Author Topic: Rebuild for Dummies Redux - v2.0, Mulligan (Read 62406 times)

goon 1492 · « **Reply #75 on:** March 24, 2009, 01:57:58 PM »

Its getting there, The adjustment I meant was the screw with the spring on it. It will adjust the drag, line up the clearence and how much the pads rub when the brakes aren't applied. I know TT or MCRider can explain that better and hopefully I didn't say it wrong, but it will keep the pads from touching the rotor when not in use and I would imagine if they were too tight it would cause a binding action. I know old mopars had that problem and would not retract the pads back enough when the brakes aren't applied and it always caused warping....
If I am wrong please correct me MCRider or TT.

MCRider · « **Reply #76 on:** March 24, 2009, 02:20:02 PM »

Quote from: goon 1492 on March 24, 2009, 01:57:58 PM

Its getting there, The adjustment I meant was the screw with the spring on it. It will adjust the drag, line up the clearence and how much the pads rub when the brakes aren't applied. I know TT or MCRider can explain that better and hopefully I didn't say it wrong, but it will keep the pads from touching the rotor when not in use and I would imagine if they were too tight it would cause a binding action. I know old mopars had that problem and would not retract the pads back enough when the brakes aren't applied and it always caused warping....
If I am wrong please correct me MCRider or TT.

Yeah you got it pretty much right. There's the "A" pad that has the fluid behind it. It is self-adjusting, providing everything is working and not mucked up. It retracts from the disc when the master cylinder lever is released, pretty much by the flexibility of the ORing in the caliper.

The "B" pad or slave pad is drawn into use by the A pad and withdraws from use by the spring and the adjuster keeps it from going too far away. The clearances are very small, 4 thou I think is right.

Newer brakes often have fluid behind both pads, 2 "A" pads as it were and so are both self adjusting.

And everything in between.

ev0lve · « **Reply #77 on:** March 24, 2009, 04:46:45 PM »

The forum really needs a lightbulb emoticon of some kind. This'll do.

I bet you're absolutely right given that I don't have them installed! Learning the hard way appears to just be how I do it.

Edit: I took out the question about how to measure

On the continuing duh front

Hondaman sez:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=42514.msg439900#msg439900

Quote

adjust the space between the pad and the disc (with the adjuster screw) for the required .004"-.008" clearance

So maybe it'll be easy

Thanks a bunch guys! Now the week just needs to get over with so I can get back on it. Again.

MCRider · « **Reply #78 on:** March 24, 2009, 05:30:24 PM »

As the A pad withdraws back into its shell, as the brake lever is being released, the spring over adjuster bolt is pushing the B pad away from the disk. at full relax, the A pad should be very lightly touching the disk, just enough to make a shoosh sound but NOT enough to offer any resistance to the wheel turning.

The B pad, you should be able to slip a 4 thou feeler gauge between it and the disc. AS you bump down the road, the A pad may withdraw another thou or 2. The more clearance the B pad has, the further you'll have to squeeze the brake lever to get the 2 pads to clamp together on the disc. If its too far away, turn the adjuster bolt. As the B pad wears, you'll need to adjst the bolt. If you figure the B pad will likely wear at least 40thou in its lifetime, about 1mm. You can see you'll need to adjust it every so often.

ev0lve · « **Reply #79 on:** March 24, 2009, 05:33:32 PM »

For my purposes of just getting it to work I didn't realize the adjuster was so critical so I left them off during the bleed. I'll bet (assuming I actually do have the geometry of the caliper to disk right) that dropping them in there and adjusting as you say solves it.

So. Close. To. Rideable.

MCRider · « **Reply #80 on:** March 24, 2009, 05:37:09 PM »

Quote from: Iggy on March 24, 2009, 05:33:32 PM

For my purposes of just getting it to work I didn't realize the adjuster was so critical so I left them off during the bleed. I'll bet (assuming I actually do have the geometry of the caliper to disk right) that dropping them in there and adjusting as you say solves it.

So. Close. To. Rideable.

Without the proper adjustment on the B pad, it could be a struggle to get them bled.

ev0lve · « **Reply #81 on:** March 24, 2009, 05:38:48 PM »

Didn't seem to be but it probably explains the sponginess I was racking up to the stock MC.

goon 1492 · « **Reply #82 on:** March 25, 2009, 06:45:12 AM »

Thank you MCRider, I only have limited time I get to spend on a computer or I would have researched it for a better explanation to Iggy, that also clears up any fuzzy memories of the last time I read it. Time to copy paste and print for my log book.

ev0lve · « **Reply #83 on:** March 26, 2009, 09:34:09 AM »

Hmmm,

It seems Z1 has all the stainless braided bits in multiple sizes, shapes etc you could ever want and reasonably priced too - right down to the hard line replacement plugs.

All of it
http://www.z1enterprises.com/catalog.aspx?pid=MFGO0

Brake Hose Stainless Steel 10MM STRAIGHT BANJO FITTING - 9.63
http://www.z1enterprises.com/detail.aspx?ID=3533

Brake Hose 833 Series, Colorflex Clear Coat 40'' With Stainless Steel Swivels - 29.20
http://www.z1enterprises.com/detail.aspx?ID=3530

Brake Hose 3/8" CRUSH WASHERS (10-Pk) - 4.44
http://www.z1enterprises.com/detail.aspx?ID=3348

Brake Hose 10MM X 1.0 Double BANJO BOLT Chrome - 8.14
http://www.z1enterprises.com/detail.aspx?ID=3347

Brake Light Switch Double Banjo Bolt - 10mm x 1.00mm
http://www.z1enterprises.com/detail.aspx?ID=3976

Brake Fitting Adapter - Male JIC-3 to Male JIC-3 - 6.58
http://www.z1enterprises.com/detail.aspx?ID=3381

http://www.z1enterprises.com/detail.aspx?ID=3342

That seems to be all the pieces required to run straight from the master I think. A little over a $100 for the whole kit assuming it's about 40" from the master to the calipers.

Edit: With the GL1000 Fronted it looks like I need 2 36in hoses
http://www.z1enterprises.com/detail.aspx?ID=3336

2 Straight Banjos
http://www.z1enterprises.com/detail.aspx?ID=3533

goon 1492 · « **Reply #84 on:** March 26, 2009, 09:47:14 AM »

Holy super link's batman!

MCRider · « **Reply #85 on:** March 26, 2009, 09:56:07 AM »

Yes nice stuff. They have 90 degree banjos which may get your lines running in the right direction quicker and cleaner than the straight banjos. Couple extra bucks.

ev0lve · « **Reply #86 on:** March 27, 2009, 08:23:53 PM »

Well, no success today in riding it away but maybe I can garner some opinions. The caliper adjustment screws are a major pain to get a flathead screwdriver on when both calipers are mounted up so I decided to replace the screws with bolts. Back to the FAQ:

Quote

Ok now we have the pivot arm all nice and parallel, you would have also noticed by now, that you have to try and get bolt done up when the wheel is on, don’t uses socket head caps screws as the mounting bolts like I did, you eve tried getting an allen key between a wheel to do them up!!!, stick to bolts for this application,

I still don't know what the heck this is referring to in my application but it gave me an idea

Quote

Ok now you should have the pivot arm, ad the guard fitted, and everything should still be parallel, now to fit the adjuster screw, you will notice that the adjuster screw mount on the fork is in a different spot to the other fork, hence why I put the lock nut on the inside , there just wasn’t any room on the outside, you will see this in figure 4.

OK. Sure. I'll steal a couple ideas here (and hopefully you guys will tell me it won't get me killed out on the road).

The original adjuster is kind of a scalloped(?) head screw with a slot in the end. It's also nearly impossible for me to get a screwdriver on reliably. So I went to the local hardware store and got some of these: 6mm x 50mm bolt and allen head.

Decided to use the bolt as opposed to the allen since I couldn't get an allen wrench inside there either but a 10mm wrench works fine a quarter turn at time. Here's the plan (added a washer to the outside bolt head as well since that seemed like a good idea).

The hanger and hole

Trying to get everything in there

Screwing it in

Done

Does this look viable? I still have a locked wheel but that'll have to wait till next week when I'll have time to disassemble it all and start from 0.
Thanks!

ev0lve · « **Reply #87 on:** March 29, 2009, 07:06:04 PM »

Hmmm, this officially puts me over a $100 for the master cylinder. 1 rebuild of the stock, 1 unusable ZL1000, 1 broke Katana MC, 1 Katana rebuild kit in the Katana MC that STILL won't move any fluid and now... off a supposedly working 600 Bandit.

3rd times a charm? Probably should have just bought one new and been done with it.

Edit:
Yep. This one was hosed as well. Just buy a new one.

goon 1492 · « **Reply #88 on:** March 30, 2009, 06:49:44 AM »

That MC business looks frustrating, Hey is that lock nut for the adjuster screw suppost to be on the outside of the fork mounting spot?

ev0lve · « **Reply #89 on:** March 30, 2009, 08:48:04 AM »

Quote from: goon 1492 on March 30, 2009, 06:49:44 AM

That MC business looks frustrating, Hey is that lock nut for the adjuster screw suppost to be on the outside of the fork mounting spot?

Yep. That's why I'm asking. The FAQ writer did the same thing so I think it should OK as far as how much tension the spring is under

Quote

now to fit the adjuster screw, you will notice that the adjuster screw mount on the fork is in a different spot to the other fork, hence why I put the lock nut on the inside , there just wasn’t any room on the outside, you will see this in figure

Also I couldn't get a bolt that wasn't too long. 50mm just snugs up to the lip of the outside of the hole (that sentence confuses me and I wrote it) so no way to get the nut on the outside. Functionally I "think" it's the same. In practice though I don't know.

You can't see it in the pic but the bolt is just peeking through on the right hand side.

goon 1492 · « **Reply #90 on:** March 30, 2009, 09:22:27 AM »

Holy crap that is a tight spot

, I think I missed that part of the FAQ I will have to go back and re-read because I understand exactly what you say. Looks like I am going to get some hardware like you did and do the same. This will be an awesome update to the faq when you are done Iggy. You are finding all the good and bad that we all are and will come into. Even though you probably think differently about the situation after all the frustration you are going through. Don't worry I will be doing the same thing this weekend if my parts come in by then. I can then show you my version of the frustration and we can laugh together.

ev0lve · « **Reply #91 on:** March 30, 2009, 09:27:05 AM »

"The pain will go away as soon as it stops hurting."
- Alex Van Halen

ev0lve · « **Reply #92 on:** March 30, 2009, 04:20:15 PM »

Just for my reference:

LED tail light setup in the stock lense

goon 1492 · « **Reply #93 on:** April 02, 2009, 03:32:48 PM »

Hey you should look up dennis kirk, they have a TON of new led bulbs that are made to fir our bikes. Direct swap and they even have the correct DOT brake light that has two special led's aimed at the lisence plate too. Even the ones that are side lit for the front blinkers.

Your setup is kewl though and will definetly stand out to talk about.

ev0lve · « **Reply #94 on:** April 02, 2009, 04:25:20 PM »

Ahh, that's ev0lution7's setup. Check out the thread - he made his up custom.

Poking around at Dennis Kirk I didn't find anything that looked like a drop in replacement. Would you post an url?

ev0lve · « **Reply #95 on:** April 04, 2009, 09:47:52 AM »

Welp, turns out I may be losing some focus here around the 7 - 8 month mark. Wanting to get the bike on the road asap I'm making dumb mistakes. For example, the locked up front wheel... that's a caliper that won't retract. Not sure how I gooned that. That'll be next weeks adventure.

The left one works fine and I was sorely tempted just to bolt it back together and ride it away with just one but came home instead since there's a few other things that need to get worked out - turn signals that light up but don't blink and so forth.

Some more pics just for fun.

Tight fit with the calipers on backwards

It's stuck good! Where's my screwdriver?

Final thoughts

ev0lve · « **Reply #96 on:** April 04, 2009, 10:23:27 AM »

Got a few other things done though. Gave the bike a tune up and managed to goof that as well - must focus.

Tune-up's are pretty easy it seems and I think (at least standing still - we'll see once it's got a load on it) the throttle seems more responsive. Little quicker than it was untuned to get up and down.

The points

Two screws and out they come - mine took an impact driver to get em loose. Looking at the heads it seems the PO didn't have one as they're pretty nicely rounded

Off comes the points plate

and then the mechanical advance - from anything I can find this isn't worn too badly?

And then I thought I'd try and make sure the shaft was straight as the timing light showed some flutter in the window at idle and I've read this shaft being slightly bent is the reason and makes it a little jumpy at idle

Mostly failure. I think I'd like to blame the tool here. This one is from Harbor Freight and has a pair of vice grips and stand that has a wire running through it that you tighten up to make it stable. Pretty sure that getup sucks as I couldn't get it to stay stable to save my life. Of course blaming your tools is like saying you're a crap musician because your instrument's cheap.

At any rate I tapped it a couple times as it did have a slight wobble but never got a decent baseline. So I left it at about half a mm or so (I think - my gauge is in inches - see the rim truing debacle for more)

Cleaned up the points, lubed the cam with some moly I've got left over from engine assembly, slapped it all back together, gapped the points, timed up 1-4 and 2-3 (the manual mentions the use of a dwell meter. I don't have a dwell meter so maybe next time) and then found I had some red sparks coming out of the 2-3 points.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=49167.msg519696#msg519696

Turns out that was another attention to detail issue as I'd put the condenser connection back on with washers on both sides of it. The actual order is washer - washer - condenser - insulator

Then I got a chance to use the Morgan Carbtune. This thing is AWESOME compared to the Motion Pro. Don't even think about buying a Motion Pro sync. Seriously. Here's what happened the first time I hooked up the Motion Pro. Suckage.

Also, get the brass fittings for the Carbtune if you do. The nylon ones are way difficult to get onto 2 and 3 so I scavenged the fittings from the Motion Pro. Hooked it up and get this

Maybe that explains the number 1 sparkplugs black deposits compared to the rest when I did a chop awhile back?

Fiddle with the adjusters and get this

Much better - more responsive. Easy too. The advice I culled was to pick the one farthest out and adjust in pairs. So I did. Seemed to work pretty well. There's still some flutter in the gauge at idle (tweaked shaft on the points cam showing it's effect?) but maybe that's normal.

Also attempted to replace the tach seal. Turns out I got sold the wrong seal - just a hair too tall which I figured out after seating it and not being able to get the screw in without chewing it up. Replaced with the original and it doesn't seem to leak so...

and finally laid down a second coat of epoxy appliance paint on the side covers after wetsanding the first coat. They seem to have come out pretty reasonably.

If you're wondering what the roughness is on the left one - the PO had attached the badges with some kind of rubberized sealant. Scrapped it off as best I could but didn't get it all up.

Next week I'll buff them a bit and refit the badges with trim tape. Hope that will hold them in place.

ev0lve · « **Reply #97 on:** April 07, 2009, 12:02:41 PM »

I've removed the front turn-signals and now (looking from the rear of the bike) the left lights up solid but doesn't blink and the right doesn't light up at all.

Reading up on turn signals or the lack of them:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=40168

Quote

My bike is a 750 but here's how I fixed mine:

The power will go to the flasher unit first, then go via a grey wire to your handle bar blinker switch. Via a blue for one side, orange for the other it will split to go to the front, and back blinker, and each blinker will go back to ground via a green wire.

I individually checked each blinker light by plugging the colored wire blue or orange (+) from each blinker directly to the battery, and the green (ground) directly to a known ground.

If the light turns on steady, keep the plus plugged to the battery, plug the green to the corresponding plug. If light stays on, you have a good ground, if it doesn't light up you have a bad ground.

Then test the plus side, connect the grey wire coming to the handlebars directly to the battery, bypassing the flasher, and see if ur blinkers turn on steady.

After all that, if everything turns on, you probably have a bad flasher unit. Anyway, I would replace the flasher for the heck of it, it's less than $4 at your local autoparts, and u r sure it works.

Since I've removed the fronts this like a good tip.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=34739.0

Quote

On your bike, the turn signal wire colors are as follows:
Rt. Turn Signal: light blue
Rt. Marker: light blue with white stripe
Lt. Turn Signal: light orange
Lt. Marker: light orange with white stripe
Only the front signals are lit (marker lights) all the time. The same wires that control the front turn signals control the back ones. As you have discovered, the turn signal wires run through a different connector as opposed to the wires for the marker lights.

Quote

Any large resistance will cause them to not blink. Bad terminal connections for example.

Also low voltage will cause that. Such as at idle.

If they blink at 3000 RPM but not at idle ....clean the connections and try a new flasher relay.

Quote

Check the rear grounds. Make sure the wires are tight to the U shaped clamps and the clamps are tight against the rear grab bar. Took me a while to figure out why I had an intermittent no blinker poblem.

Quote

pull off the lens and take a spare piece of wire and hold it on a good ground and the lamp area. If it still doesn't work it's not a ground issue on that one.

Quote

If just one (front or back) lights up, check for a bad bulb or connection. If both on either side light up but don't blink, replace the flasher relay. They now make electronic flasher relays that just have two connections. I just installed one on my 550 and for less than 10 bucks, they can't be beat....

and more. I've fiddled and cleaned all of this. Maybe a bit too much?

Quote

Also, where is the relay located on the bike?
On my 750 it's under the left (as sitting on the bike) side cover.

TwoTired explains the use of a meter here
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=8059.0

Quote

Okay, you have an analog type meter.
You'll be using the 1k ohm setting to measure ohms or continuity but only when the circuit is disconnected from power.

When the circuit is powered, you will be using the DCV 50 setting. Use the meter scale number row that ends with 50.

If you want to chase where power is or isn't distributed in the wiring, attach the black negative probe to the battery minus terminal. Then anywhere you put the red probe, the meter will show a voltage on the scale. Try it on the battery plus terminal and then on each end of the fuse terminals with the ignition switch on. You should read nearly the battery voltage (two ticks over 10 on the 50 scale) on those clips. If one end is dead, you have a bad fuse.

If you wish to verify the fuse has no continuity with your meter. Either disconnect one of the battery terminals, or remove the fuse from it's holder, change your meter to the 1K ohm setting and place a probe at each end of the fuse. A good fuse will cause a meter deflection near zero on the scale, a bad one will show no movement or near infinity on the scale.

General Wiring overview from the FAQ
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=1012.msg188242#msg188242

Quote

Lighting
Brown- Tail Light Power (Main Switch-Tail Light)
Brown/White- Instrumentation Backlighting (Lighting Switch-Instruments)
Orange- Left Turn Signals (Turn Signal Switch-Front/Rear Signals)
Orange/White- Left Front Marker (Light Switch-Marker Lamp)
Light Blue- Right Turn Signals (Turn Signal Switch-Front/Rear Signals)
Light Blue/White- Right Front Marker (Light Switch-Marker Lamp)
Gray- Pulsing Power for Signals (Flasher Relay-Turn Signal Switch)
Blue- High Beam Power (Hi/Lo Switch-Headlamp/Indicator Lamp)
White- Low Beam Power (Hi/Lo Switch-Headlamp)
Brown/Red- Fused Headlamp Power (Fuse Box-Hi/Lo Switch)

and I have a light blue loose in the bucket. Hmmm.

goon 1492 · « **Reply #98 on:** April 07, 2009, 01:17:15 PM »

Looks good Iggy, I had to use the bleeder and let pressure off that way on my caliper when it would stick, I also had a front left trun signal that would go on and off if I shook the birds nest in the headlight bucket enough. Time and sniffing around fixed that, had to pinch the female end of the bullet connector back to gether for a tight fit. Might as well use a touch of dielectric grease on the conectors while your in there.

Also let me look in the dennis catalogue tonight, I have the pages marked that have the led lights and I will post urls' tomorrow, they say these ones are plug and play( all the goodies are built in) even the front ones are at a 90deg bend so they face the front of the bike, good stuff.
Good luck

goon 1492 · « **Reply #99 on:** April 08, 2009, 06:54:13 AM »

Here ya go Iggy look on this page and the one before and after it. Good stuff

Kinda pricy but its worth the money.

http://www.denniskirk.com/jsp/search/search.jsp?searchString=lazer%20star&sort=pricedesc&page=2

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Author Topic: Rebuild for Dummies Redux - v2.0, Mulligan (Read 62406 times)