam.

How could you tell the difference if it's a tooth off or not? That doesn't make much sense to me. The sprocket is perfectly round like a gear. there's no adjustment in the chain.. How could a person possibly get the chain on there wrong?

It actually ends up being VERY easy to do, even if you don't realize it at the time, slack in the chain when installing it could put it out a tooth. Since you have the cam chain tensioned now (I know, this is painful) open it back up and rotate it to the T mark to see if it lines up still.

[JAG]

I'll give it a shot tomorrow..  It is a pain to pull the engine back out just to get the valve cover back off..

Wish I didnt have to do that, but it has to be done..

I hope that this is the problem, and nothing to major.

Thanks again guys for the input.. Can't wait to get back out on the road.

[scondon]

     Tensioner pushes on one side of the chain. Slack is taken up on one side by the chain roller guide and tensioner while the other side goes tight in a straight line. Sprocket and cam rotate in the direction of tensioner as slack is taken up. Don't know if it's a full tooth's worth of slack though. Got to be a way of confirming "overall" cam timing without pulling the engine. Valves rise and fall with the cam and their movement can be seen by removing a tappet cover. Engine position can be seen at the points plate. Should be a way to determine valve timing within a "jumped tooths" worth.

 Tired, need rest, anyone want to save JAG from yanking his motor     If ya gotta yank it JAG then so be it. It goes a lot easier and a lot faster the second time around

[JAG]

Yeah I pulled the engine.. I can pull it off and pull it back on now, in no less then 30 minutes. I have it down to an exact science. Don't know if that's worth bragging about, need less to say, it can be done..

I pulled it and checked the 'T' 1-4 cylinders x in comparison to the notch in the cam. Now something I don't understand mechanically is how do you know when the piston is in TDC, when it does it twice? I had the 'T' 1-4 lined up at TDC with the notch perfectly, but when you turn it a full turn at the crank and when the 1-4 pistons get to TDC again the notch is completely turned 180 degess and is located at the bottom of the cam. So I assumed that maybe it was a complete 180 degrees off. So therefore I took off the chain from the cam, rotated it back 360 degrees at the crank to the next position of 'T' and at TDC. which allowed, what I assume, everything to be back together lined up..

Put the motor back together, back onto the frame, plugged everything up. Now I can't get it to fire. It turned over a few times, but it won't seem to catch.

As far as the aspect of whether or not the chain is a "tooth" off or not doesn't seem to fit within what I think it could be wrong. When I rotate the crank to the "T" 1-4 cylinders at each interval the two lines on either side of the cam, line up perfectly with the cam holder where it should be and the notch comes around each time on that "T" mark perfectly straight up on one turn and perfectly straight down the next.

I just don't seem to understand at which point the pistons are at top dead certain when they come up twice. Or maybe I'm just an idiot and possibly need this spelled out to me..

Any suggestions on why it won't fire? The spark plugs are new. It's definitely getting gas. Just seems like I definitely have it completely wrong within the timing of that spark and gas combo. Like it's putting out gas when it's not ready for the spark or something, hence the timing, but it's still not working..

 

[JAG]

Also got a wonderful oil leak coming out from the bottom of my clutch cover. There's like, what, 10-11 screws that go in there??  And there is like 4 different sizes that go in different areas. I had the same problem on the other engine. This one has a new gasket and I torqued the screws down good, but still got an oil leak. I probably have a screw in the wrong spot, but I have already rotated some around and it still hasn't changed.

Is there anyone with some sort of schematics, that show exactly what size screw goes where??

I'm about to throw some "form-a-gasket" on there, but it doesn't call for it, and I don't wanna do anything that wouldn't have been done from the factory.

Any suggestions there??

[scondon]

Now something I don't understand mechanically is how do you know when the piston is in TDC, when it does it twice? I had the 'T' 1-4 lined up at TDC with the notch perfectly, but when you turn it a full turn at the crank and when the 1-4 pistons get to TDC again the notch is completely turned 180 degess and is located at the bottom of the cam. So I assumed that maybe it was a complete 180 degrees off.

   As long as the cam is positioned with the marks level at the bearing holder gap, AND with the crank positioned at 1-4 "T" mark, then it doesn't matter if 1 or 4 piston is on compression stroke(cam key at 6 or 12 o'clock). Takes a bit to wrap ones head around this but the cam cannot be installed "180 degrees out". Coils are dual fire so spark is sent to both cylinders simultaneously, once on compression and once on exhaust. Reverse this and you still get spark on compression stroke.

 Bad explanation, but you get the picture.

As far as the aspect of whether or not the chain is a "tooth" off or not doesn't seem to fit within what I think it could be wrong. When I rotate the crank to the "T" 1-4 cylinders at each interval the two lines on either side of the cam, line up perfectly with the cam holder where it should be and the notch comes around each time on that "T" mark perfectly straight up on one turn and perfectly straight down the next.

Excellent

Any suggestions on why it won't fire? The spark plugs are new. It's definitely getting gas. Just seems like I definitely have it completely wrong within the timing of that spark and gas combo. Like it's putting out gas when it's not ready for the spark or something, hence the timing, but it's still not working..

 

 How about spark timing. Do you have the coils/ignition properly wired and plug leads freshened up?   Condensors/point gaps? I forget if your ignition/coils are stock or not

Also got a wonderful oil leak coming out from the bottom of my clutch cover. There's like, what, 10-11 screws that go in there??  And there is like 4 different sizes that go in different areas. I had the same problem on the other engine. This one has a new gasket and I torqued the screws down good, but still got an oil leak. I probably have a screw in the wrong spot, but I have already rotated some around and it still hasn't changed.

Is there anyone with some sort of schematics, that show exactly what size screw goes where??

I'm about to throw some "form-a-gasket" on there, but it doesn't call for it, and I don't wanna do anything that wouldn't have been done from the factory.

Any suggestions there??

 I use Gaskacinch on the engine cover gaskets, applied to both gasket and mating surface. Good stuff, not like silicone or other "gasket forming" products, just helps tack the gasket to the engine surfaces. Can get a bit tacky and may pull paper gaskets apart when the cover is removed so use at your discretion.

   Bolts are different lengths for different depth holes. When bolts are in their proper holes they all protrude from the cover surface about the same distance.

[JAG]

   As long as the cam is positioned with the marks level at the bearing holder gap, AND with the crank positioned at 1-4 "T" mark, then it doesn't matter if 1 or 4 piston is on compression stroke(cam key at 6 or 12 o'clock).

 Bad explanation, but you get the picture.

That's exactly what I was wondering... So I am good to go there.. Good Good.. An big Whew!!! If ya know what I mean, I was worried I would have to take it back out again.

 How about spark timing. Do you have the coils/ignition properly wired and plug leads freshened up?   Condensors/point gaps? I forget if your ignition/coils are stock or not

I have stock ignition coils... I am going to recheck the point gaps and timing again to see that everything is within sync. I don't have strobe light for the timing, but I do hook up the light and cross it for the points to check and see when the light goes out and measure that with it lined up on the "F" mark. When it goes out, I think that the advancement is within spec.

I am going to go ahead and check the ohms again on the coils to make sure they are getting ample amount of juice to them, but when I checked the spark on the plugs when turning it over I got a nice shiny blue spark running through, so I know the plugs are good. But just in case I'm going to go buy some more.. They are cheap, so it isn't a big deal to grab 'em.

Well you got me thinking about a few more ideas..

Since I adjusted the carbs thinking it wasn't getting fuel, I'm going to go ahead and bench seat them again so I atleast know that they'll all be the same level..

Atleast I'm getting it to 'cough' a few times, can't wait to get it to VaROOM next

Thanks again scondon.

[JAG]

Checked the gap. And it's still set at .014- middle of the line..

As far as the spark advancement. If this is it's rotation:

(______________)

I had it set at:

(__|___________)

Which I assume is retarded alot.

With the timing light again I played around with it till I got it to flicker go dimmer/brighter. And I locked it down at:

(__________|___)

Still wouldn't do nothing but cough a bit... Went to:

(___________|__) Or a few degrees more, wouldn't start, but gave it a few kicks of

the kick starter and then she started hitting!! But wouldn't
rev.. Sort of limping along, and then she died again.. Couldn't get her to do anything else before the battery started wearing down. Not sure what else to do. I can't be flooding it because I'm not twisting the throttle all crazy like.

I'll try some more tomorrow I suppose..

[Sporkfly]

Check the points, check the points and check them again I guess. Give the tappet clearances another check. Check that the exhaust gaskets are sealing and make sure you've got a good seal at the intakes. Is all the oil from the rebuild burned off? Carbs clean? Have you taken a multimeter to check the resistance at your coils?

[JAG]

Went and bought new spark plugs.. Fixed the oil leak around the clutch cover, and my fuel leak around the petcock ( It was missing a brass grommet or something on one side. I just put a screw big enough inside of it to stop the spewing ).

Started the bike on the first spin of the starter..  YAY. Seems like it was something easy after all.

Went around and did about a 5 miles loop, ran great, very responsive. Didn't go over 5K rpms. revved up through the gears a few times and then came back off it of, going back down through the gears, I hardly kept it at a even throttle/rpm (Very curvy roads around here..)

Got it back home, put the kick stand down, and saw oil dripping all down my chain. Seems like it is leaking oil around the front sproket connected to the engine.. I don't see any oil around anywhere else except for a line on the floor right under my chain..

If it isn't one thing it's another ya know...

Any ideas on this new freakin problem??

But at the very least the bike it running like a champ, however I can't break her in properly if I'm leakin oil..

JAG

[RRRToolSolutions]

Jag, did you close-off the automatic chain oiler? The inside/center of the sprocket shaft is a small bolt and rubber stopper. It is designed to let oil out onto the chain for lubrication. It's adjustable and will flow a lot to nothing - depending on setting.
This would be covered in the service/shop manual.


Regards,
Gordon

[scondon]

Hell yes!! Love a good ending

[JAG]

Okay Gordon I'll check out the manual and see what it says..  Hopefully it is an easy fix like that..

And thanks again Scondon and all the other guys for all your patience and help and advice!!!

[JAG]

Well I screwed in the adjustment screw as far as it would go ( it was hard to turn ), until it broke off.. I took it completely out and replaced it with the other one I had from the bottom half of the other engine. It moved more freely , and I assumed the rubber grommet of a thing wasn't as bad as the other one..  Worked like a charm no more oil spewing out on that side.

But when I got home this evening, the right side of the tire was wet, as well as the front half ( where it comes to together to make the arch ) of the swingarm and the main stand was soaked with oil. The chain and left side of the rear tire is just as wet as when I fixed the problem of the over oiling of the chain but the right side is and everything else I just mentioned is still drenched..

The engine case itself is freshly painted, so I can look around the underside and backward section of the engine and see no oil anywhere dripping, say, from a loose bolt, or drain plug, etc.

I'm not burning any oil because there is no smoke.. The inside of the headers only have the usual soot accumulation. So I haven't the slightest where it is coming from.

I almost have this whoop.. Any suggestions to latter?

Thanks again!!

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

Check the breather tube.

[scondon]

Check the breather tube.

    Give that man a dollar    Not sure how the crankcase breather connects to the oil tank on your bike but would bet money that's it. Place a side bet on anything else connected to the oil tank      How much oil did you put in JAG?

[JAG]

I'll give him five if that's what it is..

I put in the usual 3 quarts, and what ever else it needed as it was spewing out during my escapades..

Now there are a few breather tubes around the engine, but I assume you mean the one's connected to the oil tank itself..  If it needed some run off, I don't know why it would due to the fact I never really overfilled the tank..

But I'll check to see if those tubes are connected properly in a.m. when I have some sunshine on my project.

Again if that is the case, "breather tubes connecting to the tank", how would I figure out how to stop it's pesty leakage, if I haven't overfilled the tank?

The only thing I know that connects to the oil tank to the crankcase is the two oil lines feeding it's blood to the engine. I know of one breather tube from the oil tank that runs down, may be more, so correct me if I'm wrong. If the breather tube is blowing out oil everywhere, and if it was connected correctly, it would have to hiccup it out, cause I never fill the oil more than half up on the "etches" on the dipstick..

I'll check her out, like I said, in the a.m.

So far everything has been easy to fix... Hopefully that's another easy fix as well..

You'd think a man going to school for Aerospace/Aeronautical Engineering could figure this stuff out!  All the math I know, doesn't make up for the common sense I don't have I suppose!

Thanks again guys..

[scondon]

   I'm sure that your oil tank differs from the one in my F2 so I'm not sure of exact routing for your bike. There are two "breathers" on the engine, one up by the cam and one in the rear down by your swingarm. If the breather in the rear is not connected to anything it will blow oil from the cranckase towards the swingarm and rear wheel. On my F2 oil tank the overflow is connected to this rear breather so that overflow from the tank is sent to the crankcase, and any hot gas or spitting oil from the crankcase can travel up to the oil tank.

      In my case, oil on the rear wheel/swingarm has been the result of this connection popping loose, or the cloth jacketed rubber feed/return lines to the engine developing cracks, or me forgetting to fully tighten the cap or drain plug on the oil tank. Too much oil in the system will cause any of these to gush profusely. If oil can leak I've found a way to help it

[JAG]

Well as I imagined, it was an easy fix. Popped the breather tube onto the nipple located on the crankcase, took her for a spin, and for the first time in 6 months ( entirety of this rebuild ) there are no more oil leaks anywhere..

I feel much better pulling up and parking in public when I don't have to come back to a nice puddle on the ground when I get back. Especially when there are people huddled around the bike checking it out, and the first thing they say is, "Nice looking bike, but it looks like you have an oil leak..." 

Thanks for all yalls help. Couldn't have done it w/o ya.

[hymodyne]

...you mean there's hope for me yet??

hym

[JAG]

...you mean there's hope for me yet??

hym

I would certainly think soo!! Is there any reason there wouldn't be hope??

I'm about to do my first oil change at 50 miles, this afternoon. The past 50 miles has consisted of me going up and down through the gears, never going past 5K rpms. Sometimes hard sometimes not, but never maintaining a consist rpm/mph for a long period of time. Everywhere around me is nothing but good curvy country roads, so I basically road it like I normally would, but like I said never going past 5K rpms. I also did this in 10 mile spurts. ( not really intentionally, just happened that way ) I'd ride around, come back and check things out, let it cool, and do it again.


I have a few random questions to ask...

First off, I'll start off by saying I have spent the last two hours reading multiple posts and endless pages concerning oil/engine temps. I'd love to get an IR or laser temp gauge to accurate figure out the temperature of my oil and engine. I'm going to try and use the good ol'turkey temp gauge (Whatever you use to find out if your turkey is done all the way through) to figure it out I suppose.. Seems kinda silly
 
I have seen where oil can go from 130-210 degrees F., and that be okay and well into the norm of operation, but has anyone seen there oil smoke, inside the oil tank, after a relatively good/hard run (Meaning going through the gears) ? I tend to always check my oil level after a run to make sure I'm not losing any.

Next question? What exactly is a "plug chop". I've seen this everywhere on this forum, but never explained as to: What it's for, and How to do it.

Has anyone ever successfully gotten the oil out of the oil tank via the drain plug ( not the oil pan ) without getting it on everything including the floor, exhaust, frame, etc.? Is there something I am missing?

Also going back to engine/oil temps, could this also be a good indication of lean/rich mixture? To me the engine is running hot, but it's also maxing out around 90 in Nashville. I have yet to sync the carbs. They are merely bench set. I wanted to make sure the break in period was going to run smoothly before I allowed it to sit at one rpm, for any consistant period of time ( anal, I know ). And the Idle (Air?) Mixture Screws are set 1/2 a turn out.. I suppose my question is, how do I "richen" the mixture up, as so to make sure I am not going to put any excessive wear onto the engine during this critcal time..

**EDIT** I am also running pods ( paper filiment I presume ) with 105 mains, needle position is in the middle ( factory spec )

Sorry for all the blab, and questions; Research will do that to ya.

[scondon]

 At work so "in depth" answers will come later.

   I would set 6000+rpm as the high rev point. 5000rpm is midpoint on these engines, good for cruising. Don't be afraid to rev past this during break-in. My opinion only.

      Smoke/vapor in the oil tank is normal on my bikes but they run a bit hot(256F oil temp after highway ride in Summer heat). Normal on a stock bike too if you spend much time at stoplights after a spirited ride.

      Quite a few threads with details on plug chop. Did you try searching it? Will try and dig up a link later

     Funnel with a large drain hole, held in place under the oil tank by a small bungie chord or zip-tie. Dropless draining of tank

    1/2 turn out on air screws is "rich" setting. With pods you will most likely want to raise needles and increase main jet(105 is the smallest MJ used in the 750's, think 110 or higher). Should drop your oil temps down a bit. I would expect your bike to be running hot with your current set-up.