Topic: Rebuild for Dummies Redux - v2.0, Mulligan

[goon 1492]

Ahh jeeze, that sucks and just when you are quitting smoking...
Good luck Iggy.

[ev0lve]

Well, the quitting smoking came to end after 10 days. Just have to start over on that.

But the really annoying part is I took the coils apart, cleaned up all the connectors, slapped it all back together and blew the main when I turned the key. So I've got 5 15amp fuses in hand now and we'll just have to see what I mucked up by connecting things one at a time till the fuse doesn't blow. Unless someone has a better idea? I'm not sure how to suss it without putting power to it.

[ev0lve]

An update: Runs!

I ended up replacing out the coils, caps, condensors, leads and points.

Tested the caps and one came back bad so replace them all. Same problem.

Switched the power to the coils and 2-3 still wouldn't fire. Replaced them but still ran like crap - albeit on 4 cylinders.

Replaced the points and condensors. Magic.

I wouldn't have thought a quick pressure wash would do that much damage - seems unlikely to have all three things go bad or near bad all at once. But there you go. Back on the road!

[ev0lve]

Some dual disk observations...

The late model CBR master cylinder works pretty well but I really have to apply some pressure to get it to perform like I think it should - and that's cranking down on it from the far end of the handle. No stoppies for me. Wooden I think it's called. Not sure what the bore is in it (anyone know? 1999 - 2004 CBR600 MC?)

At any rate, the search for the perfect MC continues.

On the brighter side - anti-squeal is the poop. Brakes are quiet as the proverbial mouse now.

[goon 1492]

Hmm that sounds interesting about the MC, I dig the quiet part too.
I wonder how comparable that MC is to a goldwing MC from the mid 70's
Other than the extra gripping on the MC it sounds like a good deal, just need to get used to a different MC.

[ev0lve]

Even my local Honda shop doesn't know the bore of a late model CBR master cylinder and I can't find any reference online. Think I'll save up some lunch money and pick up one of those new 14mm jobs with the perch for the mirror and see what that does - the stock 14mm seemed to bite a little harder but I'm pretty sure the bore must have been worn or I flubbed the rebuild somehow since it had to be pumped a few times. We'll see.

Squeal is back intermittently - more mittent than inter at the moment. I'm running without the adjusters though so maybe throwing them back in the mix will do the trick. Less than 500 miles since putting them back on. I suppose that's enough to have some measurable wear on the pads - enough to let them jitter occasionally.

And still getting low 40s MPG. If I didn't want to cruise in 5th at 5000 RPM that might be better. Rotors are cool to the touch after 50 miles so not dragging that I can tell or hear. Not sure if I want a smaller (wait larger? Brain fade) sprocket.

Other than that and some pop on decel that's annoying me it's running like a top  

[ev0lve]

Yarg. The squeal has become an intermittent shriek. Happens when rolling the bike back and forth as well. Got in front of it and rolled it forward and back so I could maybe localize it and what do you know

it's the caliper with the generic brown pads that had to be sanded down to fit in the bore.

So I figure there's only three things that can be going wrong here:
The caliper is out of alignment on the hanger - unlikely I think as it had been fine for a few months and got better with the anti-squeal. Basically it would have to be coming loose yes?

The dings in the piston are hanging up in the seal and not letting it retract. I think that's unlikely as well but a better chance.

The farging generic crap pads don't quite fit and have decided after a 1000 miles they're going to cock in the bore or just not slide in and out nicely for whatever reason. I'm going with that for the first try.

Never ever ever buy the brown pads. Ever.

Sigh. Still running great otherwise though 

[fastbroshi]

  Iggy are u still having sqealing brake issues?  I went through and read several pages of this and noticed the adjuster nut on the end of the slotted screw that goes through pad B's "arm" to fork is situated wrong.  It DOES go on the outside.  
  If you think about it, the nut on the outside is what would apply better locking force.  The threads in the fork are there for a brace of sorts, not to apply any tightening pressure.  The face of the fork is there for the nut to apply this friction.  Maybe the way you had it allowed the threads on the screw to stetch somewhat and are causing it to misalign that arm.
  The hint is the slot in the edge of the screw.  Turn counterclockwise on the screw, clockwise on the nut and it should tighten up good.  Oh and speedbleeders really help speed up the bleeding process.

[ev0lve]

Hey there fastbroshi! Thanks for posting.

Yours are on the front of the forks? Maybe the angle of the pic is throwing me off. At this point I can't even remember what they looked like mounted forwards 

I think you've got a point there though. One of the originals had the slot broken so I replaced mine with the 50mm screws - along with it was impossible to get a screw driver to the head with them turned backwards. Currently running without any adjusters at all though. I think I'll order up a spare stock adjuster screw and thread it by hand for the first batch.

On the way I had them set up though I think it should have worked except with less adjustability (spring under more compression).

It'll take some fiddling. I think I'll toss the brown pads when I get a chance just to see if it makes a difference. Science!

On a silver lining side just got back from a 200 mile ride and averaged 52 miles per gallon on the first leg so I can shut up about gas mileage - seems the 750 really wants to run at 5000 rpm all day long.

Flipside - On the way back though, I lost a cylinder below 4000 rpm and it sounded like a lawnmower. Would come right back over 5000 though. Parked it and there's a nice puddle of gas coming out of the overflows.

So stuck float/crap in the needle? What the heck? Just have to note which tube is pissing and see if some rapping on the bowl helps for now as it'll be a couple weeks before I'll have the time to pull the carbs otherwise.

[fastbroshi]

   My screw had been broken too, so I shelled out the $7 or whatever silly price they wanted.  Looking back I spent a little chunk on hardware getting mine back on the road: top end gaskets, caliper seals, brake pads, tires, carb kits, points.  Mine was sorted better than yours when I first got it, except for my airbox. 
   
   I'll be damned, 52mpg? how are you not running lean?  Good gawd

[ev0lve]

   I'll be damned, 52mpg? how are you not running lean?  Good gawd

No clue. It's been consistently 42-43 the last 6 months or so mixed city/highway. This is the first time I took it out 100+ miles non-stop though. 104 miles on the trip odometer - 2 gallons gas on fill-up. Nice.

There was a thread where folks were posting MPG and guys talking mid 50's consistently. I think they must be all interstate all the time. One way or another I'm satisfied (asides from the float weirdness anyway).

[ev0lve]

Hmmmm, pissing gas out the airbox this morning. I think I may have to join the inline filter club.

[ev0lve]

More on the care and feeding of your 35 year old motorcycle.

Well, there's your problem


Not much in the bowls - fine grit - so I'll get to clean the carbs again. The floats are fine. I'm thinking the gas uptake gets clogged somehow and the float valve doesn't shut off? Not sure but getting the crap out of #3 should bring it back into trim - I hope.


Hit the tank with The Works


Rinse with water then acetone - fill with gas


damn. Pinhole leak.

So The Works works great. Just chuck in some nuts and drywall screws, plug the bung with a plastic wine cork and shake it up for an hour or so. Rinse with water then acetone (acetone came out brown) and most of the crap in the tank is gone. Maybe too much. Maybe I didn't need to leave it in there for an hour. I don't know.

Permatex gas tank repair in hand. Hopefully get it all back together and the carbs synced up Monday and I won't foul my carbs for a couple years.

[ev0lve]

More on the dual disks:

This can't be good.


Not sure what's going on here except that I have the hanger out of alignment diagonally to the rotor - or, maybe, the crappy brown pad had cocked in the bore. That makes some sense to me as it would squeal and applying the brake would stop it. Sometimes it would squeal with the bars turned as well.

The static pad has even wear all the way across.

Replaced with EBC pads to match the left. If it's a matter of it having to wear down to a certain point before squealing I won't know one way or another for another 500 miles or more.

If you've got ideas I'm all ears.

[ev0lve]

Here's the thread about The Works
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=31970.0

Fellow says he had it in his tank for about 15 minutes. I had mine in for about an hour so... one more borked part due to ignorance/willfulness. I figured if 15 minutes was good - you know the rest.

End result is 10 pinhole leaks plugged with Permatex and it still sweats gas. Kreem kit ordered. Hopefully that'll be the end of it.

Edit:
Since The Works says it only goes after rust and not bare metal I was in for leaks sooner or later anyways.

[ev0lve]

Kreem threads:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=7830.0

Like most "do it yourself" products, Kreem is the victim of the fools who applied it

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=33746.0
18 years to failure - gas or age

That's enough. Looks like there's two camps on the subject of Kreem and most of it revolves around it sucks and how well did you do the prep. Oy. 24 - 48 hours depending. Well, if it lasts 18 years that's a small price to pay.

The Kreem instructions

SURFACE PREPARATION:

It is critical that the inside of the tank have an oil-free surface without rust to insure proper adhesion. We recommend Kreem Tank-Prep Kit A & B, our two part system for rust removal and metal etching.

Wash out tank with hot soapy water. If the tank if badly rusted and has loose flaky rust add stones or nuts and bolts and agitate to remove the loose rust. For new tanks it is important to remove the oily protective coating. An industrial strength detergent, or a commercial degreaser/cleaner like KREEM’s new Tank Cleaner/Degreaser, acetone, M.E.K. should be used.

After completing step 1, and to obtain maximum adhesion, the surface rust should be removed and the metal surface etched, this can be accomplished by using Kreem Tank Prep A & B Kit, or some other acid based rust remover that also etches metal. Repeat if necessary until all rust is removed.

Rinse tank with water until all traces of Tank-Prep A (acid etch) are removed. Drain out excess water. Using Tank-Prep B (acetone or M.E.K.) rinse thoroughly removing trace amounts of water. CAUTION: these chemicals are flammable. The tank is now ready for immediate coating.
APPLICATION
Shake or stir well before use. Keep container tightly closed when not in use. Stop all outlets except fill spout.

Pour Liner into tank and coat entire inner surface by slowly rotating tank in all directions.When all surfaces have been completely coated, a generous excess should remain. Let tank stand for 8-10 minutes with spout open, then close spout and slowly rotate tank allowing excess to re-coat all surfaces. Let tank stand for an additional 8-10 minutes with spout open however, this time on a different side. Repeat this until the tank has the desired coating. Do not allow coating to drain to one area and dry. Drain off excess coating for later use.

Drain any excess, remove all stops and allow to air-dry in a well ventilated area for at least 24 hours. A nozzle from a low pressure air compressor blowing lightly into the fuel spout and out another opening will greatly reduce setup time.

For extra protection, air-dry first coat for 6 hours or longer and repeat step 2 of application process.

More Kreem instructions
http://www.sense.net/~blaine/kreem.html

"allow the air pump to run for another two days minimum"

"#4 - Drying/curing time:
Unseal all tank openings.  Allow the coating to air-dry for at least 24 hours in a well-ventilated area.  If possible extend the drying time to 96 hours (4 days).  A nozzle of a low pressure air compressor blowing into the fuel inlet and out another hole can shorten the drying/curing time.

Hmmm, so I can ride again sometime around the 24th   When do I graduate to knowing what the hell I'm doing...

From www.kreemproducts.net

What can I use to plug small threaded openings?
Use threaded pipe plugs, rubber stoppers, small wooden dowels, silicone caulking. DO NOT USE duct tape. It doesn’t work.

How do I cover large openings, sending units, petcocks, etc.?
Use a piece of wood or metal large enough to cover the opening. Drill holes to allow the plate to be bolted or screwed onto the tank. Fabricate a gasket out of rubber or gasket material and sandwich between the tank and the plate. Secure to the tank with screws or bolts.

MCRider to the rescue
It takes a 1/2" FIP (Female Iron Pipe) cap <--- How awesome is that - fitting sizes


And fmctm1sw says
BTW, a 47-50mm freeze plug works perfectly as a seal for the gas cap


Also
I used a cork to seal up the tank outlet and a rubber band w/ latex glove to seal the gas cap opening.

More incidental Kreem tank lining comments:

the most common reason I've seen for Kreem'd tank liners to fail in tanks which have been properly and thoroughly etched is allowing too much time to elaspe prior to getting the tank rinsed and chased with acetone

it is certain the bright gray metal will oxidize quickly and even the slightest hint of golden scale forming means repeat the etching and following steps again otherwise it will surely fail

Harley guy answers a question:

Is the tank liner you used called "Kreem"? If it is, then I would guess that you waited to long after pouring out the etch nuetralizer and you had too much flash rust when you poured in the Kreem coat. In the Kreem process you literally pour out the nuetralizer and within seconds pour the Kreem coat in.

6- put aside a weekend to do this as it's bloody tedious

So with Kreem (and I assume any of the other tank liners) prep, prep, more prep, thoroughness getting it spread around, maybe a second coat and anywhere from 2 days to a week to let it cure. Oy.

[D-Mart]

Dude! Nice write-up! I will be referencing this one frequently.

[goon 1492]

Breaker breaker 19 what's your handle?
Wow Iggy you just keep coming up with good info, sucks the troubles you've had but good thigs are coming out of it. Keep on truckin'!
over.

[ev0lve]

Thanks man! Pretty much all of the weirdness can be racked up to user error/stupidity Eventually I'll become undumb. Think I've become a believer in inline filters though (properly placed of course).

[ev0lve]

So the tank is Kreemed and curing at this point for the next 4 days. I'll head up and put some gas in it Wednesday.

Thought I'd just report on the experience.

MCRider is spot on with the FIP fitting and I couldn't find a freeze plug that big at my local auto store so Ace came through with a 50mm rubber plug. Worked like a charm.

I posted a couple of questions about plugs and the final results here and here
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=60187.msg652697
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=59984.msg650338
Second post has some info on Kreem's ability to hold up to various alcohols and the first asks if I did it right. Mostly nobody knows  

The process is pretty tedious but here's the rundown.

Tank Prep A - Phosphoric Acid
Since I'd already run the works through it the tank was reasonably clean to begin with so I dropped the Tank Prep in for a half hour all by itself and swished it around then filled it up to the spout with hot water for 3 more.

Level off the tank since it'll start producing gas (hydrogen?) and will spill acid on your paint when it burbles. Ask me how I know   The visqueen is in case it started leaking - which it did. Came through the permatex in about an hour. Kind of a losing proposition filling it back to the spout as the acid just gets weaker and weaker. Three hours looked to be enough for me. I hope.


The acid will clear up the tank right nice but the spout end still ended up with some flash rust on it. It will wipe right off with some vigorous rubbing though.

Tank Prep B is MEK and exceptionally nasty. Maybe 3-5 minutes swishing it around with the tank plugged then out the petcock and the rest out the spout.

One thing I wished I'd ordered in retrospect is the tank mask.


Ended up with some streaks I think'll rub out and I had waxed it up prior to starting the job but still would have been nice to have on hand I think.

Once the MEK is out it's straight on to the liner immediately - jam in the plugs and start slowly turning. Instructions are to coat the inside, unplug the spout, let it sit 8 - 10 minutes, coat the inside, unplug the spout, let it sit on another side 8 - 10 minutes etc etc etc. I went at it for 3 hours drained off about a 1/4 inch of liner back into the 16 oz container and this is what I saw.




Kind of worrisome as I expected it to be all white. Asked the board and the answer is no one really knows. Might have borked the cleaning. Might be fatally flawed. Might need a second coat but I ended up dumping the dregs back in which was just enough to skim the bottom again so 16oz seems to be just enough for a 4.25 Gallon tank.

Overall, the RedKote/POR-15 folks may have a point I think. Nicer to KNOW that your liner has created some serious molecular bond with your tank rather than a handshake. Time will tell.

[ev0lve]

It's been a week or two and no leaks in the tank so that seems to have been successful. I suppose this time next year will be the real tell. One lesson learned - don't attempt to reuse the float bowl gaskets 

Brakes are still excessively squeally even with the adjustors in. Found this post over at Do The Ton that might account for it - wear in the bore that the pad sits in lets it get cocked at an angle. That makes some sense to me as it's intermittent - grabbing a handful of brake makes it go away for a bit.

http://dotheton.com/index.php?topic=10960.msg100438#msg100438

I feel that the combination of the irregularities and scarring on the walls along with the domed cap of the piston result in the pad becoming slanted during bleeding or use. By slanted, I'm talking a very minimal, maybe ~ 1/50" of an inch (guesstimate, no actual measurements were taken). This angle cause the pad to bind on the caliper wall, not allowing the pad to retract with the piston. The bind is not self fixing by excessive bleeding, in this case.

I drew a cross-section(quite terribly though) of what i am talking about.
FIGURE 1

I'll just wait til I can replace the lines straight through to the calipers and get a 14mm MC to tear it all down again and recheck. Apologies to anyone within earshot of me coming to a stop until then   

[ev0lve]

Not much to see here. The current 2.0 plan is to work the front of the machine to the rear. About had it with my sticky caliper/wobbly suspension so swapping out the frontend for a 76 GL1000 Goldwing. Collecting threads while I wait for bits and accumulate cash.

Pretty much everything there is to know on a CB750 - GL1000 frontend swap
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=48488.0

FishHead - Tapered bearings
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=46084.msg484557#msg484557
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=46362.msg486489#msg486489

Product Code: 22-1011 Same for CB750K and GL1000 just like Fishhead says
http://www.goallballs.com/SHOP/shopexd.asp?pagefrom=Ret&id=582

Randakk's GL1000 Tips
Tires
http://www.randakks.com/TechTip35.htm
Removing Stiction from GL1000 Front Forks
http://www.randakks.com/TechTip58.htm
Brake Bleeding
http://www.randakks.com/TechTip28.htm
Worn Brake Lever
http://www.randakks.com/TechTip18.htm

RaceTech cartridge emulators


Paulages posts pics
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=29543.msg319607#msg319607

Superbrace - Markland appears to be the period brace to search for
SuperBrace - Currently $187

http://www.superbrace.com/proddetail.asp?prod=2209
FastFromThePast has one as well - $99 - listed as 79 though

http://www.fastfromthepast.com/servlet/the-509/Fork-Brace-Honda-GL1000K3/Detail

The GoldWing came with shouldered DID rims. Lacing them to a rear 750K hub seems to require some spokes I can only source from Buchanan - $120 currently
http://www.buchananspokes.net/

Apparently the CB750A shares rims with the 75-76 Goldwing so an alternative would be to pick up an A rear rim if you can find one in reasonable shape as it's a straight swap.

Since I bought the whole rim, spokes and hub it turns out I can lace my K hub to the GL rim using the spokes from the GL. Now I can finance the clipons! 
Details here
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=69160.msg765185#msg765185

Tire fitment chart from Tower and an excellent conversation
Rim width recommendations?
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=56494.msg609309#msg609309

Motorcycle Fork Tube Diameters - I'm interested in the 37mm batch but it lists from 33 - 37mm
http://dotheton.com/index.php?topic=1090.0

CXTEX - not sure who he is on this board
http://dotheton.com/index.php?topic=4875.msg75076#msg75076
Shaved top triple

Forks in the triples

[andy750]

Iggy just want to say your thread has some great info in it and I really appreciate all the links you have sourced. Thanks!

Andy

[ev0lve]

Iggy just want to say your thread has some great info in it and I really appreciate all the links you have sourced. Thanks!

Andy

Can't give back to the board with actual knowledge so I figure the least I can do is keyword the links for everybody doing a search 

[SohRon]

Great thread, Iggy! Very informative... thanks for doing all of the research. This thread s/b part of the FAQ, IMHO!